[Teaching_Composition] responses to steve
Kristie Fleckenstein
teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:47:29 -0500
>The Classical rhetoric we lean on here was tons about embodiment, no?
I mean a lot of it was thought out/articulated in relationship to
speaking in person--directily embodied.
I think so, too. I remember reading a couple of references in James Davidson's _Courtesans and Fishcakes_ about the rhetorical strategy of "dropping one's cloak": where the rhetor stripped to the buff as part of his speech (and Davidson includes comments of participants that suggested the ploy was not successful!). Hawhee's article in CE on classical rhetorical and athleticism tends to confirm a similar intertwining of bodies and rhetoric.
Same goes for Aristotle, too. I remember reading an article by Amelie Rorty where she talks about Aristotle's "biopsychology." She says that we shouldn't read him, including the _Rhetoric_, outside the parameters of that biopsychology. So the rhetorical proofs--logos as well as pathos and ethos--are psychological and biological simultaneously.
> Finally, texts have bodies, no? I'm thinking about Lupton and
> Miller's essay "Body of the Book."
I love this idea, too. But I have a test case. What do we do about ghostwriters? (When I first thought of this, I was thinking of Deborah Brandt's fairly recent CE article on ghostwriters, but we could also go back to classical logographers--the first ghostwriters!--and reexamine that phenomenon within the context of biopsychology.) Whose body?
Last point. If writing is an extension of the body, what is reading?
Kris
----- Original Message -----
From: Patricia Freitag Ericsson <ericsson@wsu.edu>
Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:04 am
Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve
To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
> Perhaps random, but some thoughts and the final one might be the
> most interesting/important.
>
> The Classical rhetoric we lean on here was tons about embodiment,
> no?
> I mean a lot of it was thought out/articulated in relationship to
> speaking in person--directily embodied.
>
> There are bodies behind texts, yet, but how about bodies as texts?
> That seems to be part of what we're talking about. We read the
> body
> behind the texts as texts. I showed a short cartoon as a part of
> class a few years ago, and after it a student said "I can't believe
> a
> person who looks like you would show a cartoon like that." The
> student thought s/he knew me by the way I had appeared in class
> that
> semester.
>
> All of my teachers in grade school were nuns--ones who wore the old
> traditional habits. Talk about issues with embodiment!! When a
> tiny
> whisp of hair appeared from under the headress thing, we were all
> abuzz. After school, they disappeared into the convent--a
> mysterious
> place. Imagining them as having real bodies was almost impossible.
>
> Finally, texts have bodies, no? I'm thinking about Lupton and
> Miller's essay "Body of the Book." "All objects manufactured for
> use
> are extensions of the body: food, furniture, shelter, and tools do
> not lie in a region safely 'outside' the body, but instead are
> continuations of the body, turning it inside out." They ask, "But
> what if one were to see writing as an extension of the body, no
> different in essence from an artificial limb or a contact lense?
> Like
> a chair supporting the human skeleton, writing supplments the
> body's
> capacity to speak: it is permanent rather than ephemeral, it
> withstands movements in place and time, and it remains readable in
> the absence of it's author."
>
> Later Lupton/Miller add the part that has pretty much shocked my
> students and made them pay attention: "As the end-product of the
> so-called 'thought process,' writging thus resembles excrement. It
> is also akin to hair, finger nails, and the surface of the skin--
> each
> is a part of the body that is continually regenerated yet
> biologically dead, detachable, disposable. Writing is like blook,
> sweat, semen, saliva, and otehr substances that the body
> periodically
> produces and eliminates."
>
> Patty
>
>
>
> >This reminds me of something else we often have to work really
> hard on
> >with students -- though maybe it just spins it back ground to your
> >original points, Kris -- helping students see the bodies behind
> texts.>Texts are people talking, ultimately, and it changes the way
> students>imagine the text to imagine ("flesh out"?) the people
> behind them. In
> >my Comp II classes, I have students read Carol Berkenkotter's long-
> ago>C's article following Donald Murray through his invention
> process. The
> >piece ends with a reflection by Murray himself (an early example
> of a
> >research design allowing the "subject" to speak back to the
> researcher's>story) -- and it really bends students' perspectives.
> They also read
> >Murray's piece "All Writing is Autobiography," and have the double
> >experience both of Murray talking about himself and (now) reading a
> >eulogy written by one of his longtime proteges at the Boston Globe.
> >>From experiences like that -- getting students to pay attention
> to *how*
> >they "embody" -- or don't -- the writers of their texts, we work
> out to
> >other texts where it's harder to imagine the writer in the flesh.
> (It>helps to have had lunch with the writers, so you can tell
> students what
> >they eat.)
> >
> >So I love the thinking you're doing here about audience inventing
> rhetor>(rhetor-audience-invoked?) . . . and who has to have what
> bodies to do
> >which things . . . and how at one level, the entire point of
> writing has
> >always been to *disembody* the writer, so their words can be where
> they>are not -- and yet good blogging software allows photo uploads
> (not to
> >mention Facebook/etc.) and there is Haas and Takayoshi's developing
> >research on how emoticons in chat are used as much to re-embody the
> >writer (return them lost facial gesture) as to clarify meaning. .
> . .
> >For a guy who's too much in his head, this is kinda mindbending .
> . .
> >
> >Cheers --
> >Doug
> >
> >
> >Dr. Doug Downs
> >Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric
> >Writing Program Coordinator
> >Dept. of English and Literature
> >Utah Valley State College
> >800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058
> >LA 126g
> >801-863-8572
> >>>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" <kfleckenstein@fsu.edu> 11/28/07 4:45
> AM >>>
> >So persuasion is a kind of wish fulfillment? Instead of the rhetor
> >inventing the audience, the audience invents the rhetor (and in the
> >process become what they imagine?). Hoot! Now that has some
> >interesting possibilities as a thought experiment, esp. when we
> switch>it to the class and consider the teacher as rhetor and the
> students as
> >audience.
> >
> >What's the wish students want fulfilled and how do they "invent" the
> >teacher? I suspect that answers to those questions will shift as
> >students move through the public school system. I also suspect
> that the
> >"embodied" teaching experiences of teachers in the K-3 classrooms are
> >different from those in the 4-6 classrooms (and different yet
> again from
> >the 7-8, 9-12 classrooms). Maybe because the "wishes" are different?
> >
> >And what happens when that wish fulfillment is stymied by the
> teacher's>body? For instance, I just had a grad student in my
> office yesterday
> >chatting about a variety of things. And out of the blue (or what
> seemed>to me the blue), she asked me if my height ever caused me
> problems in
> >the classroom (I'm 5' 2"). She said she thought her students saw
> her as
> >short (she's 5') and thus without authority.
> >
> >Does that mean, then, that students who wish an "authority" teacher
> >might be unable to fulfill that wish with a teacher who does not
> >physically meet their vision of authority? Saying something like,
> "Oh,>that teacher doesn't have an "authority" body?" Or might they
> learn to
> >fulfill that wish according to other criteria?
> >
> >Susan's ethos question and your response, Doug, were also in the
> back of
> >my head as I read through NCTE's Inbox this morning, esp. the
> section on
> >the NCTE blogs...the ones where participants posted responses to
> NCTE in
> >NYC? Traci Gardner's response blog addressed the question of
> teachers>blogging: should teachers be blogging and/or participating
> on social
> >networking sites? I guess some school systems are urging teachers to
> >avoid both.
> >
> >Doesn't it seem as if part of the concern stems from issues of
> >embodiment--life outside of school, life as something other than a
> >talking head? (I remember when I was in grade school--I saw my
> second>grade teacher in the grocery store, and I was shocked.
> What? Teachers
> >buy food?)
> >
> >Fascinating and important, all of this.
> >
> >Kris
> >
> >
> >
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Doug Downs <DOWNSDO@uvsc.edu>
> >Date: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:57 am
> >Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve
> >To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
> >
> >> Well put, Kris. It only took the Roman Catholic Church 'til this
> >> century to apologize for believing Aristotle over Galileo on
> >> astronomy.
> >> I don't hear enough rhetoricians admit that he was simply, flatly
> >> wrongabout ethos. Or, perhaps, that he was speaking of how he
> >> *wished* it
> >> were rather than how it *is*. In the flesh and blood world,
> >> everythingwe know about the rhetor -- not simply the rhetor as
> they>> appear in
> >> their text or, more broadly, in the delivery of their text,
> >> matters.
> >>
> >> Of course, it's easier to see that, maybe, in a visual and
> electronic>> world than it was in a world where almost all
> rhetoric took place
> >> in-person and from memory.
> >>
> >> Usually we can think about ethos as a matter of identification
> with>> image -- if I the rhetor resemble (particularly in values
> and ways of
> >> being) you the audience, I likely have high ethos. What's
> interesting>> about "right" bodies and ethos is that rather than
> identification with
> >> how the audience *is*, ethos may derive from identification
> with what
> >> the audience *wants*. . . . But then, of course, ethos is always
> >> derived from being what the audience wishes it were rather than
> >> what it
> > > necessarily is.
> >>
> >> Cheers --
> >> Doug
> >>
> >>
> >> Dr. Doug Downs
> >> Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric
> >> Writing Program Chair
> >> Dept. of English and Literature
> >> Utah Valley State College
> >> 800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058
> >> LA 126g
> >> 801-863-8572
> >>
> >>
> >> >>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" <kfleckenstein@fsu.edu> 11/27/2007
> 2:42 AM
> >> >>>
> >> You know, tho', Susan, even Aristotelian ethos had a material
> aspect,>> one related to the body through eunoia, or friendliness.
> >> Regardless of
> >> A's saying that good character is created only through the
> words of a
> > > speech, he also points to the importance of creating a physical
> >> appearance that establishes friendliness. Even delivery has a
> role to
> >> play in ethos.
> >>
> >> So I don't think you're off the mark to consider bodies as part
> of our
> >> rhetorical toolbox.
> >>
> >> Maybe the problem is that bodies matter, but that bodies matter in
> >> potentially negative and pejorative ways; i.e., because you do not
> >> possess the "right" body, you can't make that argument (or you
> can't>> make that argument persuasively).
> >>
> >> Perhaps this cultural reality constitutes another important
> area of
> >> critical engagement for our students and for us as teachers?
> >>
> >> Kris
> >>
> >>
> >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Susan Miller-Cochran <susan_miller@ncsu.edu>
> >> Date: Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:41 pm
> >> Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve
> >> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
> >>
> >> > Kristie,
> >> >
> >> > Thank you for such a marvelous, thought-provoking module. In the
> >> > spirit of
> >> > sharing anecdotal evidence of (dis)embodied writing, I started
> >> > thinkingabout some of my own teaching practices...perhaps
> with a
> >> > bit of chagrin. I
> >> > thought about how our bodies, or how our bodies are perceived by
> >> > others, can
> >> > silence us and limit the ways in which we "can" use language.
> And>> I
> >> > thoughtof the discussions I have had with my students about
> >> > developing ethos in an
> >> > argument--how we can/'t make certain arguments because of who we
> >> > are or how
> >> > our bodies are represented....discussions that often end with
> >> > statementslike, "You might have trouble making that argument."
> >> What
> >> > I'm often saying
> >> > to students, without directly saying it, is "You might have
> >> trouble
> >> > makingthat argument because of how you are seen by others." I
> >> don't
> >> > want to say
> >> > that out loud, but that's often what I mean. And I'm embarrassed
> >> to
> >> > admitit.
> >> >
> >> > I'm not sure where my thoughts are going with this, but you've
> >> > given me
> >> > cause to rethink the ways that I approach these kinds of
> >> > discussions with my
> >> > students.
> >> >
> >> > Enough of my rambling for now. :)
> >> >
> >> > Susan
> >> >
> >> > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com
> >> > [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On
> Behalf Of
> >> > KristieFleckenstein
> >> > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:35 PM
> >> > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
> >> > Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve
> >> >
> >> > Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received your post. I
> found>> > it at the
> >> > end of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting.
> >> >
> >> > Here's what you wrote.
> >> >
> >> > Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General
> >> > Educationcommittee at my school proposed that courses satisfying
> >> > the college's
> >> > diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more
> >> about
> >> > howstudents negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital
> >> > environments. It
> >> > seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked.
> >> >
> >> > Here's my response.
> >> >
> >> > I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment question,
> >> and
> >> > one we
> >> > need to keep reminding ourselves to ask.
> >> >
> >> > It reminds me of Coco Fusco's work in _The Bodies that Were Not
> >> Ours_.
> >> > (Fusco's a performance artist at Columbia U, and I've just
> >> > discovered her
> >> > work.) She's concerned that digital technologies too easily
> lead to
> >> > disembodiment in a couple ways. First, we users tend to forget
> >> > that all
> >> > that hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low
> wage> > > assemble-line factory (she did 3 years of research in the
> >> factories
> >> > alongthe Mexican border). AND we tend to assume that bodies
> >> don't
> >> > matter on line
> >> > (back to the New Yorker cartoon-the one with the two dogs,
> one at
> >> a
> >> > computerterminal who tells the other one that no one knows
> you're>> a
> >> > dog online).
> >> > Fusco wants to keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do matter,
> >> > especiallyonline.
> >> >
> >> > It seems as if your school has gotten this message. So how
> do we
> > > > answerthat question?
> >> >
> >> > I know there are folks who are looking at the way in which we
> >> carry
> >> > realworld biases with us into virtual world spaces. But does
> >> > anyone on the list
> >> > know of research that looks at the way our minority students
> >> configure
> >> > themselves in online environments? And, if not, how do we go
> >> about
> >> > gettinganswers to these questions?
> >> >
> >> > Ideas?
> >> >
> >> > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor
> >> > Department of English
> >> > Florida State University
> >> > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way
> >> > P. O. Box 3061580
> >> > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580
> >> > 850.644.3530 (O)
> >> > 850.644.0811 (F)
> >> > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Teaching_Composition maillist -
> >> >
> >>
> >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition
> >>
> >> >
> >> > To unsubscribe, please visit
> >> > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition
> and>> > updateyour information.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > _______________________________________________
> >> > Teaching_Composition maillist -
> >> >
> >>
> >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition
> >>
> >> >
> >> > To unsubscribe, please visit
> >> > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition
> and>> > update your information.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor
> >> Department of English
> >> Florida State University
> >> 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way
> >> P. O. Box 3061580
> >> Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580
> >> 850.644.3530 (O)
> >> 850.644.0811 (F)
> >> kfleckenstein@fsu.edu
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Teaching_Composition maillist -
> >> Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com
> >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, please visit
> >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and
> >> update your information.
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Teaching_Composition maillist -
> >>
> >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, please visit
> >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and
> >> update your information.
> >>
> >
> >Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor
> >Department of English
> >Florida State University
> >405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way
> >P. O. Box 3061580
> >Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580
> >850.644.3530 (O)
> >850.644.0811 (F)
> >kfleckenstein@fsu.edu
> >_______________________________________________
> >Teaching_Composition maillist -
> Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com>http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition
> >
> >To unsubscribe, please visit
> >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and
> update>your information.
> >
> >_______________________________________________
> >Teaching_Composition maillist -
> Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com>http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition
> >
> >To unsubscribe, please visit
> >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and
> >update your information.
>
>
> --
>
>
> Patricia Freitag Ericsson, PhD
> Director, Digital Technology and Culture Program
> Assistant Professor, Department of English
> Washington State University
> Pullman, WA 99164
> ericsson@wsu.edu
> _______________________________________________
> Teaching_Composition maillist -
> Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition
>
> To unsubscribe, please visit
> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and
> update your information.
>
Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor
Department of English
Florida State University
405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way
P. O. Box 3061580
Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580
850.644.3530 (O)
850.644.0811 (F)
kfleckenstein@fsu.edu