Re: [Teaching_Composition] Writing transfer from English to other la= nguages

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http://mail.yahoo.com --0-1943630682-1192601056=:95747-- From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Thu Oct 18 02:58:04 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Edmund Jones) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 21:58:04 -0400 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Kathy's tour of an online DSP site In-Reply-To: <20071016153812.9610F7580A6@smtpauth00.csee.onr.siteprotect.com> Message-ID: This is a multipart message in MIME format. --=_alternative 000ABD9185257378_= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 RGVhciBLYXRoeSwNCg0KSSBlbmpveWVkIHJlYWRpbmcgeW91ciB0cmF2ZWwgam91cm5hbCBhcyB5 b3UgdG9vayBhbiBvZmYtc2Vhc29uIHRvdXIgb2YgDQp0aGUgdmlydHVhbCBEU1Agc2l0ZSBhdCBT ZXRvbiBIYWxsLiAgKFRoZSBnbGl0Y2ggeW91IGVuY291bnRlcmVkIGhhcyBiZWVuIA0KZml4ZWQs IGJ5IHRoZSB3YXkuKSANCg0KSXQgd2FzIGZhc2NpbmF0ZWQgdG8gaGVhciB5b3VyIHJlYWN0aW9u cywgYW5kIHN1cnByaXNpbmcuICBJIGhhdmVuJ3QgDQplbmNvdW50ZXJlZCBhbnkgcmVzcG9uc2Ug bGlrZSB5b3VycywgdGhvdWdoIHRoYXQgZG9lc24ndCBtZWFuIHRoZXJlIA0Kd2VyZW4ndCBhbnku 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(Kathy Fitch) Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2007 08:43:42 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Kathy's tour of an online DSP site In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071018131711.1F5191C8080@smtpauth01.csee.onr.siteprotect.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_008D_01C81162.FD69B690 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Ed-you're very generous. Well, at 18 (actually, I was still seventeen when making these decisions), I probably would also have placed myself in the standard issue College English I with this system, and I'm sure that would have worked out fine, but I wonder if maybe the intensive version would have been a good fit, too. I don't know. I don't think I'd have called anyone, no. My h.s. graduating class had a grand total of about 45 students in it, and this was a public school. Heading into college, I was not exactly the worldliest person ever, and can pretty safely say I would have just placed myself in the normal course without talking to anyone-especially if I had to initiate the talk. But, I'd likely have been pretty motivated to avoid getting any call that the English placement folks initiated, too. So, even though I'd balk, I'd end up having to do the best I possibly could on the self test, and would have fully identified it as an "other" test of the standard-issue variety. We didn't have these online tools then, but I'm sure I would have been smart enough to figure out that the self test would enter the system and get at least the once over by someone looking to find the really poor ones. That's a call that would likely have seemed potentially humiliating. So, I suppose the bottom line is that I wouldn't have believed in the "self" portion of this at all The test would trump the literacy survey. Add to that all of our teachers' warnings about how GPAs tend to drop a whole point in the shift from college to h.s. (I believed them!), and I'd never have had the temerity to self-place in the more intensive course (even though the ink was barely dry on my h.s. English award, which would have seemed a little piddling nothing in the face of a placement test that wants to know how I handle writing struggles, and then asks me to demonstrate that). Teacher side. Yeah, we often don't have much to go on, and that's frustrating, but I've generally been in a setting where there's some wiggle room, so that students can be directed to courses that are a better fit if you discover, early on, that they're either struggling or ready for something more. On the other hand, sometimes even then, students choose to stay put. First year of college is such an overwhelming time, isn't it? I think it's easy to forget that. So, I suggested and encouraged, but never pressed. The students who were so intimidated by college that they chose to stay in developmental courses despite clearly having the skill to place higher were welcome to stay and build their confidence, and the ones who might have been better placed in the developmental or ESL course but were determined to give the standard issue 101 a whirl were welcome, too. Some students were yearning for the honors course and thrilled when I suggested that; others figured it sounded like way too much work to be an "honors" anything, though the lure of the tuition break could sometimes sway them. The smaller cohort of honors students (almost a cluster-a little society within the larger one) was about equally attractive and repellent, I think. As both student and teacher, I've seen that for quite a few students, one of the main benefits of FYC is that the class size tends to be relatively small. Here's a place where the teacher knows your name, knows you by sight, and could often identify your writing even if it didn't have your name on it. This is a class in which students are likely to make a friend or two. They tend to remember their teachers, too, long after the experience is over. I can still name my FYC teachers. At the time, I didn't even know they were grad students. Couldn't tell you who taught the mass classes, though. We often discuss and debate the place of FYC as a core course. It's easy to forget that it's often a social anchor in this new academic world, as well (the social part of the academic life, I mean, which is key thing)-one of the first places to become a college student in a smaller setting with a teacher who treats you like the real college student you maybe aren't quite, yet. I expect the situation I described earlier-a broad range of ability levels in one course-is pretty common. Because of the relatively small setting, that can be less problematic than it sometimes is in a larger course. (Back to 17/18 year old self. I attended the math course my test scores placed me into precisely once. I could see right away that in that large course I was not only lost, but likely to remain so, and immediately opted for the more basic version. Still big, but survivable.) The thorniest issue in placement for us-and we worked hard on making this better-was really that not all sections of any given course in the sequence were created equal. They could, in fact, be wildly dissimilar. A good placement could be undone by that, and a "bad" one could be alleviated. So, a big issue in placement for teacher me remains the focus on what, exactly, we're placing students into: are we clear on what English I will, essentially, be, no matter the section? And are we ensuring that our materials-including course schedule books-actually make it as easy as possible for students to see what they're getting into? Even something as simple as a highly tech enhanced vs. a more traditional approach can make a huge difference. Making the range of possibilities clear is definitely a key aspect of making any self-placement effort a success. Thank you very much for providing the opportunity to explore this, Ed. Very engaging and thought provoking, all around. Maybe all teachers should have a go at approaching their schools' Online DSP instruments in student mode. Kathy _____ From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of Edmund Jones Sent: Wednesday, October 17, 2007 8:58 PM To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Kathy's tour of an online DSP site Dear Kathy, I enjoyed reading your travel journal as you took an off-season tour of the virtual DSP site at Seton Hall. (The glitch you encountered has been fixed, by the way.) It was fascinated to hear your reactions, and surprising. I haven't encountered any response like yours, though that doesn't mean there weren't any. I figured that if you (the high school senior) understood the placement survey as a SELF-placement instrument you would not have been thrown by the "test." After all, you still got to be in charge, instead of being told where you belonged. However, I then realized you felt intimidated by having to make such a big decision--who am I to make such a decision! However, shouldn't we, as faculty, feel similarly intimidated about placing someone we don't know except through a single test? Yes, you're making a decision based upon knowing relatively little about the school you will be attending in the fall (continuing with the fiction here), but in the traditional placement system the faculty have to make a decision knowing relatively little about YOU. I actually find that, in general, students are quite confident about placing themselves in College English I instead of the intensive version of the course. Also, students overwhelmingly reported being glad that they got to make the choice. Nevertheless, I found your reading persuasive, and it makes me want at least to change some of the language on our site. Tell me, did offers at our DSP site of people to talk to for advice not seem very enticing? I can imagine you'd be thinking--what would I want to talk to a stranger for? However, I found that students whom we contacted because we had doubts about their self-placement often seemed grateful to be able to talk things through, or, if not grateful, at least engaged in their attempt to figure out what made sense to them. Ed "Kathy Fitch" Sent by: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com 10/16/2007 12:09 PM Please respond to teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com To cc Subject RE: [Teaching_Composition] Online DSP I think I would have been hugely intimidated by the online DSP tools as an entering freshman. Partly, that's because of my sense that some of the more interactive tools (not just online descriptions and FAQs, but the tools that require some survey taking and writing), seem to pull me in two directions, even lo these many years later, when presumably I'd do fine in any of the courses. On the one hand, the survey questions seem to urge me to base my choice on what I know about myself as a writer, reader, and generally literate person already. So, that part seems confidence inspiring: I earned As in high school writing (the questions about knowing what to do when I'm struggling in writing, and identifying my typical grade range threw me a bit-I didn't struggle, and didn't earn B+ grades, though these are tied to the A range, and no escaping it), sailed through the language portions of college placement tests, love to read and write, etc. Yeah, me. But then (and I wasn't able to access this portion of the Seton version, so I'm just going by the feel of the disjuncture), here's this reading/writing quiz in the middle of it. And even though I'm too old, too far past being a student, and presumably too mature to react this way, my h.s. self came roaring to the surface, and cried, "Boo! A test!" Love to write, love to read, did fine with all of that throughout high school and beyond the confines of school, but I never purposely gave myself a high stakes test before! And, you know, it feels high stakes. I have to give it to myself, grade myself, and then place myself accordingly. And while I'm a fine enough writer and reader, college is a bit scary. The whole of it is utterly mysterious, and here I'm supposed to make a major decision before I even get there, based on a test I give myself, and then evaluate my performance on. I'll be the first in my family to earn a college degree. There's nobody I know to get any thoughts on this test from. My inner Bartleby prefers not to! I'm curious about what students say. Do any them-even or especially fairly good writers-react that way, too? Sail through the literacy survey, then balk at the test? Kathy ------=_NextPart_000_008D_01C81162.FD69B690 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Thanks, Ed—you’re very generous. Well, at 18 (actually, I was still seventeen when making = these decisions), I probably would also have placed myself in the standard = issue College English I with this system, and I’m sure that would have = worked out fine, but I wonder if maybe the intensive version would have been a = good fit, too. I don’t know. I don’t think I’d = have called anyone, no. My h.s. graduating class had a grand total of = about 45 students in it, and this was a public school. Heading into = college, I was not exactly the worldliest person ever, and can pretty safely say I = would have just placed myself in the normal course without talking to = anyone—especially if I had to initiate the talk. But, I’d likely have been = pretty motivated to avoid getting any call that the English placement folks initiated, = too. So, even though I’d balk, I’d end up having to do the best I = possibly could on the self test, and would have fully identified it as an = “other” test of the standard-issue variety. We didn’t have these = online tools then, but I’m sure I would have been smart enough to figure = out that the self test would enter the system and get at least the once over = by someone looking to find the really poor ones. That’s a call = that would likely have seemed potentially humiliating. So, I suppose = the bottom line is that I wouldn’t have believed in the = “self” portion of this at all The test would trump the literacy = survey. Add to that all of our teachers’ warnings about how GPAs tend to drop = a whole point in the shift from college to h.s. (I believed them!), and = I’d never have had the temerity to self-place in the more intensive course (even = though the ink was barely dry on my h.s. English award, which would have seemed = a little piddling nothing in the face of a placement test that wants to = know how I handle writing struggles, and then asks me to demonstrate = that).

Teacher side. Yeah, we often = don’t have much to go on, and that’s frustrating, but I’ve = generally been in a setting where there’s some wiggle room, so that students can = be directed to courses that are a better fit if you discover, early on, = that they’re either struggling or ready for something more. On the other hand, sometimes even then, students choose to stay put. First year of = college is such an overwhelming time, isn’t it? I think it’s = easy to forget that. So, I suggested and encouraged, but never = pressed. The students who were so intimidated by college that they chose to stay in developmental courses despite clearly having the skill to place higher = were welcome to stay and build their confidence, and the ones who might have = been better placed in the developmental or ESL course but were determined to = give the standard issue 101 a whirl were welcome, too. Some students = were yearning for the honors course and thrilled when I suggested that; = others figured it sounded like way too much work to be an “honors” anything, though the lure of the tuition break could sometimes sway = them. The smaller cohort of honors students (almost a cluster—a little = society within the larger one) was about equally attractive and repellent, I = think.

As both student and teacher, = I’ve seen that for quite a few students, one of the main benefits of FYC is = that the class size tends to be relatively small. Here’s a place = where the teacher knows your name, knows you by sight, and could often identify = your writing even if it didn’t have your name on it. This is a = class in which students are likely to make a friend or two. They tend to = remember their teachers, too, long after the experience is over. I can = still name my FYC teachers. At the time, I didn’t even know they were = grad students. Couldn’t tell you who taught the mass classes, though. We often discuss and debate the place of FYC as a core course. It’s easy to forget that it’s often a social = anchor in this new academic world, as well (the social part of the academic = life, I mean, which is key thing)—one of the first places to become a = college student in a smaller setting with a teacher who treats you like the real college student you maybe aren’t quite, yet. I expect the = situation I described earlier—a broad range of ability levels in one = course—is pretty common. Because of the relatively small setting, that can be less problematic than it sometimes is in a larger course. (Back to = 17/18 year old self. I attended the math course my test scores placed me into precisely once. I could see right away that in that large course I = was not only lost, but likely to remain so, and immediately opted for the = more basic version. Still big, but survivable.) The thorniest issue in placement for us—and we worked hard on making this = better—was really that not all sections of any given course in the sequence were created equal. They could, in fact, be wildly dissimilar. A good = placement could be undone by that, and a “bad” one could be = alleviated. So, a big issue in placement for teacher me remains the focus on what, = exactly, we’re placing students into: are we clear on what English I = will, essentially, be, no matter the section? And are we ensuring that = our materials—including course schedule books—actually make it = as easy as possible for students to see what they’re getting into? = Even something as simple as a highly tech enhanced vs. a more traditional = approach can make a huge difference. Making the range of possibilities = clear is definitely a key aspect of making any self-placement effort a = success.

Thank you very much for providing = the opportunity to explore this, Ed. Very engaging and thought = provoking, all around. Maybe all teachers should have a go at approaching their = schools’ Online DSP instruments in student mode.

Kathy

From: = teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of Edmund Jones
Sent: Wednesday, October = 17, 2007 8:58 PM
To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
Subject: = [Teaching_Composition] Kathy's tour of an online DSP site

Dear Kathy,

I enjoyed reading your travel journal as you took an off-season tour of = the virtual DSP site at Seton Hall. (The glitch you encountered has = been fixed, by the way.)

It was fascinated to hear your reactions, and surprising. I haven't encountered any response like yours, though that doesn't mean there = weren't any. I figured that if you (the high school senior) understood the placement survey as a SELF-placement instrument you would not have been = thrown by the "test." After all, you still got to be in charge, instead of being told where you belonged. However, I then realized = you felt intimidated by having to make such a big decision--who am I to make = such a decision! However, shouldn't we, as faculty, feel similarly = intimidated about placing someone we don't know except through a single test? = Yes, you're making a decision based upon knowing relatively little about the = school you will be attending in the fall (continuing with the fiction here), = but in the traditional placement system the faculty have to make a decision = knowing relatively little about YOU. I actually find that, in general, = students are quite confident about placing themselves in College English I = instead of the intensive version of the course. Also, students overwhelmingly reported being glad that they got to make the choice. = Nevertheless, I found your reading persuasive, and it makes me want at least to change = some of the language on our site. Tell me, did offers at our DSP site of = people to talk to for advice not seem very enticing? I can imagine you'd = be thinking--what would I want to talk to a stranger for? However, I = found that students whom we contacted because we had doubts about their self-placement often seemed grateful to be able to talk things through, = or, if not grateful, at least engaged in their attempt to figure out what made = sense to them.

Ed

"Kathy Fitch" <kfitch@kafkaz.net>
Sent by: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com =

10/16/2007 12:09 PM

Please respond to
teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com

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Subject	RE: [Teaching_Composition] Online = DSP

I think I would have been hugely = intimidated by the online DSP tools as an entering freshman. Partly, that’s because of my sense that some of the more interactive tools (not just = online descriptions and FAQs, but the tools that require some survey taking and writing), seem to pull me in two directions, even lo these many years = later, when presumably I’d do fine in any of the courses. On the = one hand, the survey questions seem to urge me to base my choice on what I know = about myself as a writer, reader, and generally literate person already. = So, that part seems confidence inspiring: I earned As in high school = writing (the questions about knowing what to do when I’m struggling in = writing, and identifying my typical grade range threw me a bit—I = didn’t struggle, and didn’t earn B+ grades, though these are tied to the = A range, and no escaping it), sailed through the language portions of = college placement tests, love to read and write, etc. Yeah, me. But = then (and I wasn’t able to access this portion of the Seton version, so I’m just going by the feel of the disjuncture), here’s this reading/writing quiz in the middle of it. And even though = I’m too old, too far past being a student, and presumably too mature to react = this way, my h.s. self came roaring to the surface, and cried, “Boo! A test!” Love to write, love to read, did fine with all of = that throughout high school and beyond the confines of school, but I never = purposely gave myself a high stakes test before! And, you know, it feels = high stakes. I have to give it to myself, grade myself, and then place = myself accordingly. And while I’m a fine enough writer and reader, = college is a bit scary. The whole of it is utterly mysterious, and here = I’m supposed to make a major decision before I even get there, based on a = test I give myself, and then evaluate my performance on. I’ll be = the first in my family to earn a college degree. There’s nobody I know = to get any thoughts on this test from. My inner Bartleby prefers not = to!

I’m curious about what students say. Do = any them—even or especially fairly good writers—react that way, too? Sail through the literacy survey, then balk at the = test?

Kathy