From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Fri Nov 2 15:13:09 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Heather Lettner-Rust) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 10:13:09 -0400 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] (no subject) Message-ID: <0D7E506CEB88534E8FB38550422D3E721922679F@terrier.longwood.edu> --_000_0D7E506CEB88534E8FB38550422D3E721922679Fterrierlongwood_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would argue that the course in some cases doesn't start until those quest= ions happen. My job as I have come to conceive of it is to get them to that moment, rath= er than get them to "my moment." So if we are planning research into public issues of interest to them (as w= e were doing today), I am crafting questions with them, rather than telling them the process, having them research on th= eir own. Friday we are in the library together. And these are juniors and seniors! But they are beginners when it comes to= researching issues in the public sphere. How do these moments happen in other subjects? --_000_0D7E506CEB88534E8FB38550422D3E721922679Fterrierlongwood_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I would argue that the course in some cases doesn’= t start until those questions happen. 

 

My job as I have come to conceive of it is to get them t= o that moment, rather than get them to “my moment.”   <= o:p>

So if we are planning research into public issues of int= erest to them (as we were doing today), I am crafting questions

with them, rather than telling them the process, having = them research on their own.  Friday we are in the library together.  <= o:p>

And these are juniors and seniors!  But they are be= ginners when it comes to researching issues in the public sphere.=

 

How do these moments happen in other subjects?

--_000_0D7E506CEB88534E8FB38550422D3E721922679Fterrierlongwood_-- From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Fri Nov 2 19:06:25 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Lettner-Rust, Heather) Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 14:06:25 -0400 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] RE: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #1290 - 1 msg In-Reply-To: <200711021601.lA2G106X002635@localhost.eppg.com> Message-ID: <0D7E506CEB88534E8FB38550422D3E7219226BB6@terrier.longwood.edu> Sorry, for that last posting. It seems we had a mis-fire in our email switchover and some old email was found and sent. Heather Lettner-Rust -----Original Message----- From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com Sent: Friday, November 02, 2007 11:01 AM To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #1290 - 1 msg Send Teaching_Composition mailing list submissions to teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com You can reach the person managing the list at teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Teaching_Composition digest..." Today's Topics: 1. (no subject) (Heather Lettner-Rust) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Heather Lettner-Rust To: "teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com" Date: Fri, 2 Nov 2007 10:13:09 -0400 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] (no subject) Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com --_000_0D7E506CEB88534E8FB38550422D3E721922679Fterrierlongwood_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I would argue that the course in some cases doesn't start until those quest= ions happen. My job as I have come to conceive of it is to get them to that moment, rath= er than get them to "my moment." So if we are planning research into public issues of interest to them (as w= e were doing today), I am crafting questions with them, rather than telling them the process, having them research on th= eir own. Friday we are in the library together. And these are juniors and seniors! But they are beginners when it comes to= researching issues in the public sphere. How do these moments happen in other subjects? --_000_0D7E506CEB88534E8FB38550422D3E721922679Fterrierlongwood_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I would argue that the course in some cases doesn’= t start until those questions happen. 

 

My job as I have come to conceive of it is to get them t= o that moment, rather than get them to “my moment.”   <= o:p>

So if we are planning research into public issues of int= erest to them (as we were doing today), I am crafting questions

with them, rather than telling them the process, having = them research on their own.  Friday we are in the library together.  <= o:p>

And these are juniors and seniors!  But they are be= ginners when it comes to researching issues in the public sphere.=

 

How do these moments happen in other subjects?

--_000_0D7E506CEB88534E8FB38550422D3E721922679Fterrierlongwood_-- --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition End of Teaching_Composition Digest From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Thu Nov 8 14:04:57 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 09:04:57 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Designing and implementing online DSP Message-ID: I just wanted to say again how helpful all the material you posted has been to us, Ed. We have met with our deans about it and our Composition Committee is endorsing moving from SAT-based placements to an online DSP through virtual orientation. It seems everyone is on board with the idea, so now we need to actually begin the work of designing and implementing something. Toward that end, any screen shots, survey questions for students, etc, would be quite useful. Also, we were particularly interested in what I think your program does (if memory serves)--assign a reading passage, have the students write in response, and then rate themselves on confidence, etc. Would you be willing to provide more detail about what that looks like and also how long your full online DSP takes for students to complete? Also, who gets paid in the summer to answer student questions? None of the relevant people here are on 12 month contracts. So an added cost of this placement method might be increasing someone's contract from 10 to 11 or 12 months. Thanks again for this very timely module. Elizabeth Elizabeth Wardle, PhD Assistant Professor Director of Writing Programs Internship Coordinator Department of English Humanities 277 University of Dayton Dayton, Ohio 937-229-3003 ewardle@udayton.edu From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Thu Nov 8 15:09:11 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Barber, Justin) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 10:09:11 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical Modes Message-ID: <99F8F372EC900F41BE32239100CFA890026282B2@ssct-email.starkstate.edu> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C82219.51765BD6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everyone, =20 I am new to the listserv, so I hope I am not posing a recently discussed issue. At our institution we are going through some incredible growth, which brings about some changes to curriculum. Our college still relies on rhetorical modes (cause & effect, description, compare & contrast, etc.) to teach our Freshman Composition course. As a two-year school, our students only are required to take one semester of English, and we have to cover narrative through research in this class. As we reevaluate our composition class, we are discussing the validity/effectiveness of teaching the modes. I'm wondering how many of your institutions teach the modes, and if you find the modes valuable or without much merit in Freshman Composition. Some of us see little value in teaching modes, while others feel they are necessary for students to know. Also, what are the objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete their English requirement (especially in two-year colleges)? =20 Thank you, Justin Barber Instructor, English Stark State College=20 330.494.6170 ext. 4078 jbarber@starkstate.edu ------_=_NextPart_001_01C82219.51765BD6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Hello everyone,

 

I am new to the listserv, so I hope I am not posing= a recently discussed issue.  At our institution we are going through= some incredible growth, which brings about some changes to curriculum. = Our college still relies on rhetorical modes (cause & effect, descriptio= n, compare & contrast, etc.) to teach our Freshman Composition course.&= nbsp; As a two-year school, our students only are required to take one semeste= r of English, and we have to cover narrative through research in this class.= As we reevaluate our composition class, we are discussing the validity/effecti= veness of teaching the modes.  I’m wondering how many of your instit= utions teach the modes, and if you find the modes valuable or without much meri= t in Freshman Composition.  Some of us see little value in teaching modes, while= others feel they are necessary for students to know.  Also, what are the objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete their Engl= ish requirement (especially in two-year colleges)?

 

Thank you,

Justin Barber
Instructor, English
Stark State College
330.494.6170 ext. 4078
jbarber@starkstate.edu

------_=_NextPart_001_01C82219.51765BD6-- From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Thu Nov 8 17:46:33 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Erin Mount) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 11:46:33 -0600 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical Modes Message-ID: <9773bff40711080946l190ca266gd55d6c2cff194f6f@mail.gmail.com> Justin, I am also relatively new to the listserv and was particularly interested in your question because I recently shifted from teaching an argument-based freshman composition to a program that focuses on the rhetorical modes you mentioned. I have struggled with whether or not these modes are useful, as it doesn't seem likely that students will encounter narrative or descriptive assignments outside of the English classes, but those modes are a good way of engaging the students in the writing process, since they tend to be more personal in nature and less "scary" to the students than crafting an argument. On the other hand, in my classes we are now in the process of shifting to argument, and I have found that my students in general seem much more interested in researching topics and developing arguments about them. I wish I could devote more time to rhetoric, but the breadth of the course just doesn't allow for more than a month's focus on argumentation. It seems that the skills acquired through research and rhetoric can be more effectively applied to other disciplines than those basic rhetorical modes, and yet students also could encounter assignments that depend upon them being able to practice cause and effect or comparison and contrast, so I'm torn on the issue. I find it enjoyable to teach all of the different types of writing, but I wonder what is most effective for the students in terms of transferring those skills to their majors. I'd love hearing what others think about this topic. -- Erin Mount Visiting Instructor of English Union University Jackson, TN 38305 erinhmount@gmail.com --- I am new to the listserv, so I hope I am not posing a recently discussed issue. At our institution we are going through some incredible growth, which brings about some changes to curriculum. Our college still relies on rhetorical modes (cause & effect, description, compare & contrast, etc.) to teach our Freshman Composition course. As a two-year school, our students only are required to take one semester of English, and we have to cover narrative through research in this class. As we reevaluate our composition class, we are discussing the validity/effectiveness of teaching the modes. I'm wondering how many of your institutions teach the modes, and if you find the modes valuable or without much merit in Freshman Composition. Some of us see little value in teaching modes, while others feel they are necessary for students to know. Also, what are the objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete their English requirement (especially in two-year colleges)? Thank you, Justin Barber Instructor, English Stark State College=20 330.494.6170 ext. 4078 jbarber@starkstate.edu From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Thu Nov 8 18:58:19 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Brothers, Deborah) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 12:58:19 -0600 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Modes or No Modes Message-ID: I would be happy to reply to the request below, but I'm not sure if I should reply to the entire list or just to Justin. Could someone comment? I, too, am new to this listserv. Best, Deborah Brothes --- Deborah Brothers, Ph.D. Professor of English Lincoln Land Community College deborah.brothers@llcc.edu http://www.llcc.edu/dbrothers ---I'm wondering how many of your institutions teach the modes, and if you find the modes valuable or without much merit in Freshman Composition. Some of us see little value in teaching modes, while others feel they are necessary for students to know. Also, what are the objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete their English requirement (especially in two-year colleges)-- Justin Barber Instructor, English Stark State College=20 330.494.6170 ext. 4078 jbarber@starkstate.edu From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Thu Nov 8 19:28:35 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (theteach) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 13:28:35 -0600 (Central Standard Time) Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Modes or No Modes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I would be happy to reply to the request below, but I'm not sure if I > should reply to the entire list or just to Justin. Could someone > comment? I, too, am new to this listserv. Reply to the entire list. This is a collaborative effort in learning about the teaching of composition. alex From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Thu Nov 8 20:55:13 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (theteach) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:55:13 -0600 (Central Standard Time) Subject: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical Modes In-Reply-To: <9773bff40711080946l190ca266gd55d6c2cff194f6f@mail.gmail.com> References: <9773bff40711080946l190ca266gd55d6c2cff194f6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: > --I'm wondering how many of your institutions teach the modes, and if > you find the modes valuable or without much merit in Freshman > Composition. Some of us see little value in teaching modes, while > others feel they are necessary for students to know. Also, what are the > objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete their > English requirement (especially in two-year colleges)-- We often think this. Consider that forms of narrative and description are used by social workers, people in the medical and legal professions. Learning how to write case history, for example, requires learning how to tell a story in as objective terms as possible. Part of the case history is narrative. Descriptive assignments benefit not only those entering the above mentioned professions, but those entering the fields such as advertising and business. For some it is easier to teach modes as single assignments and then teach students to weave them into a larger assignment, such as the research paper or case study. A narrative essay, a descriptive essay, a comparison/contrast essay, all must have a thesis, supporting evidence, and a conclusion. There often is the implied argument in each of these. Perhaps consider teaching as parts of the total document rather than as isolated assinments. I have found that for some students, developing a clear understanding of the different modes in isolated instances helps them to then weave them into a longer essay. It does not work for everyone. For other students I let them draft as they wish and then help them recognize where they may have used description, narrative, comparison/contrast and so on. Then we examine whether these choices are effective and help to support the intended message or thesis. On another discussion list, there was a lengthy discussion about this problem, but I am having a senior moment and cannot remember where. Surely someone on this list saw it on the other one. alex From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Thu Nov 8 21:19:16 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Claire Lamonica) Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 15:19:16 -0600 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical Modes In-Reply-To: References: <9773bff40711080946l190ca266gd55d6c2cff194f6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <47337D54.7030607@ilstu.edu> Welcome to the conversation! I'm glad you've felt "brave" (?) enough to ask some good questions! Alex has done a nice job of addressing the one about modes. (And he's presented a perspective with which many on this and other lists would concur. I'll answer your second question: Click on the link below to see the Outcomes for FY Composition collaboratively produced by the Council of Writing Program Administrators, and used (in one form or another) widely at 2- and 4-year schools across the country. It will reinforce what Alex has said and give you a good starting point for conversations about outcomes at your schools. http://wpacouncil.org/positions/outcomes.html To learn more about the Council of Writing Program Administrators ('cause why should you value what they have to say if you don't know who they are?), go to www.wpacouncil,.org. Yours in the teaching of writing, Claire Lamonica Illinois State University theteach wrote: >> --I'm wondering how many of your institutions teach the modes, and if >> you find the modes valuable or without much merit in Freshman >> Composition. Some of us see little value in teaching modes, while >> others feel they are necessary for students to know. Also, what are >> the objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete >> their English requirement (especially in two-year colleges)-- > > We often think this. Consider that forms of narrative and description > are used by social workers, people in the medical and legal > professions. Learning how to write case history, for example, requires > learning how to tell a story in as objective terms as possible. Part > of the case history is narrative. > > Descriptive assignments benefit not only those entering the above > mentioned professions, but those entering the fields such as > advertising and business. > > For some it is easier to teach modes as single assignments and then > teach students to weave them into a larger assignment, such as the > research paper or case study. A narrative essay, a descriptive essay, > a comparison/contrast essay, all must have a thesis, supporting > evidence, and a conclusion. There often is the implied argument in > each of these. Perhaps consider teaching as parts of the total > document rather than as isolated assinments. > > I have found that for some students, developing a clear understanding > of the different modes in isolated instances helps them to then weave > them into a longer essay. It does not work for everyone. For other > students I let them draft as they wish and then help them recognize > where they may have used description, narrative, comparison/contrast > and so on. Then we examine whether these choices are effective and > help to support the intended message or thesis. > > On another discussion list, there was a lengthy discussion about this > problem, but I am having a senior moment and cannot remember where. > Surely someone on this list saw it on the other one. > > alex > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > update your information. From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Thu Nov 8 21:22:16 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Chris Anson) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 16:22:16 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Modes or No Modes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0682BD7D-CF53-4098-91FC-59319D73DF23@ncsu.edu> --Apple-Mail-1--646111642 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Deborah--the list is open to any conversations in addition to the main thread prompted by the live module. So please do go ahead. We'll be transitioning to a new module shortly. Chris Anson Moderator On Nov 8, 2007, at 1:58 PM, Brothers, Deborah wrote: > I would be happy to reply to the request below, but I'm not sure if > I should reply to the entire list or just to Justin. Could someone > comment? I, too, am new to this listserv. > > Best, > > Deborah Brothes > > --- > Deborah Brothers, Ph.D. > Professor of English > Lincoln Land Community College > deborah.brothers@llcc.edu > http://www.llcc.edu/dbrothers > > ---I'm wondering how many of your institutions teach > the modes, and if you find the modes valuable or without much merit in > Freshman Composition. Some of us see little value in teaching modes, > while others feel they are necessary for students to know. Also, what > are the objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete > their English requirement (especially in two-year colleges)-- > > > Justin Barber > Instructor, English > Stark State College=20 > 330.494.6170 ext. 4078 > jbarber@starkstate.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/ > listinfo/teaching_composition and update your information. -- Chris M. Anson [Web site] University Distinguished Professor Director, Campus Writing & Speaking Program Box 8105, North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC 27695-8105 (919) 513-4080 --Apple-Mail-1--646111642 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Deborah--the list is open to any = conversations in addition to the main thread prompted by the live = module. So please do go ahead.

We'll be transitioning to a = new module shortly.

Chris = Anson
Moderator


On Nov 8, = 2007, at 1:58 PM, Brothers, Deborah wrote:

I would be happy to reply to the request below, but = I'm not sure if I should reply to the entire list or just to = Justin.=A0 Could someone = comment?=A0 I, too, am new = to this listserv.

Best,

Deborah Brothes

Deborah Brothers, = Ph.D.
Professor of English
Lincoln Land Community College
deborah.brothers@llcc.edu
http://www.llcc.edu/dbrothers

---I'm wondering how many of your institutions = teach
the modes, and if you find the = modes valuable or without much merit in
Freshman = Composition.=A0 Some of us = see little value in teaching modes,
while others = feel they are necessary for students to know.=A0 Also, what
are the objectives students must/should meet to = successfully complete
their English requirement = (especially in two-year colleges)--


Justin Barber
Instructor, = English
Stark State College=3D20
330.494.6170 ext. 4078


Teaching_Composition maillist=A0 -=A0 Teaching_Composition= @mailman.eppg.com

To = unsubscribe, please visit htt= p://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and = update your information.

--=A0
Chris = M. Anson=A0[Web = site]
University Distinguished = Professor
Director,=A0Campus Writing & = Speaking Program
Box 8105,=A0North Carolina State = University=A0
Raleigh, NC=A0 27695-8105=A0
(919) = 513-4080


=

= --Apple-Mail-1--646111642-- From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Fri Nov 9 01:01:36 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Pat McQueeney) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:01:36 -0600 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical Modes References: <9773bff40711080946l190ca266gd55d6c2cff194f6f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <316E6028A37ED542BAE77D74FD182ACDD88BD1@AC-EXCH03.employee.directory.jccc> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8226C.13B1C5B6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, all! It's nice to have some new voices on this list. I think the strong feelings about modes are similar to the reasoning = underlying strong opposition to five-paragraph essays. While there's = nothing wrong with either, when they are taught as ends in themselves = regardless of the rhetorical situation, they can limit student writing = choices. It's the old case of form trumping function. When students get into real writing situations, then, where modes are = used to create components of documents rather than being the documents = themselves, they have difficulty coping. I've had several students this = semester who have been modally brainwashed. They are convinced that all = writing has to fit into one of those forms. So, when they run into a = teacher like me who delights in designing assignments that run counter = to five-paragraphs and counter to modes, they really have problems. On = the other hand, students who have learned the craft of modes as a means = to an end can easily make them into composition tools for crafting the = documents that rhetorical situations call for. Dr. Mary Pat McQueeney=20 Johnson County Community College English=20 Overland Park, KS 66210 http://staff.jccc.net/pmcqueen=20 "Good writing is hard work!" ~~Snoopy =20 =20 The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto = ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and = is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or = entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and = state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader = of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that = retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is = strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please = immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently = delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. =20 =20 -----Original Message----- =20 From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com on behalf of theteach Sent: Thu 11/8/2007 2:55 PM To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical = Modes =20 > --I'm wondering how many of your institutions teach the modes, and if=20 > you find the modes valuable or without much merit in Freshman=20 > Composition. Some of us see little value in teaching modes, while=20 > others feel they are necessary for students to know. Also, what are = the=20 > objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete their=20 > English requirement (especially in two-year colleges)-- We often think this. Consider that forms of narrative and description = are=20 used by social workers, people in the medical and legal professions.=20 Learning how to write case history, for example, requires learning how = to=20 tell a story in as objective terms as possible. Part of the case = history=20 is narrative. Descriptive assignments benefit not only those entering the above=20 mentioned professions, but those entering the fields such as advertising = and business. For some it is easier to teach modes as single assignments and then = teach=20 students to weave them into a larger assignment, such as the research=20 paper or case study. A narrative essay, a descriptive essay, a=20 comparison/contrast essay, all must have a thesis, supporting evidence,=20 and a conclusion. There often is the implied argument in each of these. = Perhaps consider teaching as parts of the total document rather than as=20 isolated assinments. I have found that for some students, developing a clear understanding of = the different modes in isolated instances helps them to then weave them=20 into a longer essay. It does not work for everyone. For other students = I=20 let them draft as they wish and then help them recognize where they may=20 have used description, narrative, comparison/contrast and so on. Then = we=20 examine whether these choices are effective and help to support the=20 intended message or thesis. On another discussion list, there was a lengthy discussion about this=20 problem, but I am having a senior moment and cannot remember where.=20 Surely someone on this list saw it on the other one. alex _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition To unsubscribe, please visit = http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and update = your information. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8226C.13B1C5B6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical = Modes

Hello, all!
It's nice to have some new voices on this list.

I think the strong feelings about modes are similar to the reasoning = underlying strong opposition to five-paragraph essays.  While = there's nothing wrong with either, when they are taught as ends in = themselves regardless of the rhetorical situation, they can limit = student writing choices.  It's the old case of form trumping = function.

When students get into real writing situations, then, where modes are = used to create components of documents rather than being the documents = themselves, they have difficulty coping.  I've had several students = this semester who have been modally brainwashed.  They are = convinced that all writing has to fit into one of those forms.  So, = when they run into a teacher like me who delights in designing = assignments that run counter to five-paragraphs and counter to modes, = they really have problems.  On the other hand, students who have = learned the craft of modes as a means to an end can easily make them = into composition tools for crafting the documents that rhetorical = situations call for.

Dr. Mary Pat McQueeney
Johnson County Community College English
Overland Park, KS 66210
http://staff.jccc.net/pmcqueen

"Good writing is hard work!" ~~Snoopy



 
 
The information contained in this e-mail = and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County = Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for = the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information = may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or = other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended = recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution = or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received = this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and = immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any = attachments thereto. Thank you.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
 

From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com on behalf of = theteach
Sent: Thu 11/8/2007 2:55 PM
To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical = Modes

> --I'm wondering how many of your institutions teach the modes, and = if
> you find the modes valuable or without much merit in Freshman
> Composition.  Some of us see little value in teaching modes, = while
> others feel they are necessary for students to know.  Also, = what are the
> objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete = their
> English requirement (especially in two-year colleges)--

We often think this. Consider that forms of narrative and description = are
used by social workers, people in the medical and legal professions.
Learning how to write case history, for example, requires learning how = to
tell a story in as objective terms as possible.  Part of the case = history
is narrative.

Descriptive assignments benefit not only those entering the above
mentioned professions, but those entering the fields such as = advertising
and business.

For some it is easier to teach modes as single assignments and then = teach
students to weave them into a larger assignment, such as the = research
paper or case study.  A narrative essay, a descriptive essay, a
comparison/contrast essay, all must have a thesis, supporting = evidence,
and a conclusion.  There often is the implied argument in each of = these.
Perhaps consider teaching as parts of the total document rather than = as
isolated assinments.

I have found that for some students, developing a clear understanding = of
the different modes in isolated instances helps them to then weave = them
into a longer essay.  It does not work for everyone.  For = other students I
let them draft as they wish and then help them recognize where they = may
have used description, narrative, comparison/contrast and so on.  = Then we
examine whether these choices are effective and help to support the
intended message or thesis.

On another discussion list, there was a lengthy discussion about = this
problem, but I am having a senior moment and cannot remember where.
Surely someone on this list saw it on the other one.

alex

_______________________________________________
Teaching_Composition maillist  -  = Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com
ht= tp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition

To unsubscribe, please visit ht= tp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and = update your information.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C8226C.13B1C5B6-- From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Fri Nov 9 01:57:06 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Brown, Cheryl A. (English)) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 20:57:06 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] True story? or urban (composition) legend? References: <200711090103.lA9130Co020056@localhost.eppg.com> Message-ID: <0E6B08D27C038C478628560AFD73A81302C000AC@krypton.towson.edu> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C82273.F8A5247E Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable While taking graduate composition courses in the late 80s, one of my = professors told the following story which I have sometimes repeated. I = was thinking about using it in a presentation tomorrow and then it = occurred to me that I really need to track down the =93original = source=94 (if such there be). I=92m wondering if it is, in fact, a = "true" story. Here=92s how the story goes. One of the early and influential = composition theorists had written several textbooks and had been = considered an expert in teaching writing from a CTR perspective. His = early approach to teaching writing took students through a series of = traditional steps: doing research, keeping notes on index cards, writing = an outline, writing a draft, editing for errors and finally submitting = the finished product. The way I remember the story is that a graduate = student got permission to observe him as he wrote one of his textbooks. = And after observing him, she pointed out that his writing process did = not bear any resemblance to the process he advocated in his texts. = Supposedly, this became an epiphanic moment for him, and he completely = changed his approach to teaching writing. . . and writing about = teaching writing. As I=92m writing this, I=92m wondering if this is, in fact, a = =93composite=94 story that I subconsciously invented. Does this sound = familiar to anyone? Cheryl Brown First Year Writing Program Director Towson University ------_=_NextPart_001_01C82273.F8A5247E Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable True story? or urban (composition) legend?

While taking graduate composition courses in the late = 80s, one of my professors told the following story which I have = sometimes repeated. I was thinking about using it in a presentation = tomorrow and then it occurred to me that I really need to track down the = “original source” (if such there be). I’m wondering  = if it is, in fact, a "true" story.

Here’s how the story goes. One of the early and influential = composition theorists had written several textbooks and had been = considered an expert in teaching writing from a CTR perspective. His = early approach to teaching writing took students through a series of = traditional steps: doing research, keeping notes on index cards, writing = an outline, writing a draft, editing for errors and finally submitting = the finished product. The way I remember the story is that a graduate = student got permission to observe him as he wrote one of his textbooks. = And after observing him, she pointed out that his writing process did = not bear any resemblance to the process he advocated in his texts. = Supposedly, this became an epiphanic moment for him, and he completely = changed his approach to teaching  writing. . . and writing about = teaching writing.

As I’m writing this, I’m wondering if this is, in fact, a = “composite” story that I subconsciously invented. Does this = sound familiar to anyone?

Cheryl Brown
First Year Writing Program Director
Towson University

------_=_NextPart_001_01C82273.F8A5247E-- From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Fri Nov 9 01:58:37 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Brothers, Deborah) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:58:37 -0600 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Modes, etc. Message-ID: We do not teach modes as "types" of essays, but rather talk about them as strategies for organizing, analyzing, developing, etc. within the realm of argument. Deborah Brothers (who misspelled her name in the last message) Lincoln Land Community College ________________________________________ From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com [teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com [teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com] Sent: Thursday, November 08, 2007 7:03 PM To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #1293 - 7 msgs Send Teaching_Composition mailing list submissions to teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com You can reach the person managing the list at teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Teaching_Composition digest..." Today's Topics: 1. The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical Modes (Erin Mount) 2. Modes or No Modes (Brothers, Deborah) 3. Re: Modes or No Modes (theteach) 4. Re: The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical Modes (theteach) 5. Re: The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical Modes (Claire Lamonica) 6. Re: Modes or No Modes (Chris Anson) 7. RE: The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical Modes (Pat McQueeney) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 11:46:33 -0600 From: "Erin Mount" To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical Modes Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Justin, I am also relatively new to the listserv and was particularly interested in your question because I recently shifted from teaching an argument-based freshman composition to a program that focuses on the rhetorical modes you mentioned. I have struggled with whether or not these modes are useful, as it doesn't seem likely that students will encounter narrative or descriptive assignments outside of the English classes, but those modes are a good way of engaging the students in the writing process, since they tend to be more personal in nature and less "scary" to the students than crafting an argument. On the other hand, in my classes we are now in the process of shifting to argument, and I have found that my students in general seem much more interested in researching topics and developing arguments about them. I wish I could devote more time to rhetoric, but the breadth of the course just doesn't allow for more than a month's focus on argumentation. It seems that the skills acquired through research and rhetoric can be more effectively applied to other disciplines than those basic rhetorical modes, and yet students also could encounter assignments that depend upon them being able to practice cause and effect or comparison and contrast, so I'm torn on the issue. I find it enjoyable to teach all of the different types of writing, but I wonder what is most effective for the students in terms of transferring those skills to their majors. I'd love hearing what others think about this topic. -- Erin Mount Visiting Instructor of English Union University Jackson, TN 38305 erinhmount@gmail.com --- I am new to the listserv, so I hope I am not posing a recently discussed issue. At our institution we are going through some incredible growth, which brings about some changes to curriculum. Our college still relies on rhetorical modes (cause & effect, description, compare & contrast, etc.) to teach our Freshman Composition course. As a two-year school, our students only are required to take one semester of English, and we have to cover narrative through research in this class. As we reevaluate our composition class, we are discussing the validity/effectiveness of teaching the modes. I'm wondering how many of your institutions teach the modes, and if you find the modes valuable or without much merit in Freshman Composition. Some of us see little value in teaching modes, while others feel they are necessary for students to know. Also, what are the objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete their English requirement (especially in two-year colleges)? Thank you, Justin Barber Instructor, English Stark State College=20 330.494.6170 ext. 4078 jbarber@starkstate.edu --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Brothers, Deborah" To: "teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com" Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 12:58:19 -0600 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Modes or No Modes Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com I would be happy to reply to the request below, but I'm not sure if I should reply to the entire list or just to Justin. Could someone comment? I, too, am new to this listserv. Best, Deborah Brothes --- Deborah Brothers, Ph.D. Professor of English Lincoln Land Community College deborah.brothers@llcc.edu http://www.llcc.edu/dbrothers ---I'm wondering how many of your institutions teach the modes, and if you find the modes valuable or without much merit in Freshman Composition. Some of us see little value in teaching modes, while others feel they are necessary for students to know. Also, what are the objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete their English requirement (especially in two-year colleges)-- Justin Barber Instructor, English Stark State College=20 330.494.6170 ext. 4078 jbarber@starkstate.edu --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 13:28:35 -0600 (Central Standard Time) From: theteach Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Modes or No Modes To: "teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com" Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > I would be happy to reply to the request below, but I'm not sure if I > should reply to the entire list or just to Justin. Could someone > comment? I, too, am new to this listserv. Reply to the entire list. This is a collaborative effort in learning about the teaching of composition. alex --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 14:55:13 -0600 (Central Standard Time) From: theteach Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical Modes To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > --I'm wondering how many of your institutions teach the modes, and if > you find the modes valuable or without much merit in Freshman > Composition. Some of us see little value in teaching modes, while > others feel they are necessary for students to know. Also, what are the > objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete their > English requirement (especially in two-year colleges)-- We often think this. Consider that forms of narrative and description are used by social workers, people in the medical and legal professions. Learning how to write case history, for example, requires learning how to tell a story in as objective terms as possible. Part of the case history is narrative. Descriptive assignments benefit not only those entering the above mentioned professions, but those entering the fields such as advertising and business. For some it is easier to teach modes as single assignments and then teach students to weave them into a larger assignment, such as the research paper or case study. A narrative essay, a descriptive essay, a comparison/contrast essay, all must have a thesis, supporting evidence, and a conclusion. There often is the implied argument in each of these. Perhaps consider teaching as parts of the total document rather than as isolated assinments. I have found that for some students, developing a clear understanding of the different modes in isolated instances helps them to then weave them into a longer essay. It does not work for everyone. For other students I let them draft as they wish and then help them recognize where they may have used description, narrative, comparison/contrast and so on. Then we examine whether these choices are effective and help to support the intended message or thesis. On another discussion list, there was a lengthy discussion about this problem, but I am having a senior moment and cannot remember where. Surely someone on this list saw it on the other one. alex --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2007 15:19:16 -0600 From: Claire Lamonica To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical Modes Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Welcome to the conversation! I'm glad you've felt "brave" (?) enough to ask some good questions! Alex has done a nice job of addressing the one about modes. (And he's presented a perspective with which many on this and other lists would concur. I'll answer your second question: Click on the link below to see the Outcomes for FY Composition collaboratively produced by the Council of Writing Program Administrators, and used (in one form or another) widely at 2- and 4-year schools across the country. It will reinforce what Alex has said and give you a good starting point for conversations about outcomes at your schools. http://wpacouncil.org/positions/outcomes.html To learn more about the Council of Writing Program Administrators ('cause why should you value what they have to say if you don't know who they are?), go to www.wpacouncil,.org. Yours in the teaching of writing, Claire Lamonica Illinois State University theteach wrote: >> --I'm wondering how many of your institutions teach the modes, and if >> you find the modes valuable or without much merit in Freshman >> Composition. Some of us see little value in teaching modes, while >> others feel they are necessary for students to know. Also, what are >> the objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete >> their English requirement (especially in two-year colleges)-- > > We often think this. Consider that forms of narrative and description > are used by social workers, people in the medical and legal > professions. Learning how to write case history, for example, requires > learning how to tell a story in as objective terms as possible. Part > of the case history is narrative. > > Descriptive assignments benefit not only those entering the above > mentioned professions, but those entering the fields such as > advertising and business. > > For some it is easier to teach modes as single assignments and then > teach students to weave them into a larger assignment, such as the > research paper or case study. A narrative essay, a descriptive essay, > a comparison/contrast essay, all must have a thesis, supporting > evidence, and a conclusion. There often is the implied argument in > each of these. Perhaps consider teaching as parts of the total > document rather than as isolated assinments. > > I have found that for some students, developing a clear understanding > of the different modes in isolated instances helps them to then weave > them into a longer essay. It does not work for everyone. For other > students I let them draft as they wish and then help them recognize > where they may have used description, narrative, comparison/contrast > and so on. Then we examine whether these choices are effective and > help to support the intended message or thesis. > > On another discussion list, there was a lengthy discussion about this > problem, but I am having a senior moment and cannot remember where. > Surely someone on this list saw it on the other one. > > alex > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > update your information. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Chris Anson Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Modes or No Modes Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 16:22:16 -0500 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com --Apple-Mail-1--646111642 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed Deborah--the list is open to any conversations in addition to the main thread prompted by the live module. So please do go ahead. We'll be transitioning to a new module shortly. Chris Anson Moderator On Nov 8, 2007, at 1:58 PM, Brothers, Deborah wrote: > I would be happy to reply to the request below, but I'm not sure if > I should reply to the entire list or just to Justin. Could someone > comment? I, too, am new to this listserv. > > Best, > > Deborah Brothes > > --- > Deborah Brothers, Ph.D. > Professor of English > Lincoln Land Community College > deborah.brothers@llcc.edu > http://www.llcc.edu/dbrothers > > ---I'm wondering how many of your institutions teach > the modes, and if you find the modes valuable or without much merit in > Freshman Composition. Some of us see little value in teaching modes, > while others feel they are necessary for students to know. Also, what > are the objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete > their English requirement (especially in two-year colleges)-- > > > Justin Barber > Instructor, English > Stark State College=20 > 330.494.6170 ext. 4078 > jbarber@starkstate.edu > > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/ > listinfo/teaching_composition and update your information. -- Chris M. Anson [Web site] University Distinguished Professor Director, Campus Writing & Speaking Program Box 8105, North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC 27695-8105 (919) 513-4080 --Apple-Mail-1--646111642 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Deborah--the list is open to any = conversations in addition to the main thread prompted by the live = module. So please do go ahead.

We'll be transitioning to a = new module shortly.

Chris = Anson
Moderator


On Nov 8, = 2007, at 1:58 PM, Brothers, Deborah wrote:

I would be happy to reply to the request below, but = I'm not sure if I should reply to the entire list or just to = Justin.=A0 Could someone = comment?=A0 I, too, am new = to this listserv.

Best,

Deborah Brothes

Deborah Brothers, = Ph.D.
Professor of English
Lincoln Land Community College
deborah.brothers@llcc.edu
http://www.llcc.edu/dbrothers

---I'm wondering how many of your institutions = teach
the modes, and if you find the = modes valuable or without much merit in
Freshman = Composition.=A0 Some of us = see little value in teaching modes,
while others = feel they are necessary for students to know.=A0 Also, what
are the objectives students must/should meet to = successfully complete
their English requirement = (especially in two-year colleges)--


Justin Barber
Instructor, = English
Stark State College=3D20
330.494.6170 ext. 4078


Teaching_Composition maillist=A0 -=A0 Teaching_Composition= @mailman.eppg.com

To = unsubscribe, please visit htt= p://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and = update your information.

--=A0
Chris = M. Anson=A0[Web = site]
University Distinguished = Professor
Director,=A0Campus Writing & = Speaking Program
Box 8105,=A0North Carolina State = University=A0
Raleigh, NC=A0 27695-8105=A0
(919) = 513-4080


=

= --Apple-Mail-1--646111642-- --__--__-- Message: 7 Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical Modes Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 19:01:36 -0600 From: "Pat McQueeney" To: , Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8226C.13B1C5B6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, all! It's nice to have some new voices on this list. I think the strong feelings about modes are similar to the reasoning = underlying strong opposition to five-paragraph essays. While there's = nothing wrong with either, when they are taught as ends in themselves = regardless of the rhetorical situation, they can limit student writing = choices. It's the old case of form trumping function. When students get into real writing situations, then, where modes are = used to create components of documents rather than being the documents = themselves, they have difficulty coping. I've had several students this = semester who have been modally brainwashed. They are convinced that all = writing has to fit into one of those forms. So, when they run into a = teacher like me who delights in designing assignments that run counter = to five-paragraphs and counter to modes, they really have problems. On = the other hand, students who have learned the craft of modes as a means = to an end can easily make them into composition tools for crafting the = documents that rhetorical situations call for. Dr. Mary Pat McQueeney=20 Johnson County Community College English=20 Overland Park, KS 66210 http://staff.jccc.net/pmcqueen=20 "Good writing is hard work!" ~~Snoopy =20 =20 The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto = ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and = is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or = entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and = state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader = of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that = retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is = strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please = immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently = delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. =20 =20 -----Original Message----- =20 From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com on behalf of theteach Sent: Thu 11/8/2007 2:55 PM To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical = Modes =20 > --I'm wondering how many of your institutions teach the modes, and if=20 > you find the modes valuable or without much merit in Freshman=20 > Composition. Some of us see little value in teaching modes, while=20 > others feel they are necessary for students to know. Also, what are = the=20 > objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete their=20 > English requirement (especially in two-year colleges)-- We often think this. Consider that forms of narrative and description = are=20 used by social workers, people in the medical and legal professions.=20 Learning how to write case history, for example, requires learning how = to=20 tell a story in as objective terms as possible. Part of the case = history=20 is narrative. Descriptive assignments benefit not only those entering the above=20 mentioned professions, but those entering the fields such as advertising = and business. For some it is easier to teach modes as single assignments and then = teach=20 students to weave them into a larger assignment, such as the research=20 paper or case study. A narrative essay, a descriptive essay, a=20 comparison/contrast essay, all must have a thesis, supporting evidence,=20 and a conclusion. There often is the implied argument in each of these. = Perhaps consider teaching as parts of the total document rather than as=20 isolated assinments. I have found that for some students, developing a clear understanding of = the different modes in isolated instances helps them to then weave them=20 into a longer essay. It does not work for everyone. For other students = I=20 let them draft as they wish and then help them recognize where they may=20 have used description, narrative, comparison/contrast and so on. Then = we=20 examine whether these choices are effective and help to support the=20 intended message or thesis. On another discussion list, there was a lengthy discussion about this=20 problem, but I am having a senior moment and cannot remember where.=20 Surely someone on this list saw it on the other one. alex _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition To unsubscribe, please visit = http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and update = your information. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8226C.13B1C5B6 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable RE: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical = Modes

Hello, all!
It's nice to have some new voices on this list.

I think the strong feelings about modes are similar to the reasoning = underlying strong opposition to five-paragraph essays.  While = there's nothing wrong with either, when they are taught as ends in = themselves regardless of the rhetorical situation, they can limit = student writing choices.  It's the old case of form trumping = function.

When students get into real writing situations, then, where modes are = used to create components of documents rather than being the documents = themselves, they have difficulty coping.  I've had several students = this semester who have been modally brainwashed.  They are = convinced that all writing has to fit into one of those forms.  So, = when they run into a teacher like me who delights in designing = assignments that run counter to five-paragraphs and counter to modes, = they really have problems.  On the other hand, students who have = learned the craft of modes as a means to an end can easily make them = into composition tools for crafting the documents that rhetorical = situations call for.

Dr. Mary Pat McQueeney
Johnson County Community College English
Overland Park, KS 66210
http://staff.jccc.net/pmcqueen

"Good writing is hard work!" ~~Snoopy



 
 
The information contained in this e-mail = and any attachments thereto ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County = Community College ("JCCC") and is intended to be confidential and for = the use of only the individual or entity named above. The information = may be protected by federal and state privacy and disclosures acts or = other legal rules. If the reader of this message is not the intended = recipient, you are notified that retention, dissemination, distribution = or copying of this e-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received = this e-mail in error please immediately notify JCCC by email reply and = immediately and permanently delete this e-mail message and any = attachments thereto. Thank you.
 
 
-----Original Message-----
 

From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com on behalf of = theteach
Sent: Thu 11/8/2007 2:55 PM
To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical = Modes

> --I'm wondering how many of your institutions teach the modes, and = if
> you find the modes valuable or without much merit in Freshman
> Composition.  Some of us see little value in teaching modes, = while
> others feel they are necessary for students to know.  Also, = what are the
> objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete = their
> English requirement (especially in two-year colleges)--

We often think this. Consider that forms of narrative and description = are
used by social workers, people in the medical and legal professions.
Learning how to write case history, for example, requires learning how = to
tell a story in as objective terms as possible.  Part of the case = history
is narrative.

Descriptive assignments benefit not only those entering the above
mentioned professions, but those entering the fields such as = advertising
and business.

For some it is easier to teach modes as single assignments and then = teach
students to weave them into a larger assignment, such as the = research
paper or case study.  A narrative essay, a descriptive essay, a
comparison/contrast essay, all must have a thesis, supporting = evidence,
and a conclusion.  There often is the implied argument in each of = these.
Perhaps consider teaching as parts of the total document rather than = as
isolated assinments.

I have found that for some students, developing a clear understanding = of
the different modes in isolated instances helps them to then weave = them
into a longer essay.  It does not work for everyone.  For = other students I
let them draft as they wish and then help them recognize where they = may
have used description, narrative, comparison/contrast and so on.  = Then we
examine whether these choices are effective and help to support the
intended message or thesis.

On another discussion list, there was a lengthy discussion about = this
problem, but I am having a senior moment and cannot remember where.
Surely someone on this list saw it on the other one.

alex

_______________________________________________
Teaching_Composition maillist  -  = Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com
ht= tp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition

To unsubscribe, please visit ht= tp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and = update your information.

------_=_NextPart_001_01C8226C.13B1C5B6-- --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition End of Teaching_Composition Digest From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Fri Nov 9 05:16:51 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Matthew Schmeer) Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2007 23:16:51 -0600 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Teaching Modes References: <200711081701.lA8H11ln005873@localhost.eppg.com> Message-ID: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8228F.BC234FCE Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is value to the modes approach, but I find it easier to = incorporate modes into a larger discussion. While traditionally comp = classes and comp textbooks have viewed modes as a primary form of = writing, in the wild, they rarely are. When was the last time you read = an essay in Vanity Fair, Harper's, Rolling Stone, or The Believer and = saw that it only used one mode? Modes are just that--modal. They are = good for sentences, paragraphs, and short passages, but to classify = entire essays under a modal rubric is to deny the richness of content = that such essays contain. True, a recipe is nothing but process = analysis, but an essay that not only presents the recipe instructions = but discusses variations on ingredients and the successes thereof is no = longer straight process analysis--it has broken out of mode and become = something much more interesting, more intriguing, more alive. Comp teachers and seasoned writers know that successful writing address = an exigence using more than one mode when crafting a response. In = writing a profile essay, for example, writers might have to juggle = description, narration, comparison/contrast, and perhaps cause/effect to = explain just why the essay subject is worthy of our attention. The = modes can not and should not be an ends in themselves, but strategies = that a writer can apply to a given situation in order to craft = interesting and engaging prose to accomplish something beyond the bounds = of a writing assignment. When I first started teaching, I taught modes, because that's what I was = expected to teach. But I dropped that approach as fast as I could once = I got out of grad school. And while my college still embraces modes on = official, state-approved course outlines and objectives, I subvert them = as much as possible by combining modes in my assignments, so students = are forced to think beyond the five paragraph modal essay they have been = coached to create through 12+ of elementary and secondary education. And = let's not forget the non-traditional students and English Language = Learners who find themselves in our writing classes at two year = community colleges. They address exigences in their lives using more = than one mode on a regular basis. Why not allow them to tap into the = rich tapestry of their lived experience to address the assignments posed = in a writing course? My students are often lost for the first assignment or two--until they = realize that real writing is writing that matters, and that I expect = them to realize that writing is not about compartmentalization, but = exploration. As I tell my students, mode and genre are things for = critics to worry about, not writers and readers. The writer's job is to = get it right on the page, and the reader's job is to let the writer know = whether or not it is. Ultimately, however, you have to teach what you believe. If you don't = believe in modes, don't teach them. Decide what kind of teacher you = are, and the rest will fall into place. Have trust, keep the faith, = find peace, and keep the pen on the page. mws -- Matthew W. Schmeer, MFA Associate Professor of English Johnson County Community College Box 31 12345 College Blvd. Overland Park, KS =20 =20 The information contained in this e-mail and any attachments thereto = ("e-mail") is sent by the Johnson County Community College ("JCCC") and = is intended to be confidential and for the use of only the individual or = entity named above. The information may be protected by federal and = state privacy and disclosures acts or other legal rules. If the reader = of this message is not the intended recipient, you are notified that = retention, dissemination, distribution or copying of this e-mail is = strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error please = immediately notify JCCC by email reply and immediately and permanently = delete this e-mail message and any attachments thereto. Thank you. =20 =20 -----Original Message----- =20 Hello everyone, =3D20 I am new to the listserv, so I hope I am not posing a recently discussed issue. At our institution we are going through some incredible growth, which brings about some changes to curriculum. Our college still relies on rhetorical modes (cause & effect, description, compare & contrast, etc.) to teach our Freshman Composition course. As a two-year school, our students only are required to take one semester of English, and we have to cover narrative through research in this class. As we reevaluate our composition class, we are discussing the validity/effectiveness of teaching the modes. I'm wondering how many of your institutions teach the modes, and if you find the modes valuable or without much merit in Freshman Composition. Some of us see little value in teaching modes, while others feel they are necessary for students to know. Also, what are the objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete their English requirement (especially in two-year colleges)? =3D20 Thank you, Justin Barber Instructor, English Stark State College=3D20 330.494.6170 ext. 4078 jbarber@starkstate.edu ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8228F.BC234FCE Content-Type: application/ms-tnef; name="winmail.dat" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IjQFAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEgAEAEwAAAFJlOiBUZWFjaGluZyBNb2Rl cwBMBgEFgAMADgAAANcHCwAIABcAEAAzAAQATwEBIIADAA4AAADXBwsACAAXABAAMwAEAE8BAQmA AQAhAAAANDg5QTBDMzA0NzNEM0U0OTgyNzZGRDJFQUQ3MDlBQ0UASQcBA5AGAEwUAAA2AAAAAwAm AAAAAAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQDOTyO8jyLIAR4APQABAAAABAAAAFJlOgACAUcAAQAAADAAAABjPVVT O2E9IDtwPUpDQ0M7bD1BQy1FWENIMDMtMDcxMTA5MDUxNjUxWi0xNzE1NgAeAEkAAQAAADIAAABU ZWFjaGluZ19Db21wb3NpdGlvbiBkaWdlc3QsIFZvbCAxICMxMjkyIC0gMiBtc2dzAB5pQABOAIAE 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[Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical Modes Message-ID: <4733EA900200001A0002BF9B@mail-out.email.uvsc.edu> "Modes" are where thinking and writing seem to come together, in sometimes really problematic ways. Modes seem to represent particular mental operations pretty independent of writing -- narration, description, exposition, and persuasion -- these are the things a mind does in interaction with other minds, relatively discrete operations, and there must be some merit in practicing them in isolation. Writing, however, tends to be a good bit more complex, and outside a freshman comp classroom, it's pretty rare to find any actual writing that uses just one mode. Instead, we tend to talk about writing as *genres* -- habitual written expressions used to conduct various social activities -- and genres use whatever all modes it takes to accomplish whatever activity. So when we look at "real" writing -- insofar as writing done outside a composition classroom is any more real than writing done in it -- we don't find modes. The pedagogical leap, then, becomes pretty clear: to believe that teaching modes-based writing in the composition classroom is effective for helping students learn to write well for purposes outside the comp classroom, you have to believe that there's something about the modes that 1) makes them fruitful to practice in isolation and 2) makes the learning achieved during that practice transferable to the much more "mixed" reality of genre-based writing. I'm pretty skeptical of this. I'm not sure the "narration" in a narrative essay looks enough like the narration in, say, a research report or an accident report to make it worth teaching -- why not just teach "narrative," broadly, by looking at actual instances of narrative as it appears in various genres? And, at the same time, if you're busy teaching description and "informative" papers, a very real concern is, when will you have time to teach students the actual genres they are likely to be writing next semester, or a few months after they graduate? But I think we have to grant that the jury is out on this one -- there's not, that I'm aware of, really good evidence on whether or not teaching mental operations in isolation has a positive influence on later "contextualized" performance of those operations or not. Perhaps others do know of such evidence, either way. Cheers -- Doug Dr. Doug Downs Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric Writing Program Coordinator Dept. of English and Literature Utah Valley State College 800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 LA 126g 801-863-8572 >>> "Claire Lamonica" 11/08/07 2:19 PM >>> Welcome to the conversation! I'm glad you've felt "brave" (?) enough to ask some good questions! Alex has done a nice job of addressing the one about modes. (And he's presented a perspective with which many on this and other lists would concur. I'll answer your second question: Click on the link below to see the Outcomes for FY Composition collaboratively produced by the Council of Writing Program Administrators, and used (in one form or another) widely at 2- and 4-year schools across the country. It will reinforce what Alex has said and give you a good starting point for conversations about outcomes at your schools. http://wpacouncil.org/positions/outcomes.html To learn more about the Council of Writing Program Administrators ('cause why should you value what they have to say if you don't know who they are?), go to www.wpacouncil,.org. Yours in the teaching of writing, Claire Lamonica Illinois State University theteach wrote: >> --I'm wondering how many of your institutions teach the modes, and if >> you find the modes valuable or without much merit in Freshman >> Composition. Some of us see little value in teaching modes, while >> others feel they are necessary for students to know. Also, what are >> the objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete >> their English requirement (especially in two-year colleges)-- > > We often think this. Consider that forms of narrative and description > are used by social workers, people in the medical and legal > professions. Learning how to write case history, for example, requires > learning how to tell a story in as objective terms as possible. Part > of the case history is narrative. > > Descriptive assignments benefit not only those entering the above > mentioned professions, but those entering the fields such as > advertising and business. > > For some it is easier to teach modes as single assignments and then > teach students to weave them into a larger assignment, such as the > research paper or case study. A narrative essay, a descriptive essay, > a comparison/contrast essay, all must have a thesis, supporting > evidence, and a conclusion. There often is the implied argument in > each of these. Perhaps consider teaching as parts of the total > document rather than as isolated assinments. > > I have found that for some students, developing a clear understanding > of the different modes in isolated instances helps them to then weave > them into a longer essay. It does not work for everyone. For other > students I let them draft as they wish and then help them recognize > where they may have used description, narrative, comparison/contrast > and so on. Then we examine whether these choices are effective and > help to support the intended message or thesis. > > On another discussion list, there was a lengthy discussion about this > problem, but I am having a senior moment and cannot remember where. > Surely someone on this list saw it on the other one. > > alex > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > update your information. _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition To unsubscribe, please visit http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and update your information. From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Fri Nov 9 15:28:37 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Barber, Justin) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 10:28:37 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of RhetoricalModes In-Reply-To: <4733EA900200001A0002BF9B@mail-out.email.uvsc.edu> References: <4733EA900200001A0002BF9B@mail-out.email.uvsc.edu> Message-ID: <99F8F372EC900F41BE32239100CFA890026282BA@ssct-email.starkstate.edu> Thank you for the insightful and thought-out responses. This is exactly the kind of conversation I'm looking for to help us examine our current use of modes and if/how effective teaching them will be. Personally, I've never been a huge fan of modes for the very reasons some of you mentioned, the compartmentalize writing and sometimes we end up teaching the text rather than the student. I've too noticed that when modes are taught as separate texts, often times the location, purpose and therefore strategies of "why" to write in that form or how to address the topic/purpose gets lost. The approach seems to be the key if we do decide to keep the modes on. Justin Barber Instructor, English Stark State College 330.494.6170 ext. 4078 jbarber@starkstate.edu -----Original Message----- From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of Doug Downs Sent: Friday, November 09, 2007 6:59 AM To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of RhetoricalModes "Modes" are where thinking and writing seem to come together, in sometimes really problematic ways. Modes seem to represent particular mental operations pretty independent of writing -- narration, description, exposition, and persuasion -- these are the things a mind does in interaction with other minds, relatively discrete operations, and there must be some merit in practicing them in isolation. Writing, however, tends to be a good bit more complex, and outside a freshman comp classroom, it's pretty rare to find any actual writing that uses just one mode. Instead, we tend to talk about writing as *genres* -- habitual written expressions used to conduct various social activities -- and genres use whatever all modes it takes to accomplish whatever activity. So when we look at "real" writing -- insofar as writing done outside a composition classroom is any more real than writing done in it -- we don't find modes. The pedagogical leap, then, becomes pretty clear: to believe that teaching modes-based writing in the composition classroom is effective for helping students learn to write well for purposes outside the comp classroom, you have to believe that there's something about the modes that 1) makes them fruitful to practice in isolation and 2) makes the learning achieved during that practice transferable to the much more "mixed" reality of genre-based writing. I'm pretty skeptical of this. I'm not sure the "narration" in a narrative essay looks enough like the narration in, say, a research report or an accident report to make it worth teaching -- why not just teach "narrative," broadly, by looking at actual instances of narrative as it appears in various genres? And, at the same time, if you're busy teaching description and "informative" papers, a very real concern is, when will you have time to teach students the actual genres they are likely to be writing next semester, or a few months after they graduate? But I think we have to grant that the jury is out on this one -- there's not, that I'm aware of, really good evidence on whether or not teaching mental operations in isolation has a positive influence on later "contextualized" performance of those operations or not. Perhaps others do know of such evidence, either way. Cheers -- Doug Dr. Doug Downs Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric Writing Program Coordinator Dept. of English and Literature Utah Valley State College 800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 LA 126g 801-863-8572 >>> "Claire Lamonica" 11/08/07 2:19 PM >>> Welcome to the conversation! I'm glad you've felt "brave" (?) enough to ask some good questions! Alex has done a nice job of addressing the one about modes. (And he's presented a perspective with which many on this and other lists would concur. I'll answer your second question: Click on the link below to see the Outcomes for FY Composition collaboratively produced by the Council of Writing Program Administrators, and used (in one form or another) widely at 2- and 4-year schools across the country. It will reinforce what Alex has said and give you a good starting point for conversations about outcomes at your schools. http://wpacouncil.org/positions/outcomes.html To learn more about the Council of Writing Program Administrators ('cause why should you value what they have to say if you don't know who they are?), go to www.wpacouncil,.org. Yours in the teaching of writing, Claire Lamonica Illinois State University theteach wrote: >> --I'm wondering how many of your institutions teach the modes, and if >> you find the modes valuable or without much merit in Freshman >> Composition. Some of us see little value in teaching modes, while >> others feel they are necessary for students to know. Also, what are >> the objectives students must/should meet to successfully complete >> their English requirement (especially in two-year colleges)-- > > We often think this. Consider that forms of narrative and description > are used by social workers, people in the medical and legal > professions. Learning how to write case history, for example, requires > learning how to tell a story in as objective terms as possible. Part > of the case history is narrative. > > Descriptive assignments benefit not only those entering the above > mentioned professions, but those entering the fields such as > advertising and business. > > For some it is easier to teach modes as single assignments and then > teach students to weave them into a larger assignment, such as the > research paper or case study. A narrative essay, a descriptive essay, > a comparison/contrast essay, all must have a thesis, supporting > evidence, and a conclusion. There often is the implied argument in > each of these. Perhaps consider teaching as parts of the total > document rather than as isolated assinments. > > I have found that for some students, developing a clear understanding > of the different modes in isolated instances helps them to then weave > them into a longer essay. It does not work for everyone. For other > students I let them draft as they wish and then help them recognize > where they may have used description, narrative, comparison/contrast > and so on. Then we examine whether these choices are effective and > help to support the intended message or thesis. > > On another discussion list, there was a lengthy discussion about this > problem, but I am having a senior moment and cannot remember where. > Surely someone on this list saw it on the other one. > > alex > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > update your information. _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition To unsubscribe, please visit http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and update your information. _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition To unsubscribe, please visit http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and update your information. From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Fri Nov 9 15:33:19 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (theteach) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 09:33:19 -0600 (Central Standard Time) Subject: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical Modes In-Reply-To: <4733EA900200001A0002BF9B@mail-out.email.uvsc.edu> References: <4733EA900200001A0002BF9B@mail-out.email.uvsc.edu> Message-ID: > Writing, however, tends to be a good bit more complex, and outside a > freshman comp classroom, it's pretty rare to find any actual writing > that uses just one mode. Instead, we tend to talk about writing as > *genres* -- habitual written expressions used to conduct various social > activities -- and genres use whatever all modes it takes to accomplish > whatever activity. So when we look at "real" writing -- insofar as > writing done outside a composition classroom is any more real than > writing done in it -- we don't find modes. Doug, what genres do you have in mind? alex From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Fri Nov 9 17:16:35 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Kathy Fitch) Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2007 11:16:35 -0600 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of RhetoricalModes In-Reply-To: <4733EA900200001A0002BF9B@mail-out.email.uvsc.edu> Message-ID: <20071109171644.0AB0F758064@smtpauth00.csee.onr.siteprotect.com> <> Like Alex, my first thought was, "Well, which genres are those, then?" This week, I'm composing a hospital website; a corporate board portal; a review designed to help an author consider some productive paths toward revising a piece for publication; countless email posts; and a proposal to shift to a new virtual office plan that is slightly more expensive in the very short term, but also far more flexible, and likely not only to save money but also to generate greater income within the year. Before the end of the month, I'm also going to need to come up with a strategic tech plan for a private elementary school, training materials for a BOT tech session, all the pieces for a new corporate website in the making, and some still kind of fuzzy in my mind but very necessary appeals for tech funding. Along the way, I'll also participate in editing all sorts of things that I didn't actually write, including service proposals and agreements. Over the course of a year, I'll write or be a part of writing all of those sorts of things, plus advertisements, brochures, sales ready messages, letters of various sorts for audiences of various sizes, and who knows what all else. Poke around much in any of the bigger projects, and you find that they are made up of many smaller writing tasks that must be both managed well individually and balanced and coordinated to serve the purposes of the overall projects. So, corporate webs needs things like biographies written to highlight relevant education and experience, mission and vision statements, product and service descriptions, and newsy features designed to underscore accomplishments and development. Sometimes, they also need directions, policies, and procedures. They might also require client endorsements. Always, they entail lots of attention to visual composition, as well, and to usability. It's hard to point to which college courses prepared me for these kinds of writing. Somehow, all of the writing experiences I've had to date--in and out of school--have coalesced to make managing these compositions possible, but who knows how? Sure does seem, though, that practice and performance are related to one another in really complex ways. Lots and lots of practice sure doesn't appear directly to correlate to performance. I haven't written an FPT in a long while. Can't recall anyone asking me to whip up a rhetorical analysis, or an explication of a poem, or a researched essay, lately. On the other hand, I'm constantly called upon to analyze, organize, describe, compare, contrast, research, evaluate, persuade, narrate, argue, and discern or create (both, generally) the needs and desires of an audience. Then again, much of the composition I care most about--and the reading, too--happens well beyond the realm of my professional life. I wouldn't care much to trade away the various educational experiences that have fed that part of my self. Nobody is calling me asking for a Philosophy essay, a review of the Pysch lit, or an Econ paper, these days, but I'm glad for all of those experiences, and think they really have enriched my world in countless ways, as, no doubt, did the modes essays and FPTs of long ago. Should we demand of all educational experiences that they have clearly discernable practical applications? Probably, we have no clue at all about which genres are students will be working in over the next 10 or 20 years. Seems likely that some of them haven't been invented, yet. I was, somehow, learning to compose for the web before there was one. Kathy From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Fri Nov 9 18:09:51 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (theteach) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:09:51 -0600 (Central Standard Time) Subject: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical Modes In-Reply-To: <4733EA900200001A0002BF9B@mail-out.email.uvsc.edu> References: <4733EA900200001A0002BF9B@mail-out.email.uvsc.edu> Message-ID: As I read Doug's reflection, I began to comment beneath each point, isolating the point. Then I discovered that I wanted to address another point Doug made while still commenting on one of his previous points. In other words, I discoved that I had to change my response mode if my comments were to make sense to anyone besides myself. Of course, as I began to respond, I thought about the modes I would use to illustrate my point(s). Even now, as I begin draft 2, or I might call it 3, since I wrote and re-wrote as I composed draft 1, I find myself acutely aware of the writing process. As we all can agree, the writing process is complex. My final choice, at least, I think it is my final choice (I won't get anything done today if I keep playing with words and phrases, all in the name of addressing the value/purpose of rhetorical modes.), will be a response written as a complete, though perhaps unrefined, essay, though my preference during email dialogue is to comment after each point made by the person to whom I am responding. Keeps things clearer for me after several messages have transpired. I tend to digress and do not compose easily. I much prefer to take a piece already written and revise it...preferably another person's work. Now that sounds as though I like to plagiarize!! I find teaching others how to do something, in this case writing, is much easier than engaging in the writing process. Now enough of this narrative!! I am enjoying my Friday morning...a bit of oatmeal/fruit and a soy vanilla latte. Draft 4 (already deleted the added prattle I wrote in #3 adding different prattle). If Justin's faculty is trying to establish a departmental policy concerning the teaching of modes, what questions are they asking? Perhaps the basic question to ask is: What do we want to accomplish in FY comp courses? A second question: Who is the audience? That is what skills do they possess when they enter the FY comp classroom? Keep in mind, the time frame--10 wks or 15wks. Do they want to review the writing process(es) with students and perhaps move them to a more sophisticated level of writing? Do they want to prepare them to write in other classes--the research paper, the web presentation, the case study, the report on problem solving? Do they want to prepare them to write in the public world--job applications, resume essays, letters requesting information, letters of dispute, professional reports, legal briefs, or whatever we can think of as public writing? Do they want to prepare the students to write a coherent, thought provoking, persuasive, analytical argument in such a way that emphasis is on the process of writing rather than the end product? In teaching the process, can they teach the students the tools they need to make the product acceptable? Most of us agree that teaching modes in isolation without a context may not be fruitful. I argue that students should be able to identify them and that sometimes looking at them in isolation may help. I do not argue that week 1 be devoted to narrative, week 2 to comparison/contrast, week 3 to description and then never mentioned afterwards. But I think it is important that they can identify them. I ask again, what is the purpose of the FY comp class? What writing skills should they possess when they finish the course. Have you ever read some of those goals departments list? (don't want to get started on this!!) But then, I still think students should be able to identify the parts of a sentence. :) Doug talks of genres... When I read that term, I always wonder what the individual has in mind. I think in terms of western, romance, thriller, mystery,.... :) I wonder what comes to Doug's mind or others when they use the term genres. Doug writes: habitual written expressions used to conduct various social activities. I wonder what that means. I want an example. I disagree with Doug when he writes: So when we look at "real" writing -- insofar as writing done outside a composition classroom is any more real than writing done in it -- we don't find modes. We do find modes. We find comparisons, narratives, descriptions, and so on. Perhaps we have to define the mode. What does, for example, "narrative" mean? When we talk about teaching narrative, do we have in mind the personal story or do we have a different concept, a broader definition, of the term. As Doug writes, "teach 'narrative' broadly. Perhaps ask the students to write a paragraph defining the mode in question. :) I offer that descriptive essays and process essays, if taught (I started to write "correctly.") well (nice vauge term), then students have learned to analyze and organize as well as synthesize. Again, provide a context. Of course all as this takes time. Doug asks: at the same time, if you're busy teaching description and "informative" papers, a very real concern is, when will you have time to teach students the actual genres they are likely to be writing next semester, or a few months after they graduate? Certainly a legitimate concern. Again, the facutly must consider their curriculum in terms of the length of the course. Generally in a semester course, a class meets 150 minutes a week for 15 weeks. What can we hope to accomplish in 2250 minutes. Yes, for every 50 mins in class, students should spend 100 out of class. So for the 3hr (150min) class, 6 hours of their week should be devoted to writing. So....What does the department want to accomplish in a limited amount of time. What genres will should they learn in FY comp that prepare them for the next semester or after graduation. An idea comes to mind.... perhaps poll other departments and ask them what they expect a student to be able to do in a written assignment. As individual teachers what do we want to happen in our classrooms? What do we want students to accomplish in 10 or 15 weeks? What do we want them to be able to write? We can suggest that they learn to analyze, learn to use supporting evidence for their thesis, use descriptive verbs, write coherent sentences so that readers other than themselves can understand what they write. What skills do we expect them to have when they enter the FY comp class? Is there room in our syllabus to teach what they should know but do not? It sounds so simple at first...let's consider the the value/purpose of rhetorical modes. But as Doug points out: "But I think we have to grant that the jury is out on this one -- there's not, that I'm aware of, really good evidence on whether or not teaching mental operations in isolation has a positive influence on later 'contextualized' performance of those operations or not. Perhaps others do know of such evidence, either way." We create a curriculum, our syllabus, based on certain assumptions. We come armed with knowledge from books and articles we have read, classes we have taken, research we have done, discussions such as these. Many of the contributors to this listserv are accomplished authors and teachers in the field of compostion. As evidenced by all that has been published, the "jury is out on this one." It is out on more than the "to teach or not to teach" modes. We wrestle with all kinds of methods...which is best or even better than another. How do students learn? What causes them to learn? The faculty considering the question of teaching modes needs to create a broad curriculum that allows for variations in accomplishing its goals. If a department wants modes taught, are they going to assess the students' grasp of mode by requiring an exit exam? :) If they think teaching modes is good, how will they asses whether or not they were taught effectively. Just throwing in another little concern: assessment. I share a story, a narrative, if you will (gently teasing us all) that I hope illustrates the complexity of methods of teaching. We ask ourselves, "what do we want our students to be able to do when they leave the FY comp class." Do we want them armed with life-lasting skills? When I interview prospective student middle/high school teachers, I give them a task. I have been teased and criticized for this challenge (and applauded), but it provides insights into the applicants. I tell them I am blind and would like them to describe a miniature french poodle (or another type of dog if they do not know what a french poodle looks like). As they begin their description, I draw my perception on the board. If they begin with it has 4 legs, I draw 4 legs on the board, randomly. Eventually they begin to realize this is not an easy task. They have not thought about ways to describe something to a blind person. They have not anlyzed the situation; they have not considered organization; they have not assessed the impact of their word choices. Admittedly they were on the spot. So what could they do? Two applicants stand out. One student was very bright and self-confident. She began by asking if I were blind from birth, if I had ever seen anything. Of course I had not seen a dog. So she offered shapes that I might know from touching or handling things. She remembered to begin with a body. The other student was not doing well during the interview. Then I posed my challenge. She began by asking, "may I touch you?" Yes, I replied. She gently took my arm and used it as her first point of reference. My forearm would be about the length of the poodle. My hand would be the head, that could move somewhat like the head of a dog. She happened to have curly hair. She took my hand and placed it on her head to indicate that the dog's fur is similar to her hair. By the time she finished the panel was in awe. Other students would struggle and some could not complete the exercise. Well, I would stop it if the situation became too embarrassing. I doubt that any teacher had taught these and the other students how to describe something to a blind person or how to disscect body parts of a dog. But somewhere along the line, they had been taught to observe, to analyze, to organize, to articulate in a way comfortable to them. Was it in their FY comp class? The one student who asked permission displayed an awareness of her surroundings and the importance of respecting personal space. Who are our students? What should they be able to do better once they leave our classrooms? What are we doing to prepare them to be effective writers in other classes and in their public lives. (maybe in their private ones also). What do we hold dear in terms of the teaching of composition? alex (alexandra for those of you who may not know me. In our email discourse, we do not see one another. I know a few of you from f2f conversations, but not everyone. :) ) Happy Friday!! From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Fri Nov 9 18:53:14 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (theteach) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 12:53:14 -0600 (Central Standard Time) Subject: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of RhetoricalModes In-Reply-To: <20071109171644.0AB0F758064@smtpauth00.csee.onr.siteprotect.com> References: <20071109171644.0AB0F758064@smtpauth00.csee.onr.siteprotect.com> Message-ID: As always, Kathy, you beautifully put things into perspective, perhaps I should add in context. :) You bring up some important points. We learn the basics somewhere along the line, but it is up to us to make them our own and to figure out (though not always consciously) how to use them. There is, however, the small matter of talent. In your case talent plays a significant role in what you do. You take the basic concept, say writing of a description, and create a masterpiece. I may have the same knowlege of the concept but lack the creativity. You also love exploration and inquiry. You love problem solving. As you describe the tasks that await you, you present a problem to be solved. You write: > It's hard to point to which college courses prepared me for these kinds > of writing. Somehow, all of the writing experiences I've had to > date--in and out of school--have coalesced to make managing these > compositions possible, but who knows how? ..... > On the other hand, I'm constantly called upon to analyze, organize, > describe, compare, contrast, research, evaluate, persuade, narrate, > argue, and discern or create (both, generally) the needs and desires of > an audience. > > Should we demand of all educational experiences that they have clearly > discernable practical applications? And do it in 10 or 15 weeks :) > Probably, we have no clue at all about which genres are students will be > working in over the next 10 or 20 years. Seems likely that some of them > haven't been invented, yet. I agree...we have no idea what to expect. > I was, somehow, learning to compose for the web before there was one. What will we be composing for next? Thank you Kathy for this reflection! alex From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Sat Nov 10 04:45:03 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Doug Downs) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 21:45:03 -0700 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of Rhetorical Modes Message-ID: <4734D6800200001A0002C187@mail-out.email.uvsc.edu> I read Alex's question about what I mean by genre as rhetorical rather than genuine (what an interesting and problematic contrast of terms), but for the record: I mean what most rhet/comp folks mean in their scholarly discussions of genre: Carolyn R. Miller, John Swales, and Carol Berkenkotter and Tom Huckin's definitions of and theorization of genres, based on a range of very solid research (too much to cite by title here, but just check 'em in CompPile if you wish). My extremely compressed, general definition was based on Swales' work, specifically. Their work isn't the definitive end of all questions about genre, by any means, but it's certainly sufficient to give us common starting points in discussing genre, and these folks are widely cited by other genre researchers. On the subject of definitions, and turnabout being fair play, what's the state of research on "rhetorical modes" right now? Genre is a subject of rich research because it's a key to understanding how writing works and how writers write and why writing looks the ways it does. Modes, rhetorical or otherwise, don't even *have* a definition outside textbooks -- do they? (It's not like I can claim I read enough -- entirely possible I missed the definitive work on rhetorical modes, so I'm open to correction here.) So, what counts as a "mode"? What makes a mode "rhetorical"? Isn't "rhetorical" "mode" an oxymoron? Rhetoric stresses the importance of rich contextualization; mode, in every way we all have used it in these posts, is sterilely decontextualized. The problem for me arises when we conflate -- as I think responses to my post have, with something approaching exuberance -- a mental activity with a written product. Since I never argued that we don't use comparison, definition, example, analysis, narration, description, and the like *in* our writing, Alex's *listserv post* (that would be the genre) using all these "modes" doesn't contradict my point that, for example, a listserv post that uses comparison is not a comparison paper. --Doug Dr. Doug Downs Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric Writing Program Coordinator Dept. of English and Literature Utah Valley State College 800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 LA 126g 801-863-8572 >>> "theteach" 11/09/07 11:09 AM >>> As I read Doug's reflection, I began to comment beneath each point, isolating the point. Then I discovered that I wanted to address another point Doug made while still commenting on one of his previous points. In other words, I discoved that I had to change my response mode if my comments were to make sense to anyone besides myself. Of course, as I began to respond, I thought about the modes I would use to illustrate my point(s). Even now, as I begin draft 2, or I might call it 3, since I wrote and re-wrote as I composed draft 1, I find myself acutely aware of the writing process. As we all can agree, the writing process is complex. My final choice, at least, I think it is my final choice (I won't get anything done today if I keep playing with words and phrases, all in the name of addressing the value/purpose of rhetorical modes.), will be a response written as a complete, though perhaps unrefined, essay, though my preference during email dialogue is to comment after each point made by the person to whom I am responding. Keeps things clearer for me after several messages have transpired. I tend to digress and do not compose easily. I much prefer to take a piece already written and revise it...preferably another person's work. Now that sounds as though I like to plagiarize!! I find teaching others how to do something, in this case writing, is much easier than engaging in the writing process. Now enough of this narrative!! I am enjoying my Friday morning...a bit of oatmeal/fruit and a soy vanilla latte. Draft 4 (already deleted the added prattle I wrote in #3 adding different prattle). If Justin's faculty is trying to establish a departmental policy concerning the teaching of modes, what questions are they asking? Perhaps the basic question to ask is: What do we want to accomplish in FY comp courses? A second question: Who is the audience? That is what skills do they possess when they enter the FY comp classroom? Keep in mind, the time frame--10 wks or 15wks. Do they want to review the writing process(es) with students and perhaps move them to a more sophisticated level of writing? Do they want to prepare them to write in other classes--the research paper, the web presentation, the case study, the report on problem solving? Do they want to prepare them to write in the public world--job applications, resume essays, letters requesting information, letters of dispute, professional reports, legal briefs, or whatever we can think of as public writing? Do they want to prepare the students to write a coherent, thought provoking, persuasive, analytical argument in such a way that emphasis is on the process of writing rather than the end product? In teaching the process, can they teach the students the tools they need to make the product acceptable? Most of us agree that teaching modes in isolation without a context may not be fruitful. I argue that students should be able to identify them and that sometimes looking at them in isolation may help. I do not argue that week 1 be devoted to narrative, week 2 to comparison/contrast, week 3 to description and then never mentioned afterwards. But I think it is important that they can identify them. I ask again, what is the purpose of the FY comp class? What writing skills should they possess when they finish the course. Have you ever read some of those goals departments list? (don't want to get started on this!!) But then, I still think students should be able to identify the parts of a sentence. :) Doug talks of genres... When I read that term, I always wonder what the individual has in mind. I think in terms of western, romance, thriller, mystery,.... :) I wonder what comes to Doug's mind or others when they use the term genres. Doug writes: habitual written expressions used to conduct various social activities. I wonder what that means. I want an example. I disagree with Doug when he writes: So when we look at "real" writing -- insofar as writing done outside a composition classroom is any more real than writing done in it -- we don't find modes. We do find modes. We find comparisons, narratives, descriptions, and so on. Perhaps we have to define the mode. What does, for example, "narrative" mean? When we talk about teaching narrative, do we have in mind the personal story or do we have a different concept, a broader definition, of the term. As Doug writes, "teach 'narrative' broadly. Perhaps ask the students to write a paragraph defining the mode in question. :) I offer that descriptive essays and process essays, if taught (I started to write "correctly.") well (nice vauge term), then students have learned to analyze and organize as well as synthesize. Again, provide a context. Of course all as this takes time. Doug asks: at the same time, if you're busy teaching description and "informative" papers, a very real concern is, when will you have time to teach students the actual genres they are likely to be writing next semester, or a few months after they graduate? Certainly a legitimate concern. Again, the facutly must consider their curriculum in terms of the length of the course. Generally in a semester course, a class meets 150 minutes a week for 15 weeks. What can we hope to accomplish in 2250 minutes. Yes, for every 50 mins in class, students should spend 100 out of class. So for the 3hr (150min) class, 6 hours of their week should be devoted to writing. So....What does the department want to accomplish in a limited amount of time. What genres will should they learn in FY comp that prepare them for the next semester or after graduation. An idea comes to mind.... perhaps poll other departments and ask them what they expect a student to be able to do in a written assignment. As individual teachers what do we want to happen in our classrooms? What do we want students to accomplish in 10 or 15 weeks? What do we want them to be able to write? We can suggest that they learn to analyze, learn to use supporting evidence for their thesis, use descriptive verbs, write coherent sentences so that readers other than themselves can understand what they write. What skills do we expect them to have when they enter the FY comp class? Is there room in our syllabus to teach what they should know but do not? It sounds so simple at first...let's consider the the value/purpose of rhetorical modes. But as Doug points out: "But I think we have to grant that the jury is out on this one -- there's not, that I'm aware of, really good evidence on whether or not teaching mental operations in isolation has a positive influence on later 'contextualized' performance of those operations or not. Perhaps others do know of such evidence, either way." We create a curriculum, our syllabus, based on certain assumptions. We come armed with knowledge from books and articles we have read, classes we have taken, research we have done, discussions such as these. Many of the contributors to this listserv are accomplished authors and teachers in the field of compostion. As evidenced by all that has been published, the "jury is out on this one." It is out on more than the "to teach or not to teach" modes. We wrestle with all kinds of methods...which is best or even better than another. How do students learn? What causes them to learn? The faculty considering the question of teaching modes needs to create a broad curriculum that allows for variations in accomplishing its goals. If a department wants modes taught, are they going to assess the students' grasp of mode by requiring an exit exam? :) If they think teaching modes is good, how will they asses whether or not they were taught effectively. Just throwing in another little concern: assessment. I share a story, a narrative, if you will (gently teasing us all) that I hope illustrates the complexity of methods of teaching. We ask ourselves, "what do we want our students to be able to do when they leave the FY comp class." Do we want them armed with life-lasting skills? When I interview prospective student middle/high school teachers, I give them a task. I have been teased and criticized for this challenge (and applauded), but it provides insights into the applicants. I tell them I am blind and would like them to describe a miniature french poodle (or another type of dog if they do not know what a french poodle looks like). As they begin their description, I draw my perception on the board. If they begin with it has 4 legs, I draw 4 legs on the board, randomly. Eventually they begin to realize this is not an easy task. They have not thought about ways to describe something to a blind person. They have not anlyzed the situation; they have not considered organization; they have not assessed the impact of their word choices. Admittedly they were on the spot. So what could they do? Two applicants stand out. One student was very bright and self-confident. She began by asking if I were blind from birth, if I had ever seen anything. Of course I had not seen a dog. So she offered shapes that I might know from touching or handling things. She remembered to begin with a body. The other student was not doing well during the interview. Then I posed my challenge. She began by asking, "may I touch you?" Yes, I replied. She gently took my arm and used it as her first point of reference. My forearm would be about the length of the poodle. My hand would be the head, that could move somewhat like the head of a dog. She happened to have curly hair. She took my hand and placed it on her head to indicate that the dog's fur is similar to her hair. By the time she finished the panel was in awe. Other students would struggle and some could not complete the exercise. Well, I would stop it if the situation became too embarrassing. I doubt that any teacher had taught these and the other students how to describe something to a blind person or how to disscect body parts of a dog. But somewhere along the line, they had been taught to observe, to analyze, to organize, to articulate in a way comfortable to them. Was it in their FY comp class? The one student who asked permission displayed an awareness of her surroundings and the importance of respecting personal space. Who are our students? What should they be able to do better once they leave our classrooms? What are we doing to prepare them to be effective writers in other classes and in their public lives. (maybe in their private ones also). What do we hold dear in terms of the teaching of composition? alex (alexandra for those of you who may not know me. In our email discourse, we do not see one another. I know a few of you from f2f conversations, but not everyone. :) ) Happy Friday!! _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition To unsubscribe, please visit http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and update your information. From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Sat Nov 10 05:06:58 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Doug Downs) Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2007 22:06:58 -0700 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose of RhetoricalModes Message-ID: <4734DB9F0200001A0002C18B@mail-out.email.uvsc.edu> I would be terribly hard pressed to come up with a better list of genres than Kathy's. :-) And I *love* the very stark contrast here of *what* (texts) we write and the patterns of thought those texts often demonstrate. Based on that, two things: 1. Given all the time, projects, and courses that have elapsed since those modes essays and FPTs, it actually seems really dubious to imagine that they are what now enable Kathy or any of us to "analyze, organize, describe, compare, contrast, research, evaluate, persuade, narrate, argue, and discern or create (both, generally) the needs and desires of an audience." (And regarding that "audience" thing, see the final two lines of this post.) Given what we know of decontextualized instruction, it seems far more likely that we had to unlearn some of that -- or learn it much more deeply than we were actually taught it -- to make use of it. But in any event, surely we learned as much about these modes *of thought* in all our college courses as we did in our writing course? 2. Following that line of questioning, modes essays, if they teach us anything, teach us a lot more about thinking than about writing. I understand these are not neatly separable activities, but nor are they the *same* activity. Respectfully, I would contest the assertion that Kathy learned to compose for the web before there was one. She may well be one who has helped compose the web -- establish its conventions and test out what works and what doesn't in web writing -- or, like me, she may more or less accept what others say about successful web design (at least when it fits my own experiences), and so be more of an implementer of now-established principles. But writing for the web -- that is, writing webpages, or the texts in various modalities that comprise webpages -- obviously takes knowledge other than and beyond the modes (if that's what we're calling them), though those modes are the *ways of thinking* that help all of us decide what works in a given kind of writing and what doesn't. And that would seem to return us to Alex's questions about the purpose of writing courses. So, what's wrong with a writing course that teaches principles of effective writing for the web? Won't we be teaching rhetoric -- which, not incidentally, the modes never quite got around to doing? (And if you're wondering where I came up with that, read Ed Corbett's accounts of how and why he decided to bring classical rhetoric back into the writing class after decades of modes-only instruction.) Cheers -- Doug Dr. Doug Downs Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric Writing Program Coordinator Dept. of English and Literature Utah Valley State College 800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 LA 126g 801-863-8572 >>> "Kathy Fitch" 11/09/07 10:16 AM >>> <> Like Alex, my first thought was, "Well, which genres are those, then?" This week, I'm composing a hospital website; a corporate board portal; a review designed to help an author consider some productive paths toward revising a piece for publication; countless email posts; and a proposal to shift to a new virtual office plan that is slightly more expensive in the very short term, but also far more flexible, and likely not only to save money but also to generate greater income within the year. Before the end of the month, I'm also going to need to come up with a strategic tech plan for a private elementary school, training materials for a BOT tech session, all the pieces for a new corporate website in the making, and some still kind of fuzzy in my mind but very necessary appeals for tech funding. Along the way, I'll also participate in editing all sorts of things that I didn't actually write, including service proposals and agreements. Over the course of a year, I'll write or be a part of writing all of those sorts of things, plus advertisements, brochures, sales ready messages, letters of various sorts for audiences of various sizes, and who knows what all else. Poke around much in any of the bigger projects, and you find that they are made up of many smaller writing tasks that must be both managed well individually and balanced and coordinated to serve the purposes of the overall projects. So, corporate webs needs things like biographies written to highlight relevant education and experience, mission and vision statements, product and service descriptions, and newsy features designed to underscore accomplishments and development. Sometimes, they also need directions, policies, and procedures. They might also require client endorsements. Always, they entail lots of attention to visual composition, as well, and to usability. It's hard to point to which college courses prepared me for these kinds of writing. Somehow, all of the writing experiences I've had to date--in and out of school--have coalesced to make managing these compositions possible, but who knows how? Sure does seem, though, that practice and performance are related to one another in really complex ways. Lots and lots of practice sure doesn't appear directly to correlate to performance. I haven't written an FPT in a long while. Can't recall anyone asking me to whip up a rhetorical analysis, or an explication of a poem, or a researched essay, lately. On the other hand, I'm constantly called upon to analyze, organize, describe, compare, contrast, research, evaluate, persuade, narrate, argue, and discern or create (both, generally) the needs and desires of an audience. Then again, much of the composition I care most about--and the reading, too--happens well beyond the realm of my professional life. I wouldn't care much to trade away the various educational experiences that have fed that part of my self. Nobody is calling me asking for a Philosophy essay, a review of the Pysch lit, or an Econ paper, these days, but I'm glad for all of those experiences, and think they really have enriched my world in countless ways, as, no doubt, did the modes essays and FPTs of long ago. Should we demand of all educational experiences that they have clearly discernable practical applications? Probably, we have no clue at all about which genres are students will be working in over the next 10 or 20 years. Seems likely that some of them haven't been invented, yet. I was, somehow, learning to compose for the web before there was one. Kathy _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition To unsubscribe, please visit http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and update your information. From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Sat Nov 10 18:49:18 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Kathy Fitch) Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:49:18 -0600 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose ofRhetoricalModes In-Reply-To: <4734DB9F0200001A0002C18B@mail-out.email.uvsc.edu> Message-ID: <20071110184928.681CF758069@smtpauth00.csee.onr.siteprotect.com> As I'm sure Doug appreciates, I'm not claiming to be prescient. (Ah, if only!) Instead, I'm simply pointing out that all of that school practice helped make it possible for me--for all of us--to write in genres that didn't yet exist when the practice was still underway. I studied film, as well, and that clearly plays a big role in my case, too. None of us who are writing in these spaces now came to them tabula rasa, even though the spaces as genres were new to us. We brought with us all that we had already begun to learn about composition. Something, it seems, transferred (to invoke an early discussion) or otherwise came along for the ride. I can't imagine why we would suppose that early play or work with modes, with FPTs, with parsing, with paragraphs (remember paragraph exercises, way back when?), etc. wouldn't be part of this process of recombination and adaptation or whatever we're calling it. Soooooo. Just throwing out there the possibility that training in specific modes--so that we're preparing students, as Doug said earlier, for "the actual genres they are likely to be writing next semester, or a few months after they graduate"--is 1) tough, since we aren't very likely to know what those are going to be, especially beyond school, and 2) perhaps not as crucial as practice in critical thinking, composition moves and habits of mind, or whatever we're going to call these skills. (What *should* we call them? "Skills" is possibly not even the right word, there. Strategies, maybe. Understood as strategies that can ultimately be combined and adapted, the modes are certainly useful.) Practice is always something other than the thing being practiced for, and that seems fine to me. Kathy From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Mon Nov 12 05:53:27 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Lawrence McKenzie) Date: Mon, 12 Nov 2007 00:53:27 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #1297 - 1 msg Message-ID: <4737A4080200008E0001DF86@WVUGW01.wvu.edu> Hi, Colleagues, That is, if I may comment--Do I have a "relevant" voice regarding the two-year college campus? The tone is the prior e-mails seems to suggest that I may not have a "relevent" voice. At any rate, our campus is primarily a two-year, with four-year programs, school. The quetsi on about "modes" has peaked my interest because so many folks on campus--faculty and adujnct faculty, have defined their courses objectives, and Department uniform syllabus--which, idenifies mode-based or process-based courses. At any rate, I westle with teaching the modes, since there's so much more expected, however, However, I have incorporated mode-based teaching and "computers"; thus, I think the electronic courses should, and ought, to be utulized in the classroom. I do have concerned about the need to synchronize writing assignments, text book, etc, In short, electronic courses shoudl be taught, because it does not accomodate student learing practices. So, I use it as a tool to explore the subject-of-study. While it is a economic boon for unversity and, never, a boon or faculty. WebCT/Blackboard is not hte answer to fewer dollars and higher quality in our respective departments. Continue, please.... Lawrence --------------------------------------------- Lawrence J. McKenzie English Department West Virginia University Parkersburg 300 Campus Drive Parkersburg, WV 26104 (304) 424-8000 (Campus) (304) 424-8301 (Division Secretary) The information contained in this electronic mail message is sender's business confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended solely for the addressee(s). Access to this Internet electronic mail message by anyone other than the intended recipient is not authorized. If you are not the intended recipient, any disclosure, copying, distribution, or any action taken, or omitted, is prohibited and may be unlawful. The sender believes this E-mail (and any attachments) was free of any virus, worm, Trojan horse, and/or malicious code when sent. This message (and its attachments) could have been infected during transmission, however. By reading the message and opening any attachments, the recipient accepts full responsibility for taking protective and remedial action about viruses and other defects. West Virginia University at Parkersburg, and/or the sender of this message, is not liable for any loss or damage arising in any way from this message or its attachments. >>> 11/11/07 12:01 PM >>> Send Teaching_Composition mailing list submissions to teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com You can reach the person managing the list at teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Teaching_Composition digest..." Today's Topics: 1. RE: The Value/Purpose ofRhetoricalModes (Kathy Fitch) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Kathy Fitch" To: Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] The Value/Purpose ofRhetoricalModes Date: Sat, 10 Nov 2007 12:49:18 -0600 Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com As I'm sure Doug appreciates, I'm not claiming to be prescient. (Ah, if only!) Instead, I'm simply pointing out that all of that school practice helped make it possible for me--for all of us--to write in genres that didn't yet exist when the practice was still underway. I studied film, as well, and that clearly plays a big role in my case, too. None of us who are writing in these spaces now came to them tabula rasa, even though the spaces as genres were new to us. We brought with us all that we had already begun to learn about composition. Something, it seems, transferred (to invoke an early discussion) or otherwise came along for the ride. I can't imagine why we would suppose that early play or work with modes, with FPTs, with parsing, with paragraphs (remember paragraph exercises, way back when?), etc. wouldn't be part of this process of recombination and adaptation or whatever we're calling it. Soooooo. Just throwing out there the possibility that training in specific modes--so that we're preparing students, as Doug said earlier, for "the actual genres they are likely to be writing next semester, or a few months after they graduate"--is 1) tough, since we aren't very likely to know what those are going to be, especially beyond school, and 2) perhaps not as crucial as practice in critical thinking, composition moves and habits of mind, or whatever we're going to call these skills. (What *should* we call them? "Skills" is possibly not even the right word, there. Strategies, maybe. Understood as strategies that can ultimately be combined and adapted, the modes are certainly useful.) Practice is always something other than the thing being practiced for, and that seems fine to me. Kathy --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition End of Teaching_Composition Digest From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Tue Nov 13 16:46:32 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Chris Anson) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 11:46:32 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] NEW MODULE Message-ID: --Apple-Mail-73--230655922 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable A couple of decades ago, I visited a Native American university on a =20 reservation in South Dakota. I was there to work with the faculty on =20 matters relating to teaching, and our discussions were prompted=97and =20= turned around=97a series of narratives about problems in the classroom. =20= Having used some of the narratives before in similar sessions on other =20= campuses, I was struck by how a certain ethos, an institutional =20 culture, shaped the compassionate responses of the faculty, and by how =20= all sorts of interesting contingencies=97the who, the where and why=97wove= =20 through our explorations of the issues raised in the narratives, far =20 more that the usual race to pragmatic solutions. During the lunch =20 break, I explored my felt sense a little with a table of faculty, =20 learning more about the unique mission of the institution, its =20 history, and the philosophies that guided its approaches to teaching. =20= An elder who had given a long invocation at the start of the day in =20 Lakota explained. "Most colleges and universities teach to the brain," =20= he said. "Everything is focused on the head, on logic and knowledge." =20= He talked about what it means to teach also to the heart and spirit, =20 to parts of persons beyond the electrochemical processes of neurons =20 firing across synaptic gaps. Although it was the heyday of cognition =20 in writing, I'd read scholarly material on educating "whole persons" =20 and on the role of bodies in learning=97Parker Palmer and teaching the =20= spirit, bell hooks and engaged learning, even Janet Emig's nod to =20 hand, eye, and brain. But nothing before had so meaningfully shattered =20= the sheer "mentality" of writing for me. Driving back along the remote =20= roads toward the Sioux Falls airport, I realized that only by being =20 there in this welcoming community, imagining and re-imagining =20 narratives of our teaching selves, giving and receiving gifts, sharing =20= and embodying identities that offered alternatives to brain-focused =20 pedagogies, could I have experienced this new perspective. In this month's module, and in the context of much more insight and =20 recent work on these issues, Kristie Fleckenstein focuses on the role =20= of imagery, emotions, and bodies in writing and literacy development. =20= Based on Drucilla Cornell's idea that "three criteria are necessary =20 for the development of personhood: bodily integrity, access to =20 multiple symbol systems, and protecting the imaginary domain," Kristie =20= asks us to consider the role of each dimension in the writing =20 classroom, especially the imaginary domain, which itself includes "the =20= joint auspices of imagery, emotions, and bodies." Please read =20 Kristie's module, which contains helpful links to other information =20 and supporting sites, at the TC Web site: = http://www.mhhe.com/socscience/english/tc/=20 Then come back to this list to talk. Kristie Fleckenstein is an associate professor of English at Florida =20 State University where she teaches undergraduate and graduate courses =20= in rhetoric and composition. She taught high school (9 years) and =20 community college (3 years) before returning to graduate school to =20 work on a doctorate in rhetoric and composition; she continues to be =20 interested in the challenges and rewards of teaching English for =20 different student populations. Her research interests have focused on =20= the intersections of imagery, emotions, and bodies in literacy. Her =20 most recent work is a co-edited anthology (with Sue Hum and Linda T. =20 Calendrillo), Ways of Seeing, Ways of Speaking: The Integration of =20 Rhetoric and Vision in Constructing the Real (Parlor Press, 2007). =20 She is the author of Embodied Literacies: Imageword and a Poetics of =20 Teaching (Southern Illinois University P, 2003), winner of the 2005 =20 Conference on College Composition and Communication Outstanding Book =20 of the Year Award, as well as articles published in a variety of =20 journals. She has recently completed Visual Habits and Social Action: =20= The Possibility of Hope, a book project currently under review. =20 Finally, she is co-editor (with Linda T. Calendrillo) of JAEPL: =20 Journal of the Assemble for Expanded Perspectives on Learning. Many thanks to Ed Jones for last month's interesting and helpful =20 module on online directed self-placement. Because of some personnel =20 turnover in Web support at M-H, it was not possible to provide easy =20 links to the sample programs in Ed's module, but I'm told that this =20 will be fixed in the archived version. Chris Anson, Moderator --=20 Chris M. Anson [Web site] University Distinguished Professor Director, Campus Writing & Speaking Program Box 8105, North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC 27695-8105 (919) 513-4080 --Apple-Mail-73--230655922 Content-Type: text/html; charset=WINDOWS-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
A couple of decades ago, I visited a Native = American university on a reservation in South Dakota. I was there to work with = the faculty on matters relating to teaching, and our discussions were = prompted=97and turned around=97a series of narratives about problems in the classroom. = Having used some of the narratives before in similar sessions on other = campuses, I was struck by how a certain ethos, an institutional culture, shaped the compassionate = responses of the faculty, and by how all sorts of interesting contingencies=97the = who, the where and why=97wove through our explorations of the issues raised in = the narratives, far more that the usual race to pragmatic solutions. During = the lunch break, I explored my felt sense a little with a table of faculty, learning more about the unique mission of the institution, its history, = and the philosophies that guided its approaches to teaching. An elder who had = given a long invocation at the start of the day in Lakota explained. "Most colleges and universities teach to the brain," he said. "Everything is focused on the head, on logic and knowledge." He talked about what it means to teach also to the heart and spirit, to parts of persons beyond = the electrochemical processes of neurons firing across synaptic gaps. = Although it was the heyday of cognition in writing, I'd read scholarly material on = educating "whole persons" and on the role of bodies in learning=97Parker Palmer and teaching the spirit, bell hooks and engaged learning, even Janet = Emig's nod to hand, eye, and brain. But nothing before had so meaningfully = shattered the sheer "mentality" of writing for me. Driving back along the remote roads toward the Sioux Falls airport, I realized that only by being = there in this welcoming community, imagining and re-imagining narratives of our = teaching selves, giving and receiving gifts, sharing and embodying identities = that offered alternatives to brain-focused pedagogies, could I have = experienced this new perspective.
 
In this month's module, and in the context of = much more insight and recent work on these issues, Kristie Fleckenstein focuses on = the role of imagery, emotions, and bodies in writing and literacy = development. Based on Drucilla Cornell's idea that "three criteria are necessary for the development of personhood: bodily integrity, access to multiple = symbol systems, and protecting the imaginary domain," Kristie asks us to = consider the role of each dimension in the writing classroom, especially the = imaginary domain, which itself includes "the joint auspices of imagery, emotions, and bodies." Please read Kristie's module, which contains helpful links = to other information and supporting sites, at the TC Web site: http://www.mhhe.com/so= cscience/english/tc/  = Then come back to this list to talk.
 
Kristie Fleckenstein is an associate professor = of English at Florida State University where she teaches undergraduate and graduate = courses in rhetoric and composition. She taught high school (9 years) and = community college (3 years) before returning to graduate school to work on a = doctorate in rhetoric and composition; she continues to be interested in the = challenges and rewards of teaching English for different student populations.  Her research interests have = focused on the intersections of imagery, emotions, and bodies in literacy. Her most = recent work is a co-edited anthology (with Sue Hum and Linda T. Calendrillo), = Ways of Seeing, Ways of Speaking: The Integration of Rhetoric and Vision in Constructing the Real (Parlor = Press, 2007).  She is the author = of Embodied Literacies: Imageword and a Poetics of Teaching (Southern Illinois University P, 2003), = winner of the 2005 Conference on College Composition and Communication Outstanding Book of the Year = Award, as well as articles published in a variety of journals. She has recently = completed Visual Habits and Social Action: The Possibility of = Hope, a book project currently = under review.  Finally, = she is co-editor (with Linda T. Calendrillo) of JAEPL: Journal of the Assemble for Expanded Perspectives on Learning. =
 
Many thanks to Ed Jones for last month's = interesting and helpful module on online directed self-placement. Because of some = personnel turnover in Web support at M-H, it was not possible to provide easy = links to the sample programs in Ed's module, but I'm told that this will be fixed = in the archived version.
 
Chris Anson, Moderator



[Web = site]
University Distinguished = Professor
Director, Campus Writing = & Speaking Program
Box 8105, North = Carolina State University 
Raleigh, NC  = 27695-8105 
(919) 513-4080


=
= --Apple-Mail-73--230655922-- From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Tue Nov 13 21:18:41 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Stephen Ruffus) Date: Tue, 13 Nov 2007 14:18:41 -0700 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] NEW MODULE In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <35672B387D710B40B974BA1671413E894CD86B@SLCCEX.SLCC.int> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8263A.C44C6524 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General = Education committee at my school proposed that courses satisfying the college's diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more about how students negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital environments. It seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. =20 ________________________________ From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of Chris Anson Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 9:47 AM To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] NEW MODULE =20 A couple of decades ago, I visited a Native American university on a reservation in South Dakota. I was there to work with the faculty on matters relating to teaching, and our discussions were prompted-and = turned around-a series of narratives about problems in the classroom. Having = used some of the narratives before in similar sessions on other campuses, I = was struck by how a certain ethos, an institutional culture, shaped the compassionate responses of the faculty, and by how all sorts of = interesting contingencies-the who, the where and why-wove through our explorations = of the issues raised in the narratives, far more that the usual race to pragmatic solutions. During the lunch break, I explored my felt sense a little with a table of faculty, learning more about the unique mission = of the institution, its history, and the philosophies that guided its approaches to teaching. An elder who had given a long invocation at the start of the day in Lakota explained. "Most colleges and universities = teach to the brain," he said. "Everything is focused on the head, on logic and knowledge." He talked about what it means to teach also to the heart and spirit, to parts of persons beyond the electrochemical processes of = neurons firing across synaptic gaps. Although it was the heyday of cognition in writing, I'd read scholarly material on educating "whole persons" and on the role of bodies in learning-Parker Palmer and teaching the spirit, = bell hooks and engaged learning, even Janet Emig's nod to hand, eye, and = brain. But nothing before had so meaningfully shattered the sheer "mentality" = of writing for me. Driving back along the remote roads toward the Sioux = Falls airport, I realized that only by being there in this welcoming = community, imagining and re-imagining narratives of our teaching selves, giving and receiving gifts, sharing and embodying identities that offered = alternatives to brain-focused pedagogies, could I have experienced this new = perspective. =20 In this month's module, and in the context of much more insight and = recent work on these issues, Kristie Fleckenstein focuses on the role of = imagery, emotions, and bodies in writing and literacy development. Based on = Drucilla Cornell's idea that "three criteria are necessary for the development of personhood: bodily integrity, access to multiple symbol systems, and protecting the imaginary domain," Kristie asks us to consider the role = of each dimension in the writing classroom, especially the imaginary = domain, which itself includes "the joint auspices of imagery, emotions, and bodies." Please read Kristie's module, which contains helpful links to other information and supporting sites, at the TC Web site: http://www.mhhe.com/socscience/english/tc/ Then come back to this list = to talk. =20 Kristie Fleckenstein is an associate professor of English at Florida = State University where she teaches undergraduate and graduate courses in = rhetoric and composition. She taught high school (9 years) and community college = (3 years) before returning to graduate school to work on a doctorate in rhetoric and composition; she continues to be interested in the = challenges and rewards of teaching English for different student populations. Her research interests have focused on the intersections of imagery, = emotions, and bodies in literacy. Her most recent work is a co-edited anthology = (with Sue Hum and Linda T. Calendrillo), Ways of Seeing, Ways of Speaking: The Integration of Rhetoric and Vision in Constructing the Real (Parlor = Press, 2007). She is the author of Embodied Literacies: Imageword and a = Poetics of Teaching (Southern Illinois University P, 2003), winner of the 2005 Conference on College Composition and Communication Outstanding Book of = the Year Award, as well as articles published in a variety of journals. She = has recently completed Visual Habits and Social Action: The Possibility of Hope, a book project currently under review. Finally, she is co-editor (with Linda T. Calendrillo) of JAEPL: Journal of the Assemble for = Expanded Perspectives on Learning.=20 =20 Many thanks to Ed Jones for last month's interesting and helpful module = on online directed self-placement. Because of some personnel turnover in = Web support at M-H, it was not possible to provide easy links to the sample programs in Ed's module, but I'm told that this will be fixed in the archived version. =20 Chris Anson, Moderator =20 =20 =20 --=20 Chris M. Anson [Web site] =20 University Distinguished Professor Director, Campus Writing & Speaking Program =20 Box 8105, North Carolina State University=20 Raleigh, NC 27695-8105=20 (919) 513-4080 =20 =20 ------_=_NextPart_001_01C8263A.C44C6524 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kristie’s post brings = something to mind.  Recently, the General Education committee at my school = proposed that courses satisfying the college’s diversity requirement not be = taught online until we knew more about how students negotiate racial and ethnic = identities in digital environments.  It seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked.

 


From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com = [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of Chris = Anson
Sent: Tuesday, November = 13, 2007 9:47 AM
To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
Subject: = [Teaching_Composition] NEW MODULE

 

A couple of decades ago, I visited a Native American university = on a reservation in South = Dakota. I was there to work with the faculty on matters relating to teaching, = and our discussions were prompted—and turned around—a series of = narratives about problems in the classroom. Having used some of the narratives = before in similar sessions on other campuses, I was struck by how a certain ethos, = an institutional culture, shaped the compassionate responses of the = faculty, and by how all sorts of interesting contingencies—the who, the where = and why—wove through our explorations of the issues raised in the = narratives, far more that the usual race to pragmatic solutions. During the lunch = break, I explored my felt sense a little with a table of faculty, learning more = about the unique mission of the institution, its history, and the philosophies = that guided its approaches to teaching. An elder who had given a long = invocation at the start of the day in Lakota explained. "Most colleges and = universities teach to the brain," he said. "Everything is focused on the = head, on logic and knowledge." He talked about what it means to teach also = to the heart and spirit, to parts of persons beyond the electrochemical = processes of neurons firing across synaptic gaps. Although it was the heyday of = cognition in writing, I'd read scholarly material on educating "whole = persons" and on the role of bodies in learning—Parker Palmer and teaching the = spirit, bell hooks and engaged learning, even Janet Emig's nod to hand, eye, and = brain. But nothing before had so meaningfully shattered the sheer "mentality" of writing for me. Driving back along the remote = roads toward the Sioux Falls airport, I realized that only by being there in = this welcoming community, imagining and re-imagining narratives of our = teaching selves, giving and receiving gifts, sharing and embodying identities = that offered alternatives to brain-focused pedagogies, could I have = experienced this new perspective.

 

In this month's module, and in the context of much more insight = and recent work on these issues, Kristie Fleckenstein focuses on the role of imagery, emotions, and bodies in writing and literacy development. Based = on Drucilla Cornell's idea that "three criteria are necessary for the development of personhood: bodily integrity, access to multiple symbol = systems, and protecting the imaginary domain," Kristie asks us to consider = the role of each dimension in the writing classroom, especially the imaginary = domain, which itself includes "the joint auspices of imagery, emotions, and bodies." Please read Kristie's module, which contains helpful links = to other information and supporting sites, at the TC Web site: http://www.mhhe.com/s= ocscience/english/tc/  Then come back to this list to talk.

 

Kristie Fleckenstein is an associate professor of English at = Florida = State University where she teaches undergraduate and graduate courses in rhetoric and composition. She taught high school (9 years) and community college (3 = years) before returning to graduate school to work on a doctorate in rhetoric = and composition; she continues to be interested in the challenges and = rewards of teaching English for different student populations.  Her research interests have focused on the intersections of imagery, emotions, and = bodies in literacy. Her most recent work is a co-edited anthology (with Sue Hum = and Linda T. Calendrillo), Ways of Seeing, = Ways of Speaking: The Integration of Rhetoric and Vision in Constructing the = Real (Parlor Press, 2007).  She is the author of Embodied Literacies: Imageword and a Poetics of = Teaching (Southern Illinois University P, 2003), winner of the 2005 Conference on College Composition and Communication Outstanding Book of the Year = Award, as well as articles published in a variety of journals. She has recently = completed Visual Habits and Social Action: = The Possibility of Hope, a book project currently under = review.  Finally, she is co-editor (with Linda T. Calendrillo) of JAEPL: Journal of the Assemble for Expanded Perspectives on Learning. =

 

Many thanks to Ed Jones for last month's interesting and helpful = module on online directed self-placement. Because of some personnel turnover in = Web support at M-H, it was not possible to provide easy links to the sample programs in Ed's module, but I'm told that this will be fixed in the = archived version.

 

Chris Anson, Moderator

 

 

 

-- 
Chris M. Anson [Web site]

=

University Distinguished Professor
Director, Campus Writing & Speaking = Program
Box 8105, North Carolina = State University 
Raleigh, = NC  27695-8105 
(919) 513-4080

 



 

------_=_NextPart_001_01C8263A.C44C6524-- From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Mon Nov 19 15:13:11 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Glenn Blalock) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 09:13:11 -0600 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] NEW: TESOL / ESL Bibliography/Webliography Message-ID: <001d01c82abe$b4ef8cd0$cc573e81@GlennBlalock> Kristine Hansen and Joe Janangelo are sharing their "Annotated Bibliography/Webliography of TESOL Materials for Writing Program Administrators." You will find it @ CompFAQs: http://comppile.tamucc.edu/wiki/TESOL-ESLResources/TESOLBibliography You can also access it from CompFAQs home page (follow the TESOL/ESL Resources category): http://comppile.tamucc.edu/wiki/CompFAQs/Home And if you lose these links, go to CompPile http://comppile.tamucc.edu/ and use TESOL or ESL as search terms. Their work is linked there, too. Thanks to Kristine and Joe for sharing this useful resource. If / as others want to add to this resource, you can edit the pages yourself or send me the information, and I'll add it. Glenn From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Mon Nov 19 23:35:51 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Kathy Fitch) Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2007 17:35:51 -0600 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Of Bodies Writing In-Reply-To: <35672B387D710B40B974BA1671413E894CD86B@SLCCEX.SLCC.int> Message-ID: <20071119233619.97D86758057@smtpauth00.csee.onr.siteprotect.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C82AD2.A1C2DC20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Kristie, I love your module. It's exciting, inviting, richly thought provoking, and comes at just the perfect time for me, and, I'm sure, for others, as well-if you love to write, it's always the perfect time to ponder poetry, which, for me, is what we get when the body, the realm of imagery, and symbol systems get all beautifully tangled up in one another. If you love to teach writing, then perhaps it's always urgent to keep some poetry in your bones. All of which is to say, the (long, now, sorry) meandering to follow is all your fault, and I thank you for the excuse to do it (not that I ever need too much of an excuse, mind you). --After reading your module, I started remembering. The very first semester that I taught as a grad TA, many of my friends, including my roommate of the year before, who was a Sophomore when I started teaching writing, were still undergraduates. It's strange to think of, now, since I've never been what a person might call conventionally attractive (by whatever definition is going at the moment-so far, none of them has seemed to have the likes of me in mind, though I suppose it could happen any minute, now), but, at that time, some of my students were apparently physically attracted to me. I typically dressed up a few notches for class, since I was aware enough of issues of appearance to understand that I looked pretty much exactly like my students as far as both age and general style went, and since I didn't have nearly enough natural or acquired authority at that point not to need any of the external trappings of it. I remember being nervous, of course, but soon we were focused on writing, and I rather forgot about my physical presence except for the general pleasure of moving about the class, talking, laughing, answering questions, asking them, listening, all of that. So, a few weeks into it, I was feeling pretty good about the whole thing. Then, I visited with my roommate of the year before. She knew some of my students-partied with them at frat houses, it seems-and passed along the news that several of them found me "hot." There were no ratemyprofessor services complete with chili pepper hotness scores back then, and I'm glad, because even though I understood that this was supposed to be a compliment, and this is clearly how my friend figured I'd take it, that bit of feedback made me feel weird. It was like I had been floating up on one of those silvery tethers, marvelously non body conscious, and then was suddenly, unceremoniously slammed right on back into my skin. It was a high gravity moment. I didn't like it. Already, then, and ever since, I simply never related to my students that way. Here were people whose intellectual wellbeing I was claiming some responsibility for: sexual flirtation wasn't a language it would ever have occurred to me to speak to them in. (I'd speak to them *of* it, if the subject came up in the course of things, but not *in* it, which is a whole separate deal.) --A number of years later, a Dean interviewing me privately for the final round of a tenure-track position noted my relative youth, and wondered how much of a role this might play in my student reviews. He was a great guy, really, but the clear implication was: you're young, and that's why students like you. Oh! I remember saying something about how if youth is a flaw, it's a fleeting one, and pointing out that attitude and approach can always be fresh, but this was another of those moments of feeling stuffed disconcertingly back into my skin. I did accept that position, and a full-time faculty retreat soon followed. Overnight at a downstate forest preserve. There were sessions, and singing, and drinking, and all sorts of mandatory chumminess. One new colleague saw fit to ask me, as I claimed tiredness and headed off to sleep, if I wore Frederick's of Hollywood lingerie to bed. Guess it was fun for him to think about what all lacy nothings I might have crammed into my rucksack, but, again-uncomfortably bound in my skin by the power of a single comment. Reduced to skin. That night, my roommate, who was an Acting teacher very near retirement, delighted me (and frightened me just a delicious little bit) by easily regressing to a three-year old homesick child right before my eyes: she nailed the voice, the movement, the air of the thing. I could practically see the air around her shimmer with magic as she did it. Here was skin as parchment, as costume, as malleable joy. More flinty and melting skin moments eventually followed: the colleague who had "heard all about" my lesbian adventures (and how the hell does a straight married woman who is doubly offended--by the narrow-mindedness, there, first of all, and by the fact that he actually apparently had another colleague and good friend in mind-- respond intelligently to that one?); the all male Teaching Center committee members, mostly twenty or more years older than me, who proposed setting me up in a kissing booth to generate funds; the miscarriage that had me missing a few sessions of still another committee, much to the chagrin of its chair, who finally backed off when, in a moment of frustration, I told the dean he sicced on me (and who was a great guy, and thus refused to sic, though he did discuss it with me) that I wasn't going to haul my body to thrice weekly meetings while blood was snaking down my inner thighs and didn't want to hear another word about it until I had this physical problem under control. Bloody female body as power and curse. It wasn't discussed again. --First year of grad school, while I was apparently busy being hot without knowing it or wanting to be, I lived in an old garden style apartment building. In the apartment just to the north of mine lived Lisa, who had been legally blind from birth. We met when she came to my door with a measuring cup in hand, seeking milk for something she was preparing. Now, I hope I'm not limiting her to her body when I observe that she was gorgeous. Long brown hair, skin the most beautiful color I'd ever seen, and the kind of lithe and willowy body that a lifelong dancer might have. We became friends. I learned all about the special computer she used to magnify books, listened to her boyfriend woes (he wasn't sure he wanted to marry a blind woman, but he wasn't thinking he wanted anyone else to have her, either), and discovered that she was loathe to use her cane while walking around campus. Never mind that she was practically killed by bikers, skaters, and general jostling several times a week. She didn't want the cane because it meant people would process her as "blind person," steer around her, and never engage with her on any other level. In the apartment just to south of me lived John, who had cerebral palsy. I learned to keep my apartment stocked with straws so I could offer him a drink when he came over, since drinking directly from a glass or can was tough for him. John couldn't leave the outward marks of CP at home, and it constantly frustrated him. Girls were a particular source of concern. Like Lisa, he was very generous with me. I'd never had close friends with disabilities before, and here, quite suddenly, I was flanked by them. They let me ask all sorts of questions. John and I had long discussions about the challenges of dating. He was a romantic-writing poetry, buying flowers, falling hard and fast. We wondered, together, about how his body complicated things. Coming on too strong? He figured he came on too strong for some women just by being. Just a year or so later, one of my own students, Barbara, was blind. No special viewing devices for her, since the blindness was total. Our whole class was somehow defined by her rhythms, which were assertive, but kind, and very comfortable (largely a magic of her making). The clicking of her slate and stylus became part of our world, we all learned (even "why would I touch you when I don't even *know* you?" me) to offer our arms with ease when it came time for Barb to navigate the busy halls of the English building, and workshop days meant we all read aloud to each other, so the hum was constant. Barb wrote the most beautiful, detailed visual descriptions. She always brought her slate and stylus to conference sessions, too, and took notes as we talked. All of these generous folks who let me learn from them how to be easy with them (and hard on them, and ticked at them, and just *with* them, generally) made it possible for me to be very comfortable with managing the challenges and joys of working with many later students who came bearing all sorts of bodily and emotional difference: blindness, CP, deafness, brain damage, epilepsy, depression, histories of abuse. --Suddenly, I'm remembering the bodies of teachers I loved. One very overweight lit prof never, ever moved from the desk. She'd hike herself onto that scarred old block of wood at the front of the classroom as the period began, and sit there the whole time. And yet, I have this impression of grace when I think of the way she moved around in text and in ideas, and I remember feeling breathless and exhilarated by keeping up with her. Then, there was the elfin film professor, very thin and short. He used to smoke and pace across the room-this little engine of energy, puffing away. And he'd fill the board with words and arrows and charts and drawings that marked and moved our discussion along. I could never sleep after his classes. They left me wired and wanting to read, write, talk, think *right now.* Oh, oh-and the high school English teacher, Mrs. B. She was all pleated wool skirts and cardigans, and she always had a line of chalk dust across her back, right where she leaned against the chalk tray when she was at the board. Very soft-spoken. When I think of her, now, it seems to me that her great and rare talent consisted mostly of setting us in motion and then getting out of the way. I remember just writing and writing and reading and reading and writing some more, for her, but I never remember feeling at all pressured about it. Her space was quiet and absorbing. --Then, too, the bodies of teachers I didn't love so much. The prim and prissy Shakespeare prof who drew a large and apparently perfect circle on the board on day one, then turned to us and told us that the ability to draw a perfect circle was the sign of a rare and prodigious intelligence was one teacher I instantly and irreversibly hated-even more so more because, of course, I couldn't resist trying the circle thing, and instantly discovering that without a compass, my circle making skills were iffy, at best. Then, there was the Econ prof who was simply boring. Somehow, I think beige and taupe when I think of him, though I can't really remember what he wore. I actually once got up, gathered my things, and walked out of that class and into the exhilarating spring sunshine (the sort of rudeness I hardly ever allow myself), simply because I couldn't take the monotone (and, apparently, the monochrome) drone of him for one more instant. Then, there was the Soc. Prof who was persnickety as can be. Very smart, kind of funny, but really not at all nice. I remember watching the cowlick at his crown bounce as he paced the room. ---Random grad school memory: Lit prof known for flirting outrageously (and sometimes, more) with female students. Creep. But, I had one friend with whom he never, ever flirted, and she was deeply bummed about this. I avoided his courses, so I was a bit at a loss. She *wanted* the creep to be creepy to her? Sigh. Yes. She wanted to know that she, too, was worthy of his creepiness. But she was not thin, not pretty in the way he was drawn to, and entirely (as I told her, again and again) too smart and too good and far too beautiful for him, anyway. I never read Blake without thinking of her. --Random teaching memories: The young women who approached me very solemnly at the end of class one day, asked me to raise my arm, withdrew a pair of manicure scissors from her purse, and proceeded very gently to cut the tag that was hanging there. New jacket. My little glow of pleasure about this new thing-I was feeling uncommonly happy about the color and the fabric and the feel of it-wasn't at all undone by the gesture. Not many people could have been that tenderly respectful. Another young woman who approached at the end of class one day to thump our book onto the desk, and declare "this book doesn't include me." And so it didn't. She explained why, and she was right. A young man who wore a tee shirts with drawings of serial killers on them to class, who wanted to shake some reaction out of his classmates in this manner, and who did. Interesting negotiations had to go on to prevent that one from blowing up. Another young man who wore lots of black eye makeup, lots of black clothing, lots of dangly earrings, and who was very quiet, very sensitive, a poet really. When I mentioned, one day, how talented I thought he was, he said that it wasn't until college that teachers ever said this wondrous thing to him or about him. Before that, he felt that he was always pretty immediately sized up and put into the trouble category. Oh, and so many more lessons delivered skillfully from smart students to a teacher who learned from them that's it's best to remember that there's always something new to learn about how to be a good teacher to them. --Hmm, and then I was thinking, all in response to this module, of how very different various sections of the same course can be. One semester, there were two research writing courses. One group was pretty quiet, very workmanlike, not that into conversation or debate, but very solemnly absorbed. They consistently handed in amazing work, and basically kicked butt all the way. They were a pleasure, all around. Another group was challenging, raucous at times, questioned every little thing, and cracked me up on a regular basis. Their writing, on the whole, wasn't quite as good-collectively, they had further to go--but the engagement level was very high. I would sometimes look at them in mock indignation and declare that I was lucky I could ever get a darned word in edgewise, with them. Lots of the students in this section were on their second or third time through the course. We decided, right off, that this would simply have to be it: they'd make it even if it killed them-or me-and we allowed as to how it just might hurt a little bit, at times, but we'd just go on ahead and do it together, anyway, and be glad of the chance to. Most of them (not all, but most) really did pass. Toward the end, they kicked me out of the room during the last ten or fifteen minutes of class, one day. That had never happened before, but there it was: "Mrs. Fitch, you have to leave now. We need to talk without you. Shoo." So, I left, wondering what they were plotting. Might have been anything from a mutiny to a party, with that group. Turned out, they were plotting flowers. A huge bouquet for me on the first day of the last week. They had pooled their money, and also pooled their garden resources. There were hothouse flowers, wildflowers, and heavy branches of blossoms cut from trees and shrubs in their yards (and maybe their neighbors yards, too). It was a huge and crazy bouquet-and exactly the sort of composition that best reflected their spirit. I loved it, and them. Oh, and there's so much more: the athleticism of teaching, especially in a computer lab setting; the maturing of both body and spirit over time, and how this impacts teaching; the various languages (Spanish, Vietnamese, Russian, and countless others, plus ASL, gang signs, slang, tattoos, costume, hair) students bring to the project of writing and learning with them; the language of fear and frustration in the classroom, as it plays out on every level; the cultural differences when it comes to virtually everything, including how marriage, family, and success (all things that matter for the project of learning) get defined. Well, no big insight to offer, but many seemingly disparate things to ponder and to continue to draw together, and for that I thank you. Kathy _____ From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of Stephen Ruffus Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:19 PM To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] NEW MODULE Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General Education committee at my school proposed that courses satisfying the college's diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more about how students negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital environments. It seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C82AD2.A1C2DC20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Kristie,

 

I love your module.  = It’s exciting, inviting, richly thought provoking, and comes at just the = perfect time for me, and, I’m sure, for others, as well—if you love = to write, it’s always the perfect time to ponder poetry, which, for = me, is what we get when the body, the realm of imagery, and symbol systems get = all beautifully tangled up in one another.  If you love to teach = writing, then perhaps it’s always urgent to keep some poetry in your = bones.  All of which is to say, the (long, now, sorry) meandering to follow is all = your fault, and I thank you for the excuse to do it (not that I ever need too = much of an excuse, mind you).

 

--After reading your module, I = started remembering.  The very first semester that I taught as a grad TA, = many of my friends, including my roommate of the year before, who was a = Sophomore when I started teaching writing, were still undergraduates.  It’s = strange to think of, now, since I’ve never been what a person might call = conventionally attractive (by whatever definition is going at the moment—so far, = none of them has seemed to have the likes of me in mind, though I suppose it = could happen any minute, now), but, at that time, some of my students were = apparently physically attracted to me.  I typically dressed up a few notches = for class, since I was aware enough of issues of appearance to understand = that I looked pretty much exactly like my students as far as both age and = general style went, and since I didn’t have nearly enough natural or = acquired authority at that point not to need any of the external trappings of = it.  I remember being nervous, of course, but soon we were focused on = writing, and I rather forgot about my physical presence except for the general pleasure = of moving about the class, talking, laughing, answering questions, asking = them, listening, all of that.  So, a few weeks into it, I was feeling = pretty good about the whole thing.  Then, I visited with my roommate of = the year before.  She knew some of my students—partied with them at = frat houses, it seems—and passed along the news that several of them = found me “hot.”  There were no ratemyprofessor services complete = with chili pepper hotness scores back then, and I’m glad, because even = though I understood that this was supposed to be a compliment, and this is = clearly how my friend figured I’d take it, that bit of feedback made me feel weird.  It was like I had been floating up on one of those silvery tethers, marvelously non body conscious, and then was suddenly, = unceremoniously slammed right on back into my skin.  It was a high gravity = moment.  I didn’t like it.  Already, then, and ever since, I simply = never related to my students that way.  Here were people whose = intellectual wellbeing I was claiming some responsibility for:  sexual = flirtation wasn’t a language it would ever have occurred to me to speak to = them in.  (I’d speak to them *of* it, if the subject came up in the course of things, but not *in* it, which is a whole separate deal.)  

 

--A number of years later, a Dean interviewing me privately for the final round of a tenure-track position = noted my relative youth, and wondered how much of a role this might play in my student reviews.  He was a great guy, really, but the clear = implication was:  you’re young, and that’s why students like = you.  Oh!  I remember saying something about how if youth is a flaw, = it’s a fleeting one, and pointing out that attitude and approach can always = be fresh, but this was another of those moments of feeling stuffed = disconcertingly back into my skin.  I did accept that position, and a full-time = faculty retreat soon followed.  Overnight at a downstate forest = preserve.  There were sessions, and singing, and drinking, and all sorts of = mandatory chumminess.  One new colleague saw fit to ask me, as I claimed = tiredness and headed off to sleep, if I wore Frederick’s of Hollywood = lingerie to bed.  Guess it was fun for him to think about what all lacy = nothings I might have crammed into my rucksack, but, again—uncomfortably = bound in my skin by the power of a single comment.  Reduced to skin.  That = night, my roommate, who was an Acting teacher very near retirement, delighted = me (and frightened me just a delicious little bit) by easily regressing to a = three-year old homesick child right before my eyes:  she nailed the voice, the = movement, the air of the thing.  I could practically see the air around her = shimmer with magic as she did it.  Here was skin as parchment, as costume, = as malleable joy.  More flinty and melting skin moments eventually followed:  the colleague who had “heard all about” my = lesbian adventures (and how the hell does a straight married woman who is doubly offended--by the narrow-mindedness, there, first of all, and by the fact = that he actually apparently had another colleague and good friend in mind-- = respond intelligently to that one?); the all male Teaching Center committee = members, mostly twenty or more years older than me,  who proposed setting me = up in a kissing booth to generate funds; the miscarriage that had me missing a = few sessions of still another committee, much to the chagrin of its chair, = who finally backed off when, in a moment of frustration, I told the dean he = sicced on me (and who was a great guy, and thus refused to sic, though he did = discuss it with me) that I wasn’t going to haul my body to thrice weekly = meetings while blood was snaking down my inner thighs and didn’t want to = hear another word about it until I had this physical problem under = control.  Bloody female body as power and curse.  It wasn’t discussed = again.

 

--First year of grad school, while = I was apparently busy being hot without knowing it or wanting to be, I lived = in an old garden style apartment building.  In the apartment just to the = north of mine lived Lisa, who had been legally blind from birth.  We met = when she came to my door with a measuring cup in hand, seeking milk for = something she was preparing.  Now, I hope I’m not limiting her to her = body when I observe that she was gorgeous. Long brown hair, skin the most = beautiful color I’d ever seen, and the kind of lithe and willowy body that a lifelong dancer might have.  We became friends.  I learned all = about the special computer she used to magnify books, listened to her = boyfriend woes (he wasn’t sure he wanted to marry a blind woman, but he = wasn’t thinking he wanted anyone else to have her, either), and discovered that = she was loathe to use her cane while walking around campus.  Never mind = that she was practically killed by bikers, skaters, and general jostling = several times a week.  She didn’t want the cane because it meant = people would process her as “blind person,” steer around her, and = never engage with her on any other level.  In the apartment just to south = of me lived John, who had cerebral palsy.  I learned to keep my apartment stocked with straws so I could offer him a drink when he came over, = since drinking directly from a glass or can was tough for him.  John couldn’t leave the outward marks of CP at home, and it constantly frustrated him.  Girls were a particular source of concern.  = Like Lisa, he was very generous with me.  I’d never had close = friends with disabilities before, and here, quite suddenly, I was flanked by them.  They let me ask all sorts of questions.  John and I had = long discussions about the challenges of dating.  He was a romantic—writing poetry, buying flowers, falling hard and = fast.  We wondered, together, about how his body complicated things.  Coming = on too strong?  He figured he came on too strong for some women just by being.  Just a year or so later, one of my own students, = Barbara,  was blind.  No special viewing devices for her, since the blindness = was total.  Our whole class was somehow defined by her rhythms, which = were assertive, but kind, and very comfortable (largely a magic of her = making).   The clicking of her slate and stylus became part of our world, we all = learned (even “why would I touch you when I don’t even *know* you?” me) to offer our = arms with ease when it came time for Barb to navigate the busy halls of the = English building, and workshop days meant we all read aloud to each other, so = the hum was constant.  Barb wrote the most beautiful, detailed visual descriptions.  She always brought her slate and stylus to = conference sessions, too, and took notes as we talked.  All of these generous = folks who let me learn from them how to be easy with them (and hard on them, = and ticked at them, and just *with* them, generally) made it possible for me to be very comfortable with = managing the challenges and joys of working with many later students who came = bearing all sorts of bodily and emotional difference:  blindness, CP, deafness, = brain damage, epilepsy, depression, histories of = abuse.

 

--Suddenly, I’m remembering = the bodies of teachers I loved.  One very overweight lit prof never, = ever moved from the desk.  She’d hike herself onto that scarred = old block of wood at the front of the classroom as the period began, and sit there = the whole time.  And yet, I have this impression of grace when I think = of the way she moved around in text and in ideas, and I remember feeling = breathless and exhilarated by keeping up with her.    Then, there = was the elfin film professor, very thin and short.  He used to smoke and = pace across the room—this little engine of energy, puffing away.  = And he’d fill the board with words and arrows and charts and drawings = that marked and moved our discussion along.  I could never sleep after = his classes.  They left me wired and wanting to read, write, talk, = think *right now.*  Oh, oh—and = the high school English teacher, Mrs. B.  She was all pleated wool skirts = and cardigans, and she always had a line of chalk dust across her back, = right where she leaned against the chalk tray when she was at the board.  Very soft-spoken.  When I think of her, now, it seems to me that her = great and rare talent consisted mostly of setting us in motion and then getting = out of the way.  I remember just writing and writing and reading and = reading and writing some more, for her, but I never remember feeling at all = pressured about it.  Her space was quiet and absorbing.  =

 

--Then, too,  the bodies of = teachers I didn’t love so much.  The prim and prissy Shakespeare prof = who drew a large and apparently perfect circle on the board on day one, then = turned to us and told us that the ability to draw a perfect circle was the sign = of a rare and prodigious intelligence was one teacher I instantly and irreversibly hated—even more so more because, of course, I couldn’t = resist trying the circle thing, and instantly discovering that without a = compass, my circle making skills were iffy, at best.  Then, there was the Econ = prof who was simply boring.  Somehow, I think beige and taupe when I = think of him, though I can’t really remember what he wore.  I actually = once got up, gathered my things, and walked out of that class and into the = exhilarating spring sunshine (the sort of rudeness I hardly ever allow myself), = simply because I couldn’t take the monotone (and, apparently, the = monochrome) drone of him for one more instant.  Then, there was the Soc. = Prof  who was persnickety as can be.  Very smart, kind of funny, but = really not at all nice.  I remember watching the cowlick at his crown bounce = as he paced the room. 

 

---Random grad school memory:  = Lit prof known for flirting outrageously (and sometimes, more) with female students.  Creep.  But, I had one friend with whom he never, = ever flirted, and she was deeply bummed about this.  I avoided his = courses, so I was a bit at a loss.  She *wanted* the creep to be creepy to her?  Sigh. Yes.  She wanted to know = that she, too, was worthy of his creepiness.  But she was not thin, not = pretty in the way he was drawn to, and entirely (as I told her, again and = again) too smart and too good and far too beautiful for him, anyway.  I never = read Blake without thinking of her.

 

--Random teaching memories:  = The young women who approached me very solemnly at the end of class one day, = asked me to raise my arm, withdrew a pair of manicure scissors from her purse, = and proceeded very gently to cut the tag that was hanging there.  New jacket.  My little glow of pleasure about this new thing—I = was feeling uncommonly happy about the color and the fabric and the feel of it—wasn’t at all undone by the gesture.  Not many = people could have been that tenderly respectful.   Another young woman who approached at the end of class one day to thump our book onto the desk, = and declare “this book doesn’t include me.”  And so = it didn’t.  She explained why, and she was right.  A young = man who wore a tee shirts with drawings of serial killers on them to class, who = wanted to shake some reaction out of his classmates in this manner, and who = did.  Interesting negotiations had to go on to prevent that one from blowing up.  Another young man who wore lots of black eye makeup, lots of = black clothing, lots of dangly earrings, and who was very quiet, very = sensitive, a poet really.  When I mentioned, one day, how talented I thought he = was, he said that it wasn’t until college that teachers ever said this = wondrous thing to him or about him.  Before that, he felt that he was always = pretty immediately sized up and put into the trouble category.  Oh, and so = many more lessons delivered skillfully from smart students to a teacher who = learned from them that’s it’s best to remember that there’s = always something new to learn about how to be a good teacher to = them.

 

--Hmm, and then I was thinking, all = in response to this module, of how very different various sections of the = same course can be.  One semester, there were two research writing courses.  One group was pretty quiet, very workmanlike, not that = into conversation or debate, but very solemnly absorbed.  They = consistently handed in amazing work, and basically kicked butt all the way.  = They were a pleasure, all around.  Another group was challenging, raucous at = times, questioned every little thing, and cracked me up on a regular = basis.  Their writing, on the whole, wasn’t quite as good—collectively, = they had further to go--but the engagement level was very high.  I would = sometimes look at them in mock indignation and declare that I was lucky I could = ever get a darned word in edgewise, with them.  Lots of the students in this section were on their second or third time through the course.  We decided, right off, that this would simply have to be it:  = they’d make it even if it killed them—or me—and we allowed as to = how it just might hurt a little bit, at times, but we’d just go on ahead = and do it together, anyway, and be glad of the chance to.  Most of them = (not all, but most) really did pass.  Toward the end, they kicked me out of = the room during the last ten or fifteen minutes of class, one day.  That had = never happened before, but there it was:  “Mrs. Fitch, you have to = leave now.  We need to talk without you. Shoo.”  So, I left, wondering what they were plotting.  Might have been anything from a = mutiny to a party, with that group.  Turned out, they were plotting flowers.  A huge bouquet for me on the first day of the last = week.  They had pooled their money, and also pooled their garden = resources.  There were hothouse flowers, wildflowers, and heavy branches of blossoms = cut from trees and shrubs in their yards (and maybe their neighbors yards, too).  It was a huge and crazy bouquet—and exactly the sort = of composition that best reflected their spirit.  I loved it, and = them.

 

Oh, and there’s so much = more:  the athleticism of teaching, especially in a computer lab setting; the = maturing of both body and spirit over time, and how this impacts teaching; the = various languages (Spanish, Vietnamese, Russian, and countless others, plus ASL, = gang signs, slang, tattoos, costume, hair) students bring to the project of = writing and learning with them; the language of fear and frustration in the = classroom, as it plays out on every level; the cultural differences when it comes to virtually everything, including how marriage, family, and success (all = things that matter for the project of learning) get = defined.

 

Well, no big insight to offer, but = many seemingly disparate things to ponder and to continue to draw together, = and for that I thank you.

 

Kathy

 

 

 

 

 


From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com = [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of Stephen = Ruffus
Sent: Tuesday, November = 13, 2007 3:19 PM
To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] NEW MODULE

 

Kristie’s post brings = something to mind.  Recently, the General Education committee at my school = proposed that courses satisfying the college’s diversity requirement not be = taught online until we knew more about how students negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital environments.  It seemed to me a basic = question about embodiment was being asked.

 

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C82AD2.A1C2DC20-- From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Sun Nov 25 21:43:31 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Kristie Fleckenstein) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:43:31 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Of Bodies Writing In-Reply-To: <20071119233619.97D86758057@smtpauth00.csee.onr.siteprotect.com> References: <35672B387D710B40B974BA1671413E894CD86B@SLCCEX.SLCC.int> <20071119233619.97D86758057@smtpauth00.csee.onr.siteprotect.com> Message-ID: Oh, my gosh, Kathy, your post brought back so many of my own memories in and out of the classroom. I started teaching high school right out of college when I was 22…only 4 to 5 years older than the students I was teaching. Yikes! When I got my first journal from a student describing how he’d love to meet me for pizza some weekend, I was more than a little uneasy and a lot flustered. (I suppose I should have been happy he didn't ask me to bring the beer!) Nothing in my undergrad ed classes (in the early 70s) had prepared me for something like that. As a former WPA, I spent time dealing with such issues in TA training, but I know that we don't have a lot of attention paid to embodiment in essay collections designed for TA training. Lots of essays on what they (TAs) need to know, which is definitely important. But essays on body concerns tend to be in short supply, and I think that "corporeal" preparation is just as important as course content. So what's going on in secondary ed training? I’ve been out of the secondary ed loop for too many years to know if issues of embodiment are addressed in our undergraduate methods courses. Or perhaps "embodiment" is bundled in with discussions of harassment? Can others on the list help us out here? Does UG teacher training clases deal with body issues? And your memories, Kathy, reminded me of Steve’s post, too, because I can’t help but wonder, especially as I watch my older daughter develop a rich, complex network of online friendships (including at one time, I suspect, a romantic connection) if the We 2.0 generation is developing not only different modes of communication but also different senses of their bodies. Does the Web 2.0 generation have a more flexible understanding of bodies than does the typographic generation? If so, flexible how? And what are the implications of those differences? Oddly enough, those questions make my mind jump to NCLB. Do we have in high stakes testing a complete denial of bodies? And, if we shape curriculum to align with high stakes testing, are we systematically denying the reality of bodies in our K through postsecondary classrooms? How does interact with the Web 2.0 experiences? Does it widen the gulf between "real" life and "school" life? "real" literacies and "school" literacies? I can't help but wonder what would happen if we looked at some of the issues plaguing education, K through postsecondary, through the lens of embodiment. Might we find new ways of looking at nagging problems and perhaps coming up with some novels solutions to those problems? I'd like to think so. Kris ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathy Fitch Date: Monday, November 19, 2007 6:44 pm Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] Of Bodies Writing To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > Kristie, > > > > I love your module. It's exciting, inviting, richly thought > provoking, and > comes at just the perfect time for me, and, I'm sure, for others, > as well-if > you love to write, it's always the perfect time to ponder poetry, > which, for > me, is what we get when the body, the realm of imagery, and symbol > systemsget all beautifully tangled up in one another. If you love > to teach > writing, then perhaps it's always urgent to keep some poetry in > your bones. > All of which is to say, the (long, now, sorry) meandering to follow > is all > your fault, and I thank you for the excuse to do it (not that I > ever need > too much of an excuse, mind you). > > > > --After reading your module, I started remembering. The very first > semesterthat I taught as a grad TA, many of my friends, including > my roommate of the > year before, who was a Sophomore when I started teaching writing, > were still > undergraduates. It's strange to think of, now, since I've never > been what a > person might call conventionally attractive (by whatever definition > is going > at the moment-so far, none of them has seemed to have the likes of > me in > mind, though I suppose it could happen any minute, now), but, at > that time, > some of my students were apparently physically attracted to me. I > typicallydressed up a few notches for class, since I was aware > enough of issues of > appearance to understand that I looked pretty much exactly like my > studentsas far as both age and general style went, and since I > didn't have nearly > enough natural or acquired authority at that point not to need any > of the > external trappings of it. I remember being nervous, of course, but > soon we > were focused on writing, and I rather forgot about my physical > presenceexcept for the general pleasure of moving about the class, > talking,laughing, answering questions, asking them, listening, all > of that. So, a > few weeks into it, I was feeling pretty good about the whole thing. > Then, I > visited with my roommate of the year before. She knew some of my > students-partied with them at frat houses, it seems-and passed > along the > news that several of them found me "hot." There were no > ratemyprofessorservices complete with chili pepper hotness scores > back then, and I'm glad, > because even though I understood that this was supposed to be a > compliment,and this is clearly how my friend figured I'd take it, > that bit of feedback > made me feel weird. It was like I had been floating up on one of > thosesilvery tethers, marvelously non body conscious, and then was > suddenly,unceremoniously slammed right on back into my skin. It > was a high gravity > moment. I didn't like it. Already, then, and ever since, I simply > neverrelated to my students that way. Here were people whose > intellectualwellbeing I was claiming some responsibility for: > sexual flirtation wasn't > a language it would ever have occurred to me to speak to them in. > (I'dspeak to them *of* it, if the subject came up in the course of > things, but > not *in* it, which is a whole separate deal.) > > > > --A number of years later, a Dean interviewing me privately for the > finalround of a tenure-track position noted my relative youth, and > wondered how > much of a role this might play in my student reviews. He was a > great guy, > really, but the clear implication was: you're young, and that's why > students like you. Oh! I remember saying something about how if > youth is a > flaw, it's a fleeting one, and pointing out that attitude and > approach can > always be fresh, but this was another of those moments of feeling > stuffeddisconcertingly back into my skin. I did accept that > position, and a > full-time faculty retreat soon followed. Overnight at a downstate > forestpreserve. There were sessions, and singing, and drinking, > and all sorts of > mandatory chumminess. One new colleague saw fit to ask me, as I > claimedtiredness and headed off to sleep, if I wore Frederick's of > Hollywoodlingerie to bed. Guess it was fun for him to think about > what all lacy > nothings I might have crammed into my rucksack, but, again- > uncomfortablybound in my skin by the power of a single comment. > Reduced to skin. That > night, my roommate, who was an Acting teacher very near retirement, > delighted me (and frightened me just a delicious little bit) by easily > regressing to a three-year old homesick child right before my eyes: > she > nailed the voice, the movement, the air of the thing. I could > practicallysee the air around her shimmer with magic as she did it. > Here was skin as > parchment, as costume, as malleable joy. More flinty and melting skin > moments eventually followed: the colleague who had "heard all > about" my > lesbian adventures (and how the hell does a straight married woman > who is > doubly offended--by the narrow-mindedness, there, first of all, and > by the > fact that he actually apparently had another colleague and good > friend in > mind-- respond intelligently to that one?); the all male Teaching > Centercommittee members, mostly twenty or more years older than me, > who proposed > setting me up in a kissing booth to generate funds; the miscarriage > that had > me missing a few sessions of still another committee, much to the > chagrin of > its chair, who finally backed off when, in a moment of frustration, > I told > the dean he sicced on me (and who was a great guy, and thus refused > to sic, > though he did discuss it with me) that I wasn't going to haul my > body to > thrice weekly meetings while blood was snaking down my inner thighs > anddidn't want to hear another word about it until I had this > physical problem > under control. Bloody female body as power and curse. It wasn't > discussedagain. > > > > --First year of grad school, while I was apparently busy being hot > withoutknowing it or wanting to be, I lived in an old garden style > apartmentbuilding. In the apartment just to the north of mine > lived Lisa, who had > been legally blind from birth. We met when she came to my door > with a > measuring cup in hand, seeking milk for something she was > preparing. Now, I > hope I'm not limiting her to her body when I observe that she was > gorgeous.Long brown hair, skin the most beautiful color I'd ever > seen, and the kind > of lithe and willowy body that a lifelong dancer might have. We > becamefriends. I learned all about the special computer she used > to magnify > books, listened to her boyfriend woes (he wasn't sure he wanted to > marry a > blind woman, but he wasn't thinking he wanted anyone else to have her, > either), and discovered that she was loathe to use her cane while > walkingaround campus. Never mind that she was practically killed > by bikers, > skaters, and general jostling several times a week. She didn't > want the > cane because it meant people would process her as "blind person," > steeraround her, and never engage with her on any other level. In > the apartment > just to south of me lived John, who had cerebral palsy. I learned > to keep > my apartment stocked with straws so I could offer him a drink when > he came > over, since drinking directly from a glass or can was tough for > him. John > couldn't leave the outward marks of CP at home, and it constantly > frustratedhim. Girls were a particular source of concern. Like > Lisa, he was very > generous with me. I'd never had close friends with disabilities > before, and > here, quite suddenly, I was flanked by them. They let me ask all > sorts of > questions. John and I had long discussions about the challenges of > dating.He was a romantic-writing poetry, buying flowers, falling > hard and fast. We > wondered, together, about how his body complicated things. Coming > on too > strong? He figured he came on too strong for some women just by > being.Just a year or so later, one of my own students, Barbara, > was blind. No > special viewing devices for her, since the blindness was total. > Our whole > class was somehow defined by her rhythms, which were assertive, but > kind,and very comfortable (largely a magic of her making). The > clicking of her > slate and stylus became part of our world, we all learned (even > "why would I > touch you when I don't even *know* you?" me) to offer our arms with > easewhen it came time for Barb to navigate the busy halls of the > Englishbuilding, and workshop days meant we all read aloud to each > other, so the > hum was constant. Barb wrote the most beautiful, detailed visual > descriptions. She always brought her slate and stylus to conference > sessions, too, and took notes as we talked. All of these generous > folks who > let me learn from them how to be easy with them (and hard on them, and > ticked at them, and just *with* them, generally) made it possible > for me to > be very comfortable with managing the challenges and joys of > working with > many later students who came bearing all sorts of bodily and emotional > difference: blindness, CP, deafness, brain damage, epilepsy, > depression,histories of abuse. > > > > --Suddenly, I'm remembering the bodies of teachers I loved. One very > overweight lit prof never, ever moved from the desk. She'd hike > herselfonto that scarred old block of wood at the front of the > classroom as the > period began, and sit there the whole time. And yet, I have this > impressionof grace when I think of the way she moved around in text > and in ideas, and > I remember feeling breathless and exhilarated by keeping up with her. > Then, there was the elfin film professor, very thin and short. He > used to > smoke and pace across the room-this little engine of energy, > puffing away. > And he'd fill the board with words and arrows and charts and > drawings that > marked and moved our discussion along. I could never sleep after his > classes. They left me wired and wanting to read, write, talk, > think *right > now.* Oh, oh-and the high school English teacher, Mrs. B. She was > allpleated wool skirts and cardigans, and she always had a line of > chalk dust > across her back, right where she leaned against the chalk tray when > she was > at the board. Very soft-spoken. When I think of her, now, it > seems to me > that her great and rare talent consisted mostly of setting us in > motion and > then getting out of the way. I remember just writing and writing and > reading and reading and writing some more, for her, but I never > rememberfeeling at all pressured about it. Her space was quiet and > absorbing. > > > > --Then, too, the bodies of teachers I didn't love so much. The > prim and > prissy Shakespeare prof who drew a large and apparently perfect > circle on > the board on day one, then turned to us and told us that the > ability to draw > a perfect circle was the sign of a rare and prodigious intelligence > was one > teacher I instantly and irreversibly hated-even more so more > because, of > course, I couldn't resist trying the circle thing, and instantly > discoveringthat without a compass, my circle making skills were > iffy, at best. Then, > there was the Econ prof who was simply boring. Somehow, I think > beige and > taupe when I think of him, though I can't really remember what he > wore. I > actually once got up, gathered my things, and walked out of that > class and > into the exhilarating spring sunshine (the sort of rudeness I > hardly ever > allow myself), simply because I couldn't take the monotone (and, > apparently,the monochrome) drone of him for one more instant. > Then, there was the Soc. > Prof who was persnickety as can be. Very smart, kind of funny, > but really > not at all nice. I remember watching the cowlick at his crown > bounce as he > paced the room. > > > > ---Random grad school memory: Lit prof known for flirting > outrageously (and > sometimes, more) with female students. Creep. But, I had one > friend with > whom he never, ever flirted, and she was deeply bummed about this. I > avoided his courses, so I was a bit at a loss. She *wanted* the > creep to be > creepy to her? Sigh. Yes. She wanted to know that she, too, was > worthy of > his creepiness. But she was not thin, not pretty in the way he was > drawnto, and entirely (as I told her, again and again) too smart > and too good and > far too beautiful for him, anyway. I never read Blake without > thinking of > her. > > > > --Random teaching memories: The young women who approached me very > solemnlyat the end of class one day, asked me to raise my arm, > withdrew a pair of > manicure scissors from her purse, and proceeded very gently to cut > the tag > that was hanging there. New jacket. My little glow of pleasure > about this > new thing-I was feeling uncommonly happy about the color and the > fabric and > the feel of it-wasn't at all undone by the gesture. Not many > people could > have been that tenderly respectful. Another young woman who > approached at > the end of class one day to thump our book onto the desk, and > declare "this > book doesn't include me." And so it didn't. She explained why, > and she was > right. A young man who wore a tee shirts with drawings of serial > killers on > them to class, who wanted to shake some reaction out of his > classmates in > this manner, and who did. Interesting negotiations had to go on to > preventthat one from blowing up. Another young man who wore lots > of black eye > makeup, lots of black clothing, lots of dangly earrings, and who > was very > quiet, very sensitive, a poet really. When I mentioned, one day, how > talented I thought he was, he said that it wasn't until college that > teachers ever said this wondrous thing to him or about him. Before > that, he > felt that he was always pretty immediately sized up and put into > the trouble > category. Oh, and so many more lessons delivered skillfully from > smartstudents to a teacher who learned from them that's it's best > to remember > that there's always something new to learn about how to be a good > teacher to > them. > > > > --Hmm, and then I was thinking, all in response to this module, of > how very > different various sections of the same course can be. One > semester, there > were two research writing courses. One group was pretty quiet, very > workmanlike, not that into conversation or debate, but very solemnly > absorbed. They consistently handed in amazing work, and basically > kickedbutt all the way. They were a pleasure, all around. Another > group was > challenging, raucous at times, questioned every little thing, and > cracked me > up on a regular basis. Their writing, on the whole, wasn't quite as > good-collectively, they had further to go--but the engagement level > was very > high. I would sometimes look at them in mock indignation and > declare that I > was lucky I could ever get a darned word in edgewise, with them. > Lots of > the students in this section were on their second or third time > through the > course. We decided, right off, that this would simply have to be it: > they'd make it even if it killed them-or me-and we allowed as to > how it just > might hurt a little bit, at times, but we'd just go on ahead and do it > together, anyway, and be glad of the chance to. Most of them (not > all, but > most) really did pass. Toward the end, they kicked me out of the room > during the last ten or fifteen minutes of class, one day. That had > neverhappened before, but there it was: "Mrs. Fitch, you have to > leave now. We > need to talk without you. Shoo." So, I left, wondering what they were > plotting. Might have been anything from a mutiny to a party, with > thatgroup. Turned out, they were plotting flowers. A huge bouquet > for me on > the first day of the last week. They had pooled their money, and also > pooled their garden resources. There were hothouse flowers, > wildflowers,and heavy branches of blossoms cut from trees and > shrubs in their yards (and > maybe their neighbors yards, too). It was a huge and crazy bouquet- > andexactly the sort of composition that best reflected their > spirit. I loved > it, and them. > > > > Oh, and there's so much more: the athleticism of teaching, > especially in a > computer lab setting; the maturing of both body and spirit over > time, and > how this impacts teaching; the various languages (Spanish, Vietnamese, > Russian, and countless others, plus ASL, gang signs, slang, tattoos, > costume, hair) students bring to the project of writing and > learning with > them; the language of fear and frustration in the classroom, as it > plays out > on every level; the cultural differences when it comes to virtually > everything, including how marriage, family, and success (all things > thatmatter for the project of learning) get defined. > > > > Well, no big insight to offer, but many seemingly disparate things > to ponder > and to continue to draw together, and for that I thank you. > > > > Kathy > > > > > > > > > > > > _____ > > From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of > StephenRuffus > Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:19 PM > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] NEW MODULE > > > > Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General > Educationcommittee at my school proposed that courses satisfying > the college's > diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more about > howstudents negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital > environments. It > seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. > > > > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor Department of English Florida State University 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way P. O. Box 3061580 Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 850.644.3530 (O) 850.644.0811 (F) kfleckenstein@fsu.edu From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Sun Nov 25 22:35:29 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Kristie Fleckenstein) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:35:29 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve Message-ID: Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received your post. I found it at the end of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting. Here's what you wrote. Kristie’s post brings something to mind. Recently, the General Education committee at my school proposed that courses satisfying the college’s diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more about how students negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital environments. It seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. Here's my response. I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment question, and one we need to keep reminding ourselves to ask. It reminds me of Coco Fusco’s work in _The Bodies that Were Not Ours_. (Fusco's a performance artist at Columbia U, and I've just discovered her work.) She’s concerned that digital technologies too easily lead to disembodiment in a couple ways. First, we users tend to forget that all that hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low wage assemble-line factory (she did 3 years of research in the factories along the Mexican border). AND we tend to assume that bodies don’t matter on line (back to the New Yorker cartoon—the one with the two dogs, one at a computer terminal who tells the other one that no one knows you’re a dog online). Fusco wants to keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do matter, especially online. It seems as if your school has gotten this message. So how do we answer that question? I know there are folks who are looking at the way in which we carry real world biases with us into virtual world spaces. But does anyone on the list know of research that looks at the way our minority students configure themselves in online environments? And, if not, how do we go about getting answers to these questions? Ideas? Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor Department of English Florida State University 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way P. O. Box 3061580 Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 850.644.3530 (O) 850.644.0811 (F) kfleckenstein@fsu.edu From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Mon Nov 26 02:32:55 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Susan Miller-Cochran) Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 21:32:55 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <000601c82fd4$a72f5b50$5f01a8c0@ENGVAIO> Kristie, Thank you for such a marvelous, thought-provoking module. In the spirit of sharing anecdotal evidence of (dis)embodied writing, I started thinking about some of my own teaching practices...perhaps with a bit of chagrin. I thought about how our bodies, or how our bodies are perceived by others, can silence us and limit the ways in which we "can" use language. And I thought of the discussions I have had with my students about developing ethos in an argument--how we can/'t make certain arguments because of who we are or how our bodies are represented....discussions that often end with statements like, "You might have trouble making that argument." What I'm often saying to students, without directly saying it, is "You might have trouble making that argument because of how you are seen by others." I don't want to say that out loud, but that's often what I mean. And I'm embarrassed to admit it. I'm not sure where my thoughts are going with this, but you've given me cause to rethink the ways that I approach these kinds of discussions with my students. Enough of my rambling for now. :) Susan -----Original Message----- From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of Kristie Fleckenstein Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:35 PM To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received your post. I found it at the end of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting. Here's what you wrote. Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General Education committee at my school proposed that courses satisfying the college's diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more about how students negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital environments. It seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. Here's my response. I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment question, and one we need to keep reminding ourselves to ask. It reminds me of Coco Fusco's work in _The Bodies that Were Not Ours_. (Fusco's a performance artist at Columbia U, and I've just discovered her work.) She's concerned that digital technologies too easily lead to disembodiment in a couple ways. First, we users tend to forget that all that hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low wage assemble-line factory (she did 3 years of research in the factories along the Mexican border). AND we tend to assume that bodies don't matter on line (back to the New Yorker cartoon-the one with the two dogs, one at a computer terminal who tells the other one that no one knows you're a dog online). Fusco wants to keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do matter, especially online. It seems as if your school has gotten this message. So how do we answer that question? I know there are folks who are looking at the way in which we carry real world biases with us into virtual world spaces. But does anyone on the list know of research that looks at the way our minority students configure themselves in online environments? And, if not, how do we go about getting answers to these questions? Ideas? Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor Department of English Florida State University 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way P. O. Box 3061580 Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 850.644.3530 (O) 850.644.0811 (F) kfleckenstein@fsu.edu _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition To unsubscribe, please visit http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and update your information. From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Mon Nov 26 20:50:05 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Rebecca Ingalls) Date: Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:50:05 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: responses to Steve In-Reply-To: <200711261701.lAQH11pH013264@localhost.eppg.com> Message-ID: Hi, all... I love these posts, as well. When I first made the transition from graduate student for professor, there was a CFP specifically for this very issue from the Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies. I wrote an article for that issue titled "Unmasking the Brilliant Disguise: Smallness, Authority and the Irony of a Teacher's Body," in which I discuss the rhetorical implications of being young, quite small and female in the classroom. The entire issue is wonderful -- a beautiful collection of analytical narratives discussing the subjectivity of physical bodies in the classroom. Review of Education, Pedagogy & Cultural Studies, Volume 28 (Dec 2006). There is also a wonderful book dealing with these issues: The Teacher’s Body: Embodiment, Authority, and Identity in the Academy, ed. D. P. Freedman and M. S. Holmes. Albany: State University of New York Press, 2003. Sincerely, Rebecca -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Rebecca Ingalls, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of English and Writing University of Tampa And this, our life, exempt from public haunt, finds tongues in trees, books in the running brooks, sermons in stones, and good in everything. I would not change it. — W. Shakespeare ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ On 11/26/07 12:01 PM, "teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com" wrote: > Send Teaching_Composition mailing list submissions to > teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Teaching_Composition digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] Of Bodies Writing (Kristie Fleckenstein) > 2. responses to steve (Kristie Fleckenstein) > 3. RE: responses to steve (Susan Miller-Cochran) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: Kristie Fleckenstein > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:43:31 -0500 > Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] Of Bodies Writing > Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > Oh, my gosh, Kathy, your post brought back so many of my own memories in and > out of the classroom. I started teaching high school right out of college when > I was 22∑only 4 to 5 years older than the students I was teaching. Yikes! > When I got my first journal from a student describing how he‚d love to meet me > for pizza some weekend, I was more than a little uneasy and a lot flustered. > (I suppose I should have been happy he didn't ask me to bring the beer!) > Nothing in my undergrad ed classes (in the early 70s) had prepared me for > something like that. > > As a former WPA, I spent time dealing with such issues in TA training, but I > know that we don't have a lot of attention paid to embodiment in essay > collections designed for TA training. Lots of essays on what they (TAs) need > to know, which is definitely important. But essays on body concerns tend to > be in short supply, and I think that "corporeal" preparation is just as > important as course content. > > So what's going on in secondary ed training? I‚ve been out of the secondary ed > loop for too many years to know if issues of embodiment are addressed in our > undergraduate methods courses. Or perhaps "embodiment" is bundled in with > discussions of harassment? > > Can others on the list help us out here? Does UG teacher training clases deal > with body issues? > > And your memories, Kathy, reminded me of Steve‚s post, too, because I can‚t > help but wonder, especially as I watch my older daughter develop a rich, > complex network of online friendships (including at one time, I suspect, a > romantic connection) if the We 2.0 generation is developing not only different > modes of communication but also different senses of their bodies. Does the Web > 2.0 generation have a more flexible understanding of bodies than does the > typographic generation? If so, flexible how? And what are the implications of > those differences? > > Oddly enough, those questions make my mind jump to NCLB. Do we have in high > stakes testing a complete denial of bodies? And, if we shape curriculum to > align with high stakes testing, are we systematically denying the reality of > bodies in our K through postsecondary classrooms? How does interact with the > Web 2.0 experiences? Does it widen the gulf between "real" life and "school" > life? "real" literacies and "school" literacies? > > I can't help but wonder what would happen if we looked at some of the issues > plaguing education, K through postsecondary, through the lens of embodiment. > Might we find new ways of looking at nagging problems and perhaps coming up > with some novels solutions to those problems? > > I'd like to think so. > > Kris > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Kathy Fitch > Date: Monday, November 19, 2007 6:44 pm > Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] Of Bodies Writing > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >> Kristie, >> >> >> >> I love your module. It's exciting, inviting, richly thought >> provoking, and >> comes at just the perfect time for me, and, I'm sure, for others, >> as well-if >> you love to write, it's always the perfect time to ponder poetry, >> which, for >> me, is what we get when the body, the realm of imagery, and symbol >> systemsget all beautifully tangled up in one another. If you love >> to teach >> writing, then perhaps it's always urgent to keep some poetry in >> your bones. >> All of which is to say, the (long, now, sorry) meandering to follow >> is all >> your fault, and I thank you for the excuse to do it (not that I >> ever need >> too much of an excuse, mind you). >> >> >> >> --After reading your module, I started remembering. The very first >> semesterthat I taught as a grad TA, many of my friends, including >> my roommate of the >> year before, who was a Sophomore when I started teaching writing, >> were still >> undergraduates. It's strange to think of, now, since I've never >> been what a >> person might call conventionally attractive (by whatever definition >> is going >> at the moment-so far, none of them has seemed to have the likes of >> me in >> mind, though I suppose it could happen any minute, now), but, at >> that time, >> some of my students were apparently physically attracted to me. I >> typicallydressed up a few notches for class, since I was aware >> enough of issues of >> appearance to understand that I looked pretty much exactly like my >> studentsas far as both age and general style went, and since I >> didn't have nearly >> enough natural or acquired authority at that point not to need any >> of the >> external trappings of it. I remember being nervous, of course, but >> soon we >> were focused on writing, and I rather forgot about my physical >> presenceexcept for the general pleasure of moving about the class, >> talking,laughing, answering questions, asking them, listening, all >> of that. So, a >> few weeks into it, I was feeling pretty good about the whole thing. >> Then, I >> visited with my roommate of the year before. She knew some of my >> students-partied with them at frat houses, it seems-and passed >> along the >> news that several of them found me "hot." There were no >> ratemyprofessorservices complete with chili pepper hotness scores >> back then, and I'm glad, >> because even though I understood that this was supposed to be a >> compliment,and this is clearly how my friend figured I'd take it, >> that bit of feedback >> made me feel weird. It was like I had been floating up on one of >> thosesilvery tethers, marvelously non body conscious, and then was >> suddenly,unceremoniously slammed right on back into my skin. It >> was a high gravity >> moment. I didn't like it. Already, then, and ever since, I simply >> neverrelated to my students that way. Here were people whose >> intellectualwellbeing I was claiming some responsibility for: >> sexual flirtation wasn't >> a language it would ever have occurred to me to speak to them in. >> (I'dspeak to them *of* it, if the subject came up in the course of >> things, but >> not *in* it, which is a whole separate deal.) >> >> >> >> --A number of years later, a Dean interviewing me privately for the >> finalround of a tenure-track position noted my relative youth, and >> wondered how >> much of a role this might play in my student reviews. He was a >> great guy, >> really, but the clear implication was: you're young, and that's why >> students like you. Oh! I remember saying something about how if >> youth is a >> flaw, it's a fleeting one, and pointing out that attitude and >> approach can >> always be fresh, but this was another of those moments of feeling >> stuffeddisconcertingly back into my skin. I did accept that >> position, and a >> full-time faculty retreat soon followed. Overnight at a downstate >> forestpreserve. There were sessions, and singing, and drinking, >> and all sorts of >> mandatory chumminess. One new colleague saw fit to ask me, as I >> claimedtiredness and headed off to sleep, if I wore Frederick's of >> Hollywoodlingerie to bed. Guess it was fun for him to think about >> what all lacy >> nothings I might have crammed into my rucksack, but, again- >> uncomfortablybound in my skin by the power of a single comment. >> Reduced to skin. That >> night, my roommate, who was an Acting teacher very near retirement, >> delighted me (and frightened me just a delicious little bit) by easily >> regressing to a three-year old homesick child right before my eyes: >> she >> nailed the voice, the movement, the air of the thing. I could >> practicallysee the air around her shimmer with magic as she did it. >> Here was skin as >> parchment, as costume, as malleable joy. More flinty and melting skin >> moments eventually followed: the colleague who had "heard all >> about" my >> lesbian adventures (and how the hell does a straight married woman >> who is >> doubly offended--by the narrow-mindedness, there, first of all, and >> by the >> fact that he actually apparently had another colleague and good >> friend in >> mind-- respond intelligently to that one?); the all male Teaching >> Centercommittee members, mostly twenty or more years older than me, >> who proposed >> setting me up in a kissing booth to generate funds; the miscarriage >> that had >> me missing a few sessions of still another committee, much to the >> chagrin of >> its chair, who finally backed off when, in a moment of frustration, >> I told >> the dean he sicced on me (and who was a great guy, and thus refused >> to sic, >> though he did discuss it with me) that I wasn't going to haul my >> body to >> thrice weekly meetings while blood was snaking down my inner thighs >> anddidn't want to hear another word about it until I had this >> physical problem >> under control. Bloody female body as power and curse. It wasn't >> discussedagain. >> >> >> >> --First year of grad school, while I was apparently busy being hot >> withoutknowing it or wanting to be, I lived in an old garden style >> apartmentbuilding. In the apartment just to the north of mine >> lived Lisa, who had >> been legally blind from birth. We met when she came to my door >> with a >> measuring cup in hand, seeking milk for something she was >> preparing. Now, I >> hope I'm not limiting her to her body when I observe that she was >> gorgeous.Long brown hair, skin the most beautiful color I'd ever >> seen, and the kind >> of lithe and willowy body that a lifelong dancer might have. We >> becamefriends. I learned all about the special computer she used >> to magnify >> books, listened to her boyfriend woes (he wasn't sure he wanted to >> marry a >> blind woman, but he wasn't thinking he wanted anyone else to have her, >> either), and discovered that she was loathe to use her cane while >> walkingaround campus. Never mind that she was practically killed >> by bikers, >> skaters, and general jostling several times a week. She didn't >> want the >> cane because it meant people would process her as "blind person," >> steeraround her, and never engage with her on any other level. In >> the apartment >> just to south of me lived John, who had cerebral palsy. I learned >> to keep >> my apartment stocked with straws so I could offer him a drink when >> he came >> over, since drinking directly from a glass or can was tough for >> him. John >> couldn't leave the outward marks of CP at home, and it constantly >> frustratedhim. Girls were a particular source of concern. Like >> Lisa, he was very >> generous with me. I'd never had close friends with disabilities >> before, and >> here, quite suddenly, I was flanked by them. They let me ask all >> sorts of >> questions. John and I had long discussions about the challenges of >> dating.He was a romantic-writing poetry, buying flowers, falling >> hard and fast. We >> wondered, together, about how his body complicated things. Coming >> on too >> strong? He figured he came on too strong for some women just by >> being.Just a year or so later, one of my own students, Barbara, >> was blind. No >> special viewing devices for her, since the blindness was total. >> Our whole >> class was somehow defined by her rhythms, which were assertive, but >> kind,and very comfortable (largely a magic of her making). The >> clicking of her >> slate and stylus became part of our world, we all learned (even >> "why would I >> touch you when I don't even *know* you?" me) to offer our arms with >> easewhen it came time for Barb to navigate the busy halls of the >> Englishbuilding, and workshop days meant we all read aloud to each >> other, so the >> hum was constant. Barb wrote the most beautiful, detailed visual >> descriptions. She always brought her slate and stylus to conference >> sessions, too, and took notes as we talked. All of these generous >> folks who >> let me learn from them how to be easy with them (and hard on them, and >> ticked at them, and just *with* them, generally) made it possible >> for me to >> be very comfortable with managing the challenges and joys of >> working with >> many later students who came bearing all sorts of bodily and emotional >> difference: blindness, CP, deafness, brain damage, epilepsy, >> depression,histories of abuse. >> >> >> >> --Suddenly, I'm remembering the bodies of teachers I loved. One very >> overweight lit prof never, ever moved from the desk. She'd hike >> herselfonto that scarred old block of wood at the front of the >> classroom as the >> period began, and sit there the whole time. And yet, I have this >> impressionof grace when I think of the way she moved around in text >> and in ideas, and >> I remember feeling breathless and exhilarated by keeping up with her. >> Then, there was the elfin film professor, very thin and short. He >> used to >> smoke and pace across the room-this little engine of energy, >> puffing away. >> And he'd fill the board with words and arrows and charts and >> drawings that >> marked and moved our discussion along. I could never sleep after his >> classes. They left me wired and wanting to read, write, talk, >> think *right >> now.* Oh, oh-and the high school English teacher, Mrs. B. She was >> allpleated wool skirts and cardigans, and she always had a line of >> chalk dust >> across her back, right where she leaned against the chalk tray when >> she was >> at the board. Very soft-spoken. When I think of her, now, it >> seems to me >> that her great and rare talent consisted mostly of setting us in >> motion and >> then getting out of the way. I remember just writing and writing and >> reading and reading and writing some more, for her, but I never >> rememberfeeling at all pressured about it. Her space was quiet and >> absorbing. >> >> >> >> --Then, too, the bodies of teachers I didn't love so much. The >> prim and >> prissy Shakespeare prof who drew a large and apparently perfect >> circle on >> the board on day one, then turned to us and told us that the >> ability to draw >> a perfect circle was the sign of a rare and prodigious intelligence >> was one >> teacher I instantly and irreversibly hated-even more so more >> because, of >> course, I couldn't resist trying the circle thing, and instantly >> discoveringthat without a compass, my circle making skills were >> iffy, at best. Then, >> there was the Econ prof who was simply boring. Somehow, I think >> beige and >> taupe when I think of him, though I can't really remember what he >> wore. I >> actually once got up, gathered my things, and walked out of that >> class and >> into the exhilarating spring sunshine (the sort of rudeness I >> hardly ever >> allow myself), simply because I couldn't take the monotone (and, >> apparently,the monochrome) drone of him for one more instant. >> Then, there was the Soc. >> Prof who was persnickety as can be. Very smart, kind of funny, >> but really >> not at all nice. I remember watching the cowlick at his crown >> bounce as he >> paced the room. >> >> >> >> ---Random grad school memory: Lit prof known for flirting >> outrageously (and >> sometimes, more) with female students. Creep. But, I had one >> friend with >> whom he never, ever flirted, and she was deeply bummed about this. I >> avoided his courses, so I was a bit at a loss. She *wanted* the >> creep to be >> creepy to her? Sigh. Yes. She wanted to know that she, too, was >> worthy of >> his creepiness. But she was not thin, not pretty in the way he was >> drawnto, and entirely (as I told her, again and again) too smart >> and too good and >> far too beautiful for him, anyway. I never read Blake without >> thinking of >> her. >> >> >> >> --Random teaching memories: The young women who approached me very >> solemnlyat the end of class one day, asked me to raise my arm, >> withdrew a pair of >> manicure scissors from her purse, and proceeded very gently to cut >> the tag >> that was hanging there. New jacket. My little glow of pleasure >> about this >> new thing-I was feeling uncommonly happy about the color and the >> fabric and >> the feel of it-wasn't at all undone by the gesture. Not many >> people could >> have been that tenderly respectful. Another young woman who >> approached at >> the end of class one day to thump our book onto the desk, and >> declare "this >> book doesn't include me." And so it didn't. She explained why, >> and she was >> right. A young man who wore a tee shirts with drawings of serial >> killers on >> them to class, who wanted to shake some reaction out of his >> classmates in >> this manner, and who did. Interesting negotiations had to go on to >> preventthat one from blowing up. Another young man who wore lots >> of black eye >> makeup, lots of black clothing, lots of dangly earrings, and who >> was very >> quiet, very sensitive, a poet really. When I mentioned, one day, how >> talented I thought he was, he said that it wasn't until college that >> teachers ever said this wondrous thing to him or about him. Before >> that, he >> felt that he was always pretty immediately sized up and put into >> the trouble >> category. Oh, and so many more lessons delivered skillfully from >> smartstudents to a teacher who learned from them that's it's best >> to remember >> that there's always something new to learn about how to be a good >> teacher to >> them. >> >> >> >> --Hmm, and then I was thinking, all in response to this module, of >> how very >> different various sections of the same course can be. One >> semester, there >> were two research writing courses. One group was pretty quiet, very >> workmanlike, not that into conversation or debate, but very solemnly >> absorbed. They consistently handed in amazing work, and basically >> kickedbutt all the way. They were a pleasure, all around. Another >> group was >> challenging, raucous at times, questioned every little thing, and >> cracked me >> up on a regular basis. Their writing, on the whole, wasn't quite as >> good-collectively, they had further to go--but the engagement level >> was very >> high. I would sometimes look at them in mock indignation and >> declare that I >> was lucky I could ever get a darned word in edgewise, with them. >> Lots of >> the students in this section were on their second or third time >> through the >> course. We decided, right off, that this would simply have to be it: >> they'd make it even if it killed them-or me-and we allowed as to >> how it just >> might hurt a little bit, at times, but we'd just go on ahead and do it >> together, anyway, and be glad of the chance to. Most of them (not >> all, but >> most) really did pass. Toward the end, they kicked me out of the room >> during the last ten or fifteen minutes of class, one day. That had >> neverhappened before, but there it was: "Mrs. Fitch, you have to >> leave now. We >> need to talk without you. Shoo." So, I left, wondering what they were >> plotting. Might have been anything from a mutiny to a party, with >> thatgroup. Turned out, they were plotting flowers. A huge bouquet >> for me on >> the first day of the last week. They had pooled their money, and also >> pooled their garden resources. There were hothouse flowers, >> wildflowers,and heavy branches of blossoms cut from trees and >> shrubs in their yards (and >> maybe their neighbors yards, too). It was a huge and crazy bouquet- >> andexactly the sort of composition that best reflected their >> spirit. I loved >> it, and them. >> >> >> >> Oh, and there's so much more: the athleticism of teaching, >> especially in a >> computer lab setting; the maturing of both body and spirit over >> time, and >> how this impacts teaching; the various languages (Spanish, Vietnamese, >> Russian, and countless others, plus ASL, gang signs, slang, tattoos, >> costume, hair) students bring to the project of writing and >> learning with >> them; the language of fear and frustration in the classroom, as it >> plays out >> on every level; the cultural differences when it comes to virtually >> everything, including how marriage, family, and success (all things >> thatmatter for the project of learning) get defined. >> >> >> >> Well, no big insight to offer, but many seemingly disparate things >> to ponder >> and to continue to draw together, and for that I thank you. >> >> >> >> Kathy >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> _____ >> >> From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com >> [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of >> StephenRuffus >> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:19 PM >> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >> Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] NEW MODULE >> >> >> >> Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General >> Educationcommittee at my school proposed that courses satisfying >> the college's >> diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more about >> howstudents negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital >> environments. It >> seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. >> >> >> >> > > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > Department of English > Florida State University > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > P. O. Box 3061580 > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > 850.644.3530 (O) > 850.644.0811 (F) > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 2 > From: Kristie Fleckenstein > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:35:29 -0500 > Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received your post. I found it at the > end of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting. > > Here's what you wrote. > > Kristie‚s post brings something to mind. Recently, the General Education > committee at my school proposed that courses satisfying the college‚s > diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more about how > students negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital environments. It > seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. > > Here's my response. > > I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment question, and one we > need to keep reminding ourselves to ask. > > It reminds me of Coco Fusco‚s work in _The Bodies that Were Not Ours_. > (Fusco's a performance artist at Columbia U, and I've just discovered her > work.) She‚s concerned that digital technologies too easily lead to > disembodiment in a couple ways. First, we users tend to forget that all that > hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low wage assemble-line > factory (she did 3 years of research in the factories along the Mexican > border). AND we tend to assume that bodies don‚t matter on line (back to the > New Yorker cartoonËœthe one with the two dogs, one at a computer terminal who > tells the other one that no one knows you‚re a dog online). Fusco wants to > keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do matter, especially online. > > It seems as if your school has gotten this message. So how do we answer that > question? > > I know there are folks who are looking at the way in which we carry real world > biases with us into virtual world spaces. But does anyone on the list know of > research that looks at the way our minority students configure themselves in > online environments? And, if not, how do we go about getting answers to these > questions? > > Ideas? > > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > Department of English > Florida State University > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > P. O. Box 3061580 > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > 850.644.3530 (O) > 850.644.0811 (F) > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > > > --__--__-- > > Message: 3 > From: "Susan Miller-Cochran" > To: > Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 21:32:55 -0500 > Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > Kristie, > > Thank you for such a marvelous, thought-provoking module. In the spirit of > sharing anecdotal evidence of (dis)embodied writing, I started thinking > about some of my own teaching practices...perhaps with a bit of chagrin. I > thought about how our bodies, or how our bodies are perceived by others, can > silence us and limit the ways in which we "can" use language. And I thought > of the discussions I have had with my students about developing ethos in an > argument--how we can/'t make certain arguments because of who we are or how > our bodies are represented....discussions that often end with statements > like, "You might have trouble making that argument." What I'm often saying > to students, without directly saying it, is "You might have trouble making > that argument because of how you are seen by others." I don't want to say > that out loud, but that's often what I mean. And I'm embarrassed to admit > it. > > I'm not sure where my thoughts are going with this, but you've given me > cause to rethink the ways that I approach these kinds of discussions with my > students. > > Enough of my rambling for now. :) > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of Kristie > Fleckenstein > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:35 PM > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > > Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received your post. I found it at the > end of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting. > > Here's what you wrote. > > Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General Education > committee at my school proposed that courses satisfying the college's > diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more about how > students negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital environments. It > seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. > > Here's my response. > > I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment question, and one we > need to keep reminding ourselves to ask. > > It reminds me of Coco Fusco's work in _The Bodies that Were Not Ours_. > (Fusco's a performance artist at Columbia U, and I've just discovered her > work.) She's concerned that digital technologies too easily lead to > disembodiment in a couple ways. First, we users tend to forget that all > that hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low wage > assemble-line factory (she did 3 years of research in the factories along > the Mexican border). AND we tend to assume that bodies don't matter on line > (back to the New Yorker cartoon-the one with the two dogs, one at a computer > terminal who tells the other one that no one knows you're a dog online). > Fusco wants to keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do matter, especially > online. > > It seems as if your school has gotten this message. So how do we answer > that question? > > I know there are folks who are looking at the way in which we carry real > world biases with us into virtual world spaces. But does anyone on the list > know of research that looks at the way our minority students configure > themselves in online environments? And, if not, how do we go about getting > answers to these questions? > > Ideas? > > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > Department of English > Florida State University > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > P. O. Box 3061580 > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > 850.644.3530 (O) > 850.644.0811 (F) > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and update > your information. > > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > > End of Teaching_Composition Digest From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Tue Nov 27 09:42:12 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Kristie Fleckenstein) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 04:42:12 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve In-Reply-To: <000601c82fd4$a72f5b50$5f01a8c0@ENGVAIO> References: <000601c82fd4$a72f5b50$5f01a8c0@ENGVAIO> Message-ID: You know, tho', Susan, even Aristotelian ethos had a material aspect, one related to the body through eunoia, or friendliness. Regardless of A's saying that good character is created only through the words of a speech, he also points to the importance of creating a physical appearance that establishes friendliness. Even delivery has a role to play in ethos. So I don't think you're off the mark to consider bodies as part of our rhetorical toolbox. Maybe the problem is that bodies matter, but that bodies matter in potentially negative and pejorative ways; i.e., because you do not possess the "right" body, you can't make that argument (or you can't make that argument persuasively). Perhaps this cultural reality constitutes another important area of critical engagement for our students and for us as teachers? Kris ----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Miller-Cochran Date: Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:41 pm Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > Kristie, > > Thank you for such a marvelous, thought-provoking module. In the > spirit of > sharing anecdotal evidence of (dis)embodied writing, I started > thinkingabout some of my own teaching practices...perhaps with a > bit of chagrin. I > thought about how our bodies, or how our bodies are perceived by > others, can > silence us and limit the ways in which we "can" use language. And I > thoughtof the discussions I have had with my students about > developing ethos in an > argument--how we can/'t make certain arguments because of who we > are or how > our bodies are represented....discussions that often end with > statementslike, "You might have trouble making that argument." What > I'm often saying > to students, without directly saying it, is "You might have trouble > makingthat argument because of how you are seen by others." I don't > want to say > that out loud, but that's often what I mean. And I'm embarrassed to > admitit. > > I'm not sure where my thoughts are going with this, but you've > given me > cause to rethink the ways that I approach these kinds of > discussions with my > students. > > Enough of my rambling for now. :) > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of > KristieFleckenstein > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:35 PM > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > > Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received your post. I found > it at the > end of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting. > > Here's what you wrote. > > Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General > Educationcommittee at my school proposed that courses satisfying > the college's > diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more about > howstudents negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital > environments. It > seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. > > Here's my response. > > I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment question, and > one we > need to keep reminding ourselves to ask. > > It reminds me of Coco Fusco's work in _The Bodies that Were Not Ours_. > (Fusco's a performance artist at Columbia U, and I've just > discovered her > work.) She's concerned that digital technologies too easily lead to > disembodiment in a couple ways. First, we users tend to forget > that all > that hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low wage > assemble-line factory (she did 3 years of research in the factories > alongthe Mexican border). AND we tend to assume that bodies don't > matter on line > (back to the New Yorker cartoon-the one with the two dogs, one at a > computerterminal who tells the other one that no one knows you're a > dog online). > Fusco wants to keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do matter, > especiallyonline. > > It seems as if your school has gotten this message. So how do we > answerthat question? > > I know there are folks who are looking at the way in which we carry > realworld biases with us into virtual world spaces. But does > anyone on the list > know of research that looks at the way our minority students configure > themselves in online environments? And, if not, how do we go about > gettinganswers to these questions? > > Ideas? > > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > Department of English > Florida State University > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > P. O. Box 3061580 > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > 850.644.3530 (O) > 850.644.0811 (F) > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > updateyour information. > > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > update your information. > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor Department of English Florida State University 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way P. O. Box 3061580 Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 850.644.3530 (O) 850.644.0811 (F) kfleckenstein@fsu.edu From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Tue Nov 27 10:04:24 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Kristie Fleckenstein) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 05:04:24 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: responses to Steve In-Reply-To: References: <200711261701.lAQH11pH013264@localhost.eppg.com> Message-ID: Wonderful, Rebecca. I'll follow up on these. I wonder if we could collect and post on the McGraw Hill website all these references that people share. Has this been done in the past? It would make a great reading list for all of us struggling with these issues. One of the nice things about this very focused listserv is that we can get a "collective mind" kind of phenomenon going. The more minds the better! Kris ----- Original Message ----- From: Rebecca Ingalls Date: Monday, November 26, 2007 4:04 pm Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: responses to Steve To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > Hi, all... > > I love these posts, as well. When I first made the transition from > graduatestudent for professor, there was a CFP specifically for > this very issue from > the Review of Education, Pedagogy, and Cultural Studies. I wrote an > articlefor that issue titled "Unmasking the Brilliant Disguise: > Smallness,Authority and the Irony of a Teacher's Body," in which I > discuss the > rhetorical implications of being young, quite small and female in the > classroom. The entire issue is wonderful -- a beautiful collection of > analytical narratives discussing the subjectivity of physical > bodies in the > classroom. > > Review of Education, Pedagogy & Cultural Studies, Volume 28 (Dec > 2006). > There is also a wonderful book dealing with these issues: > > The Teacher’s Body: Embodiment, Authority, and Identity in the > Academy, ed. > D. P. Freedman and M. S. Holmes. Albany: State University of New > York Press, > 2003. > > Sincerely, > Rebecca > > > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Rebecca Ingalls, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Department of English and Writing > University of Tampa > > > And this, our life, exempt from public > haunt, finds tongues in trees, books in > the running brooks, sermons in stones, > and good in everything. > > I would not change it. > > — W. Shakespeare > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > > On 11/26/07 12:01 PM, "teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com" > wrote: > > > Send Teaching_Composition mailing list submissions to > > teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Teaching_Composition digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] Of Bodies Writing (Kristie > Fleckenstein)> 2. responses to steve (Kristie Fleckenstein) > > 3. RE: responses to steve (Susan Miller-Cochran) > > > > --__--__-- > > > > Message: 1 > > From: Kristie Fleckenstein > > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 16:43:31 -0500 > > Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] Of Bodies Writing > > Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > > > Oh, my gosh, Kathy, your post brought back so many of my own > memories in and > > out of the classroom. I started teaching high school right out of > college when > > I was 22∑only 4 to 5 years older than the students I was > teaching. Yikes! > > When I got my first journal from a student describing how he‚d > love to meet me > > for pizza some weekend, I was more than a little uneasy and a lot > flustered.> (I suppose I should have been happy he didn't ask me to > bring the beer!) > > Nothing in my undergrad ed classes (in the early 70s) had > prepared me for > > something like that. > > > > As a former WPA, I spent time dealing with such issues in TA > training, but I > > know that we don't have a lot of attention paid to embodiment in > essay> collections designed for TA training. Lots of essays on > what they (TAs) need > > to know, which is definitely important. But essays on body > concerns tend to > > be in short supply, and I think that "corporeal" preparation is > just as > > important as course content. > > > > So what's going on in secondary ed training? I‚ve been out of the > secondary ed > > loop for too many years to know if issues of embodiment are > addressed in our > > undergraduate methods courses. Or perhaps "embodiment" is > bundled in with > > discussions of harassment? > > > > Can others on the list help us out here? Does UG teacher > training clases deal > > with body issues? > > > > And your memories, Kathy, reminded me of Steve‚s post, too, > because I can‚t > > help but wonder, especially as I watch my older daughter develop > a rich, > > complex network of online friendships (including at one time, I > suspect, a > > romantic connection) if the We 2.0 generation is developing not > only different > > modes of communication but also different senses of their bodies. > Does the Web > > 2.0 generation have a more flexible understanding of bodies than > does the > > typographic generation? If so, flexible how? And what are the > implications of > > those differences? > > > > Oddly enough, those questions make my mind jump to NCLB. Do we > have in high > > stakes testing a complete denial of bodies? And, if we shape > curriculum to > > align with high stakes testing, are we systematically denying the > reality of > > bodies in our K through postsecondary classrooms? How does > interact with the > > Web 2.0 experiences? Does it widen the gulf between "real" life > and "school" > > life? "real" literacies and "school" literacies? > > > > I can't help but wonder what would happen if we looked at some of > the issues > > plaguing education, K through postsecondary, through the lens of > embodiment.> Might we find new ways of looking at nagging problems > and perhaps coming up > > with some novels solutions to those problems? > > > > I'd like to think so. > > > > Kris > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Kathy Fitch > > Date: Monday, November 19, 2007 6:44 pm > > Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] Of Bodies Writing > > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > > >> Kristie, > >> > >> > >> > >> I love your module. It's exciting, inviting, richly thought > >> provoking, and > >> comes at just the perfect time for me, and, I'm sure, for others, > >> as well-if > >> you love to write, it's always the perfect time to ponder poetry, > >> which, for > >> me, is what we get when the body, the realm of imagery, and symbol > >> systemsget all beautifully tangled up in one another. If you love > >> to teach > >> writing, then perhaps it's always urgent to keep some poetry in > >> your bones. > >> All of which is to say, the (long, now, sorry) meandering to follow > >> is all > >> your fault, and I thank you for the excuse to do it (not that I > >> ever need > >> too much of an excuse, mind you). > >> > >> > >> > >> --After reading your module, I started remembering. The very first > >> semesterthat I taught as a grad TA, many of my friends, including > >> my roommate of the > >> year before, who was a Sophomore when I started teaching writing, > >> were still > >> undergraduates. It's strange to think of, now, since I've never > >> been what a > >> person might call conventionally attractive (by whatever definition > >> is going > >> at the moment-so far, none of them has seemed to have the likes of > >> me in > >> mind, though I suppose it could happen any minute, now), but, at > >> that time, > >> some of my students were apparently physically attracted to me. I > >> typicallydressed up a few notches for class, since I was aware > >> enough of issues of > >> appearance to understand that I looked pretty much exactly like my > >> studentsas far as both age and general style went, and since I > >> didn't have nearly > >> enough natural or acquired authority at that point not to need any > >> of the > >> external trappings of it. I remember being nervous, of course, but > >> soon we > >> were focused on writing, and I rather forgot about my physical > >> presenceexcept for the general pleasure of moving about the class, > >> talking,laughing, answering questions, asking them, listening, all > >> of that. So, a > >> few weeks into it, I was feeling pretty good about the whole thing. > >> Then, I > >> visited with my roommate of the year before. She knew some of my > >> students-partied with them at frat houses, it seems-and passed > >> along the > >> news that several of them found me "hot." There were no > >> ratemyprofessorservices complete with chili pepper hotness scores > >> back then, and I'm glad, > >> because even though I understood that this was supposed to be a > >> compliment,and this is clearly how my friend figured I'd take it, > >> that bit of feedback > >> made me feel weird. It was like I had been floating up on one of > >> thosesilvery tethers, marvelously non body conscious, and then was > >> suddenly,unceremoniously slammed right on back into my skin. It > >> was a high gravity > >> moment. I didn't like it. Already, then, and ever since, I simply > >> neverrelated to my students that way. Here were people whose > >> intellectualwellbeing I was claiming some responsibility for: > >> sexual flirtation wasn't > >> a language it would ever have occurred to me to speak to them in. > >> (I'dspeak to them *of* it, if the subject came up in the course of > >> things, but > >> not *in* it, which is a whole separate deal.) > >> > >> > >> > >> --A number of years later, a Dean interviewing me privately for the > >> finalround of a tenure-track position noted my relative youth, and > >> wondered how > >> much of a role this might play in my student reviews. He was a > >> great guy, > >> really, but the clear implication was: you're young, and that's > why>> students like you. Oh! I remember saying something about > how if > >> youth is a > >> flaw, it's a fleeting one, and pointing out that attitude and > >> approach can > >> always be fresh, but this was another of those moments of feeling > >> stuffeddisconcertingly back into my skin. I did accept that > >> position, and a > >> full-time faculty retreat soon followed. Overnight at a downstate > >> forestpreserve. There were sessions, and singing, and drinking, > >> and all sorts of > >> mandatory chumminess. One new colleague saw fit to ask me, as I > >> claimedtiredness and headed off to sleep, if I wore Frederick's of > >> Hollywoodlingerie to bed. Guess it was fun for him to think about > >> what all lacy > >> nothings I might have crammed into my rucksack, but, again- > >> uncomfortablybound in my skin by the power of a single comment. > >> Reduced to skin. That > >> night, my roommate, who was an Acting teacher very near retirement, > >> delighted me (and frightened me just a delicious little bit) by > easily>> regressing to a three-year old homesick child right before > my eyes: > >> she > >> nailed the voice, the movement, the air of the thing. I could > >> practicallysee the air around her shimmer with magic as she did it. > >> Here was skin as > >> parchment, as costume, as malleable joy. More flinty and > melting skin > >> moments eventually followed: the colleague who had "heard all > >> about" my > >> lesbian adventures (and how the hell does a straight married woman > >> who is > >> doubly offended--by the narrow-mindedness, there, first of all, and > >> by the > >> fact that he actually apparently had another colleague and good > >> friend in > >> mind-- respond intelligently to that one?); the all male Teaching > >> Centercommittee members, mostly twenty or more years older than me, > >> who proposed > >> setting me up in a kissing booth to generate funds; the miscarriage > >> that had > >> me missing a few sessions of still another committee, much to the > >> chagrin of > >> its chair, who finally backed off when, in a moment of frustration, > >> I told > >> the dean he sicced on me (and who was a great guy, and thus refused > >> to sic, > >> though he did discuss it with me) that I wasn't going to haul my > >> body to > >> thrice weekly meetings while blood was snaking down my inner thighs > >> anddidn't want to hear another word about it until I had this > >> physical problem > >> under control. Bloody female body as power and curse. It wasn't > >> discussedagain. > >> > >> > >> > >> --First year of grad school, while I was apparently busy being hot > >> withoutknowing it or wanting to be, I lived in an old garden style > >> apartmentbuilding. In the apartment just to the north of mine > >> lived Lisa, who had > >> been legally blind from birth. We met when she came to my door > >> with a > >> measuring cup in hand, seeking milk for something she was > >> preparing. Now, I > >> hope I'm not limiting her to her body when I observe that she was > >> gorgeous.Long brown hair, skin the most beautiful color I'd ever > >> seen, and the kind > >> of lithe and willowy body that a lifelong dancer might have. We > >> becamefriends. I learned all about the special computer she used > >> to magnify > >> books, listened to her boyfriend woes (he wasn't sure he wanted to > >> marry a > >> blind woman, but he wasn't thinking he wanted anyone else to > have her, > >> either), and discovered that she was loathe to use her cane while > >> walkingaround campus. Never mind that she was practically killed > >> by bikers, > >> skaters, and general jostling several times a week. She didn't > >> want the > >> cane because it meant people would process her as "blind person," > >> steeraround her, and never engage with her on any other level. In > >> the apartment > >> just to south of me lived John, who had cerebral palsy. I learned > >> to keep > >> my apartment stocked with straws so I could offer him a drink when > >> he came > >> over, since drinking directly from a glass or can was tough for > >> him. John > >> couldn't leave the outward marks of CP at home, and it constantly > >> frustratedhim. Girls were a particular source of concern. Like > >> Lisa, he was very > >> generous with me. I'd never had close friends with disabilities > >> before, and > >> here, quite suddenly, I was flanked by them. They let me ask all > >> sorts of > >> questions. John and I had long discussions about the challenges of > >> dating.He was a romantic-writing poetry, buying flowers, falling > >> hard and fast. We > >> wondered, together, about how his body complicated things. Coming > >> on too > >> strong? He figured he came on too strong for some women just by > >> being.Just a year or so later, one of my own students, Barbara, > >> was blind. No > >> special viewing devices for her, since the blindness was total. > >> Our whole > >> class was somehow defined by her rhythms, which were assertive, but > >> kind,and very comfortable (largely a magic of her making). The > >> clicking of her > >> slate and stylus became part of our world, we all learned (even > >> "why would I > >> touch you when I don't even *know* you?" me) to offer our arms with > >> easewhen it came time for Barb to navigate the busy halls of the > >> Englishbuilding, and workshop days meant we all read aloud to each > >> other, so the > >> hum was constant. Barb wrote the most beautiful, detailed visual > >> descriptions. She always brought her slate and stylus to > conference>> sessions, too, and took notes as we talked. All of > these generous > >> folks who > >> let me learn from them how to be easy with them (and hard on > them, and > >> ticked at them, and just *with* them, generally) made it possible > >> for me to > >> be very comfortable with managing the challenges and joys of > >> working with > >> many later students who came bearing all sorts of bodily and > emotional>> difference: blindness, CP, deafness, brain damage, > epilepsy,>> depression,histories of abuse. > >> > >> > >> > >> --Suddenly, I'm remembering the bodies of teachers I loved. One > very>> overweight lit prof never, ever moved from the desk. She'd > hike>> herselfonto that scarred old block of wood at the front of the > >> classroom as the > >> period began, and sit there the whole time. And yet, I have this > >> impressionof grace when I think of the way she moved around in text > >> and in ideas, and > >> I remember feeling breathless and exhilarated by keeping up with > her.>> Then, there was the elfin film professor, very thin and > short. He > >> used to > >> smoke and pace across the room-this little engine of energy, > >> puffing away. > >> And he'd fill the board with words and arrows and charts and > >> drawings that > >> marked and moved our discussion along. I could never sleep > after his > >> classes. They left me wired and wanting to read, write, talk, > >> think *right > >> now.* Oh, oh-and the high school English teacher, Mrs. B. She was > >> allpleated wool skirts and cardigans, and she always had a line of > >> chalk dust > >> across her back, right where she leaned against the chalk tray when > >> she was > >> at the board. Very soft-spoken. When I think of her, now, it > >> seems to me > >> that her great and rare talent consisted mostly of setting us in > >> motion and > >> then getting out of the way. I remember just writing and > writing and > >> reading and reading and writing some more, for her, but I never > >> rememberfeeling at all pressured about it. Her space was quiet and > >> absorbing. > >> > >> > >> > >> --Then, too, the bodies of teachers I didn't love so much. The > >> prim and > >> prissy Shakespeare prof who drew a large and apparently perfect > >> circle on > >> the board on day one, then turned to us and told us that the > >> ability to draw > >> a perfect circle was the sign of a rare and prodigious intelligence > >> was one > >> teacher I instantly and irreversibly hated-even more so more > >> because, of > >> course, I couldn't resist trying the circle thing, and instantly > >> discoveringthat without a compass, my circle making skills were > >> iffy, at best. Then, > >> there was the Econ prof who was simply boring. Somehow, I think > >> beige and > >> taupe when I think of him, though I can't really remember what he > >> wore. I > >> actually once got up, gathered my things, and walked out of that > >> class and > >> into the exhilarating spring sunshine (the sort of rudeness I > >> hardly ever > >> allow myself), simply because I couldn't take the monotone (and, > >> apparently,the monochrome) drone of him for one more instant. > >> Then, there was the Soc. > >> Prof who was persnickety as can be. Very smart, kind of funny, > >> but really > >> not at all nice. I remember watching the cowlick at his crown > >> bounce as he > >> paced the room. > >> > >> > >> > >> ---Random grad school memory: Lit prof known for flirting > >> outrageously (and > >> sometimes, more) with female students. Creep. But, I had one > >> friend with > >> whom he never, ever flirted, and she was deeply bummed about > this. I > >> avoided his courses, so I was a bit at a loss. She *wanted* the > >> creep to be > >> creepy to her? Sigh. Yes. She wanted to know that she, too, was > >> worthy of > >> his creepiness. But she was not thin, not pretty in the way he was > >> drawnto, and entirely (as I told her, again and again) too smart > >> and too good and > >> far too beautiful for him, anyway. I never read Blake without > >> thinking of > >> her. > >> > >> > >> > >> --Random teaching memories: The young women who approached me very > >> solemnlyat the end of class one day, asked me to raise my arm, > >> withdrew a pair of > >> manicure scissors from her purse, and proceeded very gently to cut > >> the tag > >> that was hanging there. New jacket. My little glow of pleasure > >> about this > >> new thing-I was feeling uncommonly happy about the color and the > >> fabric and > >> the feel of it-wasn't at all undone by the gesture. Not many > >> people could > >> have been that tenderly respectful. Another young woman who > >> approached at > >> the end of class one day to thump our book onto the desk, and > >> declare "this > >> book doesn't include me." And so it didn't. She explained why, > >> and she was > >> right. A young man who wore a tee shirts with drawings of serial > >> killers on > >> them to class, who wanted to shake some reaction out of his > >> classmates in > >> this manner, and who did. Interesting negotiations had to go on to > >> preventthat one from blowing up. Another young man who wore lots > >> of black eye > >> makeup, lots of black clothing, lots of dangly earrings, and who > >> was very > >> quiet, very sensitive, a poet really. When I mentioned, one > day, how > >> talented I thought he was, he said that it wasn't until college > that>> teachers ever said this wondrous thing to him or about him. > Before>> that, he > >> felt that he was always pretty immediately sized up and put into > >> the trouble > >> category. Oh, and so many more lessons delivered skillfully from > >> smartstudents to a teacher who learned from them that's it's best > >> to remember > >> that there's always something new to learn about how to be a good > >> teacher to > >> them. > >> > >> > >> > >> --Hmm, and then I was thinking, all in response to this module, of > >> how very > >> different various sections of the same course can be. One > >> semester, there > >> were two research writing courses. One group was pretty quiet, > very>> workmanlike, not that into conversation or debate, but very > solemnly>> absorbed. They consistently handed in amazing work, and > basically>> kickedbutt all the way. They were a pleasure, all > around. Another > >> group was > >> challenging, raucous at times, questioned every little thing, and > >> cracked me > >> up on a regular basis. Their writing, on the whole, wasn't > quite as > >> good-collectively, they had further to go--but the engagement level > >> was very > >> high. I would sometimes look at them in mock indignation and > >> declare that I > >> was lucky I could ever get a darned word in edgewise, with them. > >> Lots of > >> the students in this section were on their second or third time > >> through the > >> course. We decided, right off, that this would simply have to > be it: > >> they'd make it even if it killed them-or me-and we allowed as to > >> how it just > >> might hurt a little bit, at times, but we'd just go on ahead and > do it > >> together, anyway, and be glad of the chance to. Most of them (not > >> all, but > >> most) really did pass. Toward the end, they kicked me out of > the room > >> during the last ten or fifteen minutes of class, one day. That had > >> neverhappened before, but there it was: "Mrs. Fitch, you have to > >> leave now. We > >> need to talk without you. Shoo." So, I left, wondering what > they were > >> plotting. Might have been anything from a mutiny to a party, with > >> thatgroup. Turned out, they were plotting flowers. A huge bouquet > >> for me on > >> the first day of the last week. They had pooled their money, > and also > >> pooled their garden resources. There were hothouse flowers, > >> wildflowers,and heavy branches of blossoms cut from trees and > >> shrubs in their yards (and > >> maybe their neighbors yards, too). It was a huge and crazy > bouquet- > >> andexactly the sort of composition that best reflected their > >> spirit. I loved > >> it, and them. > >> > >> > >> > >> Oh, and there's so much more: the athleticism of teaching, > >> especially in a > >> computer lab setting; the maturing of both body and spirit over > >> time, and > >> how this impacts teaching; the various languages (Spanish, > Vietnamese,>> Russian, and countless others, plus ASL, gang signs, > slang, tattoos, > >> costume, hair) students bring to the project of writing and > >> learning with > >> them; the language of fear and frustration in the classroom, as it > >> plays out > >> on every level; the cultural differences when it comes to virtually > >> everything, including how marriage, family, and success (all things > >> thatmatter for the project of learning) get defined. > >> > >> > >> > >> Well, no big insight to offer, but many seemingly disparate things > >> to ponder > >> and to continue to draw together, and for that I thank you. > >> > >> > >> > >> Kathy > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> _____ > >> > >> From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > >> [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of > >> StephenRuffus > >> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2007 3:19 PM > >> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >> Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] NEW MODULE > >> > >> > >> > >> Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General > >> Educationcommittee at my school proposed that courses satisfying > >> the college's > >> diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more about > >> howstudents negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital > >> environments. It > >> seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. > >> > >> > >> > >> > > > > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > > Department of English > > Florida State University > > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > > P. O. Box 3061580 > > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > > 850.644.3530 (O) > > 850.644.0811 (F) > > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > > > > > > --__--__-- > > > > Message: 2 > > From: Kristie Fleckenstein > > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 17:35:29 -0500 > > Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > > Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > > > Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received your post. I found > it at the > > end of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting. > > > > Here's what you wrote. > > > > Kristie‚s post brings something to mind. Recently, the General > Education> committee at my school proposed that courses satisfying > the college‚s > > diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more > about how > > students negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital > environments. It > > seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. > > > > Here's my response. > > > > I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment question, > and one we > > need to keep reminding ourselves to ask. > > > > It reminds me of Coco Fusco‚s work in _The Bodies that Were Not > Ours_.> (Fusco's a performance artist at Columbia U, and I've just > discovered her > > work.) She‚s concerned that digital technologies too easily lead to > > disembodiment in a couple ways. First, we users tend to forget > that all that > > hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low wage > assemble-line > > factory (she did 3 years of research in the factories along the > Mexican> border). AND we tend to assume that bodies don‚t matter > on line (back to the > > New Yorker cartoonËœthe one with the two dogs, one at a computer > terminal who > > tells the other one that no one knows you‚re a dog online). > Fusco wants to > > keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do matter, especially online. > > > > It seems as if your school has gotten this message. So how do we > answer that > > question? > > > > I know there are folks who are looking at the way in which we > carry real world > > biases with us into virtual world spaces. But does anyone on the > list know of > > research that looks at the way our minority students configure > themselves in > > online environments? And, if not, how do we go about getting > answers to these > > questions? > > > > Ideas? > > > > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > > Department of English > > Florida State University > > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > > P. O. Box 3061580 > > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > > 850.644.3530 (O) > > 850.644.0811 (F) > > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > > > > > > --__--__-- > > > > Message: 3 > > From: "Susan Miller-Cochran" > > To: > > Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > > Date: Sun, 25 Nov 2007 21:32:55 -0500 > > Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > > > Kristie, > > > > Thank you for such a marvelous, thought-provoking module. In the > spirit of > > sharing anecdotal evidence of (dis)embodied writing, I started > thinking> about some of my own teaching practices...perhaps with a > bit of chagrin. I > > thought about how our bodies, or how our bodies are perceived by > others, can > > silence us and limit the ways in which we "can" use language. And > I thought > > of the discussions I have had with my students about developing > ethos in an > > argument--how we can/'t make certain arguments because of who we > are or how > > our bodies are represented....discussions that often end with > statements> like, "You might have trouble making that argument." > What I'm often saying > > to students, without directly saying it, is "You might have > trouble making > > that argument because of how you are seen by others." I don't > want to say > > that out loud, but that's often what I mean. And I'm embarrassed > to admit > > it. > > > > I'm not sure where my thoughts are going with this, but you've > given me > > cause to rethink the ways that I approach these kinds of > discussions with my > > students. > > > > Enough of my rambling for now. :) > > > > Susan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > > [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of > Kristie> Fleckenstein > > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:35 PM > > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > > > > Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received your post. I found > it at the > > end of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting. > > > > Here's what you wrote. > > > > Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General > Education> committee at my school proposed that courses satisfying > the college's > > diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more > about how > > students negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital > environments. It > > seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. > > > > Here's my response. > > > > I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment question, > and one we > > need to keep reminding ourselves to ask. > > > > It reminds me of Coco Fusco's work in _The Bodies that Were Not > Ours_.> (Fusco's a performance artist at Columbia U, and I've just > discovered her > > work.) She's concerned that digital technologies too easily lead to > > disembodiment in a couple ways. First, we users tend to forget > that all > > that hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low wage > > assemble-line factory (she did 3 years of research in the > factories along > > the Mexican border). AND we tend to assume that bodies don't > matter on line > > (back to the New Yorker cartoon-the one with the two dogs, one at > a computer > > terminal who tells the other one that no one knows you're a dog > online).> Fusco wants to keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do > matter, especially > > online. > > > > It seems as if your school has gotten this message. So how do we > answer> that question? > > > > I know there are folks who are looking at the way in which we > carry real > > world biases with us into virtual world spaces. But does anyone > on the list > > know of research that looks at the way our minority students > configure> themselves in online environments? And, if not, how do > we go about getting > > answers to these questions? > > > > Ideas? > > > > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > > Department of English > > Florida State University > > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > > P. O. Box 3061580 > > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > > 850.644.3530 (O) > > 850.644.0811 (F) > > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com> > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition> > > To unsubscribe, please visit > > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > update> your information. > > > > > > > > > > --__--__-- > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com> > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition> > > > > End of Teaching_Composition Digest > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > update your information. > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor Department of English Florida State University 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way P. O. Box 3061580 Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 850.644.3530 (O) 850.644.0811 (F) kfleckenstein@fsu.edu From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Tue Nov 27 13:06:20 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Chris Anson) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:06:20 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: responses to Steve In-Reply-To: <90CB333F-FDD7-4BC2-9247-3FD128C2E113@mac.com> References: <200711261701.lAQH11pH013264@localhost.eppg.com> <90CB333F-FDD7-4BC2-9247-3FD128C2E113@mac.com> Message-ID: <73572F49-85F2-4528-881C-8E4EAB70F030@ncsu.edu> --Apple-Mail-124-965732129 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit We could do this, Kris--someone would have to save the refs. while the module is running, and then we could add them as a resource link to the module before it's archived at the M-H site. Great idea! Chris > >> >> On Nov 27, 2007, at 5:04 AM, Kristie Fleckenstein wrote: >> >>> Wonderful, Rebecca. I'll follow up on these. >>> >>> I wonder if we could collect and post on the McGraw Hill website >>> all these references that people share. Has this been done in the >>> past? It would make a great reading list for all of us struggling >>> with these issues. >>> >>> One of the nice things about this very focused listserv is that we >>> can get a "collective mind" kind of phenomenon going. The more >>> minds the better! >>> >>> Kris >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Rebecca Ingalls >>> Date: Monday, November 26, 2007 4:04 pm >>> Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: responses to Steve >>> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >>> >>>> >> >> -- Chris M. Anson [Web site] University Distinguished Professor Director, Campus Writing & Speaking Program Box 8105, North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC 27695-8105 (919) 513-4080 --Apple-Mail-124-965732129 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We could do this, Kris--someone = would have to save the refs. while the module is running, and then we = could add them as a resource link to the module before it's archived at = the M-H site. Great idea!

Chris


Wonderful, = Rebecca.  I'll follow up on these.  

I wonder if we = could collect and post on the McGraw Hill website all these references = that people share.  Has this been done in the past?  It would = make a great reading list for all of us struggling with these = issues.

One of the nice things about this very focused listserv = is that we can get a "collective mind" kind of phenomenon going. =  The more minds the better!

Kris

----- Original = Message -----
From: Rebecca Ingalls <ringalls@UT.EDU>
Date: Monday, = November 26, 2007 4:04 pm
Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: = responses to Steve
To: teaching_composition= @mailman.eppg.com



[Web = site]
University Distinguished = Professor
Director, Campus Writing = & Speaking Program
Box 8105, North = Carolina State University 
Raleigh, NC  = 27695-8105 
(919) 513-4080


=

= --Apple-Mail-124-965732129-- From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Tue Nov 27 13:47:25 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Glenn Blalock) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 07:47:25 -0600 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: responses to Steve In-Reply-To: <73572F49-85F2-4528-881C-8E4EAB70F030@ncsu.edu> References: <200711261701.lAQH11pH013264@localhost.eppg.com> <90CB333F-FDD7-4BC2-9247-3FD128C2E113@mac.com> <73572F49-85F2-4528-881C-8E4EAB70F030@ncsu.edu> Message-ID: I am collecting these resources to add to CompFAQs, so I can share that list to be published @ McGraw-Hill, too. We can add to the CompFAQs list after this module ends, as well. Glenn On 11/27/07, Chris Anson wrote: > We could do this, Kris--someone would have to save the refs. while the > module is running, and then we could add them as a resource link to > the module before it's archived at the M-H site. Great idea! > > Chris > > > > > > >> > >> On Nov 27, 2007, at 5:04 AM, Kristie Fleckenstein wrote: > >> > >>> Wonderful, Rebecca. I'll follow up on these. > >>> > >>> I wonder if we could collect and post on the McGraw Hill website > >>> all these references that people share. Has this been done in the > >>> past? It would make a great reading list for all of us struggling > >>> with these issues. > >>> > >>> One of the nice things about this very focused listserv is that we > >>> can get a "collective mind" kind of phenomenon going. The more > >>> minds the better! > >>> > >>> Kris > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: Rebecca Ingalls > >>> Date: Monday, November 26, 2007 4:04 pm > >>> Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: responses to Steve > >>> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >>> > >>>> > >> > >> > > > > -- > Chris M. Anson [Web site] > University Distinguished Professor > Director, Campus Writing & Speaking Program > Box 8105, North Carolina State University > Raleigh, NC 27695-8105 > (919) 513-4080 > > > > From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Tue Nov 27 14:19:48 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Chris Anson) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 09:19:48 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: responses to Steve In-Reply-To: References: <200711261701.lAQH11pH013264@localhost.eppg.com> <90CB333F-FDD7-4BC2-9247-3FD128C2E113@mac.com> <73572F49-85F2-4528-881C-8E4EAB70F030@ncsu.edu> Message-ID: <5EFB4A9C-B871-4ADD-AFF9-8B262CE8EC1B@ncsu.edu> --Apple-Mail-1-970140152 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Great! Thanks, Glenn. On Nov 27, 2007, at 8:47 AM, Glenn Blalock wrote: > I am collecting these resources to add to CompFAQs, so I can share > that list to be published @ McGraw-Hill, too. > > We can add to the CompFAQs list after this module ends, as well. > > Glenn > > On 11/27/07, Chris Anson wrote: >> We could do this, Kris--someone would have to save the refs. while >> the >> module is running, and then we could add them as a resource link to >> the module before it's archived at the M-H site. Great idea! >> >> Chris >> >> >>> >> >>>> >>>> On Nov 27, 2007, at 5:04 AM, Kristie Fleckenstein wrote: >>>> >>>>> Wonderful, Rebecca. I'll follow up on these. >>>>> >>>>> I wonder if we could collect and post on the McGraw Hill website >>>>> all these references that people share. Has this been done in the >>>>> past? It would make a great reading list for all of us struggling >>>>> with these issues. >>>>> >>>>> One of the nice things about this very focused listserv is that we >>>>> can get a "collective mind" kind of phenomenon going. The more >>>>> minds the better! >>>>> >>>>> Kris >>>>> >>>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>>> From: Rebecca Ingalls >>>>> Date: Monday, November 26, 2007 4:04 pm >>>>> Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: responses to Steve >>>>> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >>>>> >>>>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Chris M. Anson [Web site] >> University Distinguished Professor >> Director, Campus Writing & Speaking Program >> Box 8105, North Carolina State University >> Raleigh, NC 27695-8105 >> (919) 513-4080 >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > and update your information. -- Chris M. Anson [Web site] University Distinguished Professor Director, Campus Writing & Speaking Program Box 8105, North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC 27695-8105 (919) 513-4080 --Apple-Mail-1-970140152 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Great! Thanks, Glenn.


On Nov 27, = 2007, at 8:47 AM, Glenn Blalock wrote:

I am = collecting these resources to add to CompFAQs, so I can share
that = list to be published @ McGraw-Hill, too.

We can add to the = CompFAQs list after this module ends, as well.

Glenn

On = 11/27/07, Chris Anson <chris_anson@ncsu.edu> = wrote:
We could do this, Kris--someone = would have to save the refs. while the
module is running, and then we could add them as a = resource link to
the module = before it's archived at the M-H site. Great = idea!

Chris





On Nov = 27, 2007, at 5:04 AM, Kristie Fleckenstein = wrote:

Wonderful, Rebecca.  I'll = follow up on = these.

I wonder if we could collect and = post on the McGraw Hill = website
all these references that people = share.  Has this been done in = the
past?  It would make a = great reading list for all of us = struggling
with these = issues.

One of the nice things about = this very focused listserv is that = we
can get a "collective mind" kind = of phenomenon going.  The = more
minds the = better!

Kris
=

----- Original Message = -----
From: Rebecca Ingalls <ringalls@UT.EDU>
Date: = Monday, November 26, 2007 4:04 = pm
Subject: [Teaching_Composition] = Re: responses to = Steve
To: teaching_composition= @mailman.eppg.com







--
Chris M. = Anson [Web site]
University = Distinguished Professor
Director, Campus Writing & Speaking = Program
Box 8105, North = Carolina State University
Raleigh, NC  27695-8105
(919) 513-4080




___________________________________________= ____
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= --Apple-Mail-1-970140152-- From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Tue Nov 27 15:30:54 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Doug Downs) Date: Tue, 27 Nov 2007 08:30:54 -0700 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve In-Reply-To: References: <000601c82fd4$a72f5b50$5f01a8c0@ENGVAIO> Message-ID: <474BD5CA.3821.001A.0@uvsc.edu> Well put, Kris. It only took the Roman Catholic Church 'til this century to apologize for believing Aristotle over Galileo on astronomy. I don't hear enough rhetoricians admit that he was simply, flatly wrong about ethos. Or, perhaps, that he was speaking of how he *wished* it were rather than how it *is*. In the flesh and blood world, everything we know about the rhetor -- not simply the rhetor as they appear in their text or, more broadly, in the delivery of their text, matters. Of course, it's easier to see that, maybe, in a visual and electronic world than it was in a world where almost all rhetoric took place in-person and from memory. Usually we can think about ethos as a matter of identification with image -- if I the rhetor resemble (particularly in values and ways of being) you the audience, I likely have high ethos. What's interesting about "right" bodies and ethos is that rather than identification with how the audience *is*, ethos may derive from identification with what the audience *wants*. . . . But then, of course, ethos is always derived from being what the audience wishes it were rather than what it necessarily is. Cheers -- Doug Dr. Doug Downs Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric Writing Program Chair Dept. of English and Literature Utah Valley State College 800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 LA 126g 801-863-8572 >>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" 11/27/2007 2:42 AM >>> You know, tho', Susan, even Aristotelian ethos had a material aspect, one related to the body through eunoia, or friendliness. Regardless of A's saying that good character is created only through the words of a speech, he also points to the importance of creating a physical appearance that establishes friendliness. Even delivery has a role to play in ethos. So I don't think you're off the mark to consider bodies as part of our rhetorical toolbox. Maybe the problem is that bodies matter, but that bodies matter in potentially negative and pejorative ways; i.e., because you do not possess the "right" body, you can't make that argument (or you can't make that argument persuasively). Perhaps this cultural reality constitutes another important area of critical engagement for our students and for us as teachers? Kris ----- Original Message ----- From: Susan Miller-Cochran Date: Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:41 pm Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > Kristie, > > Thank you for such a marvelous, thought-provoking module. In the > spirit of > sharing anecdotal evidence of (dis)embodied writing, I started > thinkingabout some of my own teaching practices...perhaps with a > bit of chagrin. I > thought about how our bodies, or how our bodies are perceived by > others, can > silence us and limit the ways in which we "can" use language. And I > thoughtof the discussions I have had with my students about > developing ethos in an > argument--how we can/'t make certain arguments because of who we > are or how > our bodies are represented....discussions that often end with > statementslike, "You might have trouble making that argument." What > I'm often saying > to students, without directly saying it, is "You might have trouble > makingthat argument because of how you are seen by others." I don't > want to say > that out loud, but that's often what I mean. And I'm embarrassed to > admitit. > > I'm not sure where my thoughts are going with this, but you've > given me > cause to rethink the ways that I approach these kinds of > discussions with my > students. > > Enough of my rambling for now. :) > > Susan > > -----Original Message----- > From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of > KristieFleckenstein > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:35 PM > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > > Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received your post. I found > it at the > end of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting. > > Here's what you wrote. > > Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General > Educationcommittee at my school proposed that courses satisfying > the college's > diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more about > howstudents negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital > environments. It > seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. > > Here's my response. > > I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment question, and > one we > need to keep reminding ourselves to ask. > > It reminds me of Coco Fusco's work in _The Bodies that Were Not Ours_. > (Fusco's a performance artist at Columbia U, and I've just > discovered her > work.) She's concerned that digital technologies too easily lead to > disembodiment in a couple ways. First, we users tend to forget > that all > that hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low wage > assemble-line factory (she did 3 years of research in the factories > alongthe Mexican border). AND we tend to assume that bodies don't > matter on line > (back to the New Yorker cartoon-the one with the two dogs, one at a > computerterminal who tells the other one that no one knows you're a > dog online). > Fusco wants to keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do matter, > especiallyonline. > > It seems as if your school has gotten this message. So how do we > answerthat question? > > I know there are folks who are looking at the way in which we carry > realworld biases with us into virtual world spaces. But does > anyone on the list > know of research that looks at the way our minority students configure > themselves in online environments? And, if not, how do we go about > gettinganswers to these questions? > > Ideas? > > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > Department of English > Florida State University > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > P. O. Box 3061580 > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > 850.644.3530 (O) > 850.644.0811 (F) > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > updateyour information. > > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > update your information. > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor Department of English Florida State University 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way P. O. Box 3061580 Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 850.644.3530 (O) 850.644.0811 (F) kfleckenstein@fsu.edu _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition To unsubscribe, please visit http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and update your information. From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Wed Nov 28 11:45:10 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Kristie Fleckenstein) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 06:45:10 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve In-Reply-To: <474BD5CA.3821.001A.0@uvsc.edu> References: <000601c82fd4$a72f5b50$5f01a8c0@ENGVAIO> <474BD5CA.3821.001A.0@uvsc.edu> Message-ID: So persuasion is a kind of wish fulfillment? Instead of the rhetor inventing the audience, the audience invents the rhetor (and in the process become what they imagine?). Hoot! Now that has some interesting possibilities as a thought experiment, esp. when we switch it to the class and consider the teacher as rhetor and the students as audience. What's the wish students want fulfilled and how do they "invent" the teacher? I suspect that answers to those questions will shift as students move through the public school system. I also suspect that the "embodied" teaching experiences of teachers in the K-3 classrooms are different from those in the 4-6 classrooms (and different yet again from the 7-8, 9-12 classrooms). Maybe because the "wishes" are different? And what happens when that wish fulfillment is stymied by the teacher's body? For instance, I just had a grad student in my office yesterday chatting about a variety of things. And out of the blue (or what seemed to me the blue), she asked me if my height ever caused me problems in the classroom (I'm 5' 2"). She said she thought her students saw her as short (she's 5') and thus without authority. Does that mean, then, that students who wish an "authority" teacher might be unable to fulfill that wish with a teacher who does not physically meet their vision of authority? Saying something like, "Oh, that teacher doesn't have an "authority" body?" Or might they learn to fulfill that wish according to other criteria? Susan's ethos question and your response, Doug, were also in the back of my head as I read through NCTE's Inbox this morning, esp. the section on the NCTE blogs...the ones where participants posted responses to NCTE in NYC? Traci Gardner's response blog addressed the question of teachers blogging: should teachers be blogging and/or participating on social networking sites? I guess some school systems are urging teachers to avoid both. Doesn't it seem as if part of the concern stems from issues of embodiment--life outside of school, life as something other than a talking head? (I remember when I was in grade school--I saw my second grade teacher in the grocery store, and I was shocked. What? Teachers buy food?) Fascinating and important, all of this. Kris ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Downs Date: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:57 am Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > Well put, Kris. It only took the Roman Catholic Church 'til this > century to apologize for believing Aristotle over Galileo on > astronomy. > I don't hear enough rhetoricians admit that he was simply, flatly > wrongabout ethos. Or, perhaps, that he was speaking of how he > *wished* it > were rather than how it *is*. In the flesh and blood world, > everythingwe know about the rhetor -- not simply the rhetor as they > appear in > their text or, more broadly, in the delivery of their text, > matters. > > Of course, it's easier to see that, maybe, in a visual and electronic > world than it was in a world where almost all rhetoric took place > in-person and from memory. > > Usually we can think about ethos as a matter of identification with > image -- if I the rhetor resemble (particularly in values and ways of > being) you the audience, I likely have high ethos. What's interesting > about "right" bodies and ethos is that rather than identification with > how the audience *is*, ethos may derive from identification with what > the audience *wants*. . . . But then, of course, ethos is always > derived from being what the audience wishes it were rather than > what it > necessarily is. > > Cheers -- > Doug > > > Dr. Doug Downs > Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric > Writing Program Chair > Dept. of English and Literature > Utah Valley State College > 800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 > LA 126g > 801-863-8572 > > > >>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" 11/27/2007 2:42 AM > >>> > You know, tho', Susan, even Aristotelian ethos had a material aspect, > one related to the body through eunoia, or friendliness. > Regardless of > A's saying that good character is created only through the words of a > speech, he also points to the importance of creating a physical > appearance that establishes friendliness. Even delivery has a role to > play in ethos. > > So I don't think you're off the mark to consider bodies as part of our > rhetorical toolbox. > > Maybe the problem is that bodies matter, but that bodies matter in > potentially negative and pejorative ways; i.e., because you do not > possess the "right" body, you can't make that argument (or you can't > make that argument persuasively). > > Perhaps this cultural reality constitutes another important area of > critical engagement for our students and for us as teachers? > > Kris > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Susan Miller-Cochran > Date: Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:41 pm > Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > > Kristie, > > > > Thank you for such a marvelous, thought-provoking module. In the > > spirit of > > sharing anecdotal evidence of (dis)embodied writing, I started > > thinkingabout some of my own teaching practices...perhaps with a > > bit of chagrin. I > > thought about how our bodies, or how our bodies are perceived by > > others, can > > silence us and limit the ways in which we "can" use language. And > I > > thoughtof the discussions I have had with my students about > > developing ethos in an > > argument--how we can/'t make certain arguments because of who we > > are or how > > our bodies are represented....discussions that often end with > > statementslike, "You might have trouble making that argument." > What > > I'm often saying > > to students, without directly saying it, is "You might have > trouble > > makingthat argument because of how you are seen by others." I > don't > > want to say > > that out loud, but that's often what I mean. And I'm embarrassed > to > > admitit. > > > > I'm not sure where my thoughts are going with this, but you've > > given me > > cause to rethink the ways that I approach these kinds of > > discussions with my > > students. > > > > Enough of my rambling for now. :) > > > > Susan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > > [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of > > KristieFleckenstein > > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:35 PM > > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > > > > Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received your post. I found > > it at the > > end of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting. > > > > Here's what you wrote. > > > > Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General > > Educationcommittee at my school proposed that courses satisfying > > the college's > > diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more > about > > howstudents negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital > > environments. It > > seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. > > > > Here's my response. > > > > I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment question, > and > > one we > > need to keep reminding ourselves to ask. > > > > It reminds me of Coco Fusco's work in _The Bodies that Were Not > Ours_. > > (Fusco's a performance artist at Columbia U, and I've just > > discovered her > > work.) She's concerned that digital technologies too easily lead to > > disembodiment in a couple ways. First, we users tend to forget > > that all > > that hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low wage > > assemble-line factory (she did 3 years of research in the > factories > > alongthe Mexican border). AND we tend to assume that bodies > don't > > matter on line > > (back to the New Yorker cartoon-the one with the two dogs, one at > a > > computerterminal who tells the other one that no one knows you're > a > > dog online). > > Fusco wants to keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do matter, > > especiallyonline. > > > > It seems as if your school has gotten this message. So how do we > > answerthat question? > > > > I know there are folks who are looking at the way in which we > carry > > realworld biases with us into virtual world spaces. But does > > anyone on the list > > know of research that looks at the way our minority students > configure > > themselves in online environments? And, if not, how do we go > about > > gettinganswers to these questions? > > > > Ideas? > > > > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > > Department of English > > Florida State University > > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > > P. O. Box 3061580 > > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > > 850.644.3530 (O) > > 850.644.0811 (F) > > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Teaching_Composition maillist - > > > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > > > > To unsubscribe, please visit > > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > > updateyour information. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Teaching_Composition maillist - > > > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > > > > To unsubscribe, please visit > > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > > update your information. > > > > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > Department of English > Florida State University > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > P. O. Box 3061580 > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > 850.644.3530 (O) > 850.644.0811 (F) > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > update your information. > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > update your information. > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor Department of English Florida State University 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way P. O. Box 3061580 Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 850.644.3530 (O) 850.644.0811 (F) kfleckenstein@fsu.edu From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Wed Nov 28 13:54:12 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Doug Downs) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 06:54:12 -0700 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve Message-ID: <474D126C0200001A0002DB16@mail-out.email.uvsc.edu> This reminds me of something else we often have to work really hard on with students -- though maybe it just spins it back ground to your original points, Kris -- helping students see the bodies behind texts. Texts are people talking, ultimately, and it changes the way students imagine the text to imagine ("flesh out"?) the people behind them. In my Comp II classes, I have students read Carol Berkenkotter's long-ago C's article following Donald Murray through his invention process. The piece ends with a reflection by Murray himself (an early example of a research design allowing the "subject" to speak back to the researcher's story) -- and it really bends students' perspectives. They also read Murray's piece "All Writing is Autobiography," and have the double experience both of Murray talking about himself and (now) reading a eulogy written by one of his longtime proteges at the Boston Globe. >From experiences like that -- getting students to pay attention to *how* they "embody" -- or don't -- the writers of their texts, we work out to other texts where it's harder to imagine the writer in the flesh. (It helps to have had lunch with the writers, so you can tell students what they eat.) So I love the thinking you're doing here about audience inventing rhetor (rhetor-audience-invoked?) . . . and who has to have what bodies to do which things . . . and how at one level, the entire point of writing has always been to *disembody* the writer, so their words can be where they are not -- and yet good blogging software allows photo uploads (not to mention Facebook/etc.) and there is Haas and Takayoshi's developing research on how emoticons in chat are used as much to re-embody the writer (return them lost facial gesture) as to clarify meaning. . . . For a guy who's too much in his head, this is kinda mindbending . . . Cheers -- Doug Dr. Doug Downs Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric Writing Program Coordinator Dept. of English and Literature Utah Valley State College 800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 LA 126g 801-863-8572 >>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" 11/28/07 4:45 AM >>> So persuasion is a kind of wish fulfillment? Instead of the rhetor inventing the audience, the audience invents the rhetor (and in the process become what they imagine?). Hoot! Now that has some interesting possibilities as a thought experiment, esp. when we switch it to the class and consider the teacher as rhetor and the students as audience. What's the wish students want fulfilled and how do they "invent" the teacher? I suspect that answers to those questions will shift as students move through the public school system. I also suspect that the "embodied" teaching experiences of teachers in the K-3 classrooms are different from those in the 4-6 classrooms (and different yet again from the 7-8, 9-12 classrooms). Maybe because the "wishes" are different? And what happens when that wish fulfillment is stymied by the teacher's body? For instance, I just had a grad student in my office yesterday chatting about a variety of things. And out of the blue (or what seemed to me the blue), she asked me if my height ever caused me problems in the classroom (I'm 5' 2"). She said she thought her students saw her as short (she's 5') and thus without authority. Does that mean, then, that students who wish an "authority" teacher might be unable to fulfill that wish with a teacher who does not physically meet their vision of authority? Saying something like, "Oh, that teacher doesn't have an "authority" body?" Or might they learn to fulfill that wish according to other criteria? Susan's ethos question and your response, Doug, were also in the back of my head as I read through NCTE's Inbox this morning, esp. the section on the NCTE blogs...the ones where participants posted responses to NCTE in NYC? Traci Gardner's response blog addressed the question of teachers blogging: should teachers be blogging and/or participating on social networking sites? I guess some school systems are urging teachers to avoid both. Doesn't it seem as if part of the concern stems from issues of embodiment--life outside of school, life as something other than a talking head? (I remember when I was in grade school--I saw my second grade teacher in the grocery store, and I was shocked. What? Teachers buy food?) Fascinating and important, all of this. Kris ----- Original Message ----- From: Doug Downs Date: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:57 am Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > Well put, Kris. It only took the Roman Catholic Church 'til this > century to apologize for believing Aristotle over Galileo on > astronomy. > I don't hear enough rhetoricians admit that he was simply, flatly > wrongabout ethos. Or, perhaps, that he was speaking of how he > *wished* it > were rather than how it *is*. In the flesh and blood world, > everythingwe know about the rhetor -- not simply the rhetor as they > appear in > their text or, more broadly, in the delivery of their text, > matters. > > Of course, it's easier to see that, maybe, in a visual and electronic > world than it was in a world where almost all rhetoric took place > in-person and from memory. > > Usually we can think about ethos as a matter of identification with > image -- if I the rhetor resemble (particularly in values and ways of > being) you the audience, I likely have high ethos. What's interesting > about "right" bodies and ethos is that rather than identification with > how the audience *is*, ethos may derive from identification with what > the audience *wants*. . . . But then, of course, ethos is always > derived from being what the audience wishes it were rather than > what it > necessarily is. > > Cheers -- > Doug > > > Dr. Doug Downs > Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric > Writing Program Chair > Dept. of English and Literature > Utah Valley State College > 800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 > LA 126g > 801-863-8572 > > > >>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" 11/27/2007 2:42 AM > >>> > You know, tho', Susan, even Aristotelian ethos had a material aspect, > one related to the body through eunoia, or friendliness. > Regardless of > A's saying that good character is created only through the words of a > speech, he also points to the importance of creating a physical > appearance that establishes friendliness. Even delivery has a role to > play in ethos. > > So I don't think you're off the mark to consider bodies as part of our > rhetorical toolbox. > > Maybe the problem is that bodies matter, but that bodies matter in > potentially negative and pejorative ways; i.e., because you do not > possess the "right" body, you can't make that argument (or you can't > make that argument persuasively). > > Perhaps this cultural reality constitutes another important area of > critical engagement for our students and for us as teachers? > > Kris > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Susan Miller-Cochran > Date: Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:41 pm > Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > > Kristie, > > > > Thank you for such a marvelous, thought-provoking module. In the > > spirit of > > sharing anecdotal evidence of (dis)embodied writing, I started > > thinkingabout some of my own teaching practices...perhaps with a > > bit of chagrin. I > > thought about how our bodies, or how our bodies are perceived by > > others, can > > silence us and limit the ways in which we "can" use language. And > I > > thoughtof the discussions I have had with my students about > > developing ethos in an > > argument--how we can/'t make certain arguments because of who we > > are or how > > our bodies are represented....discussions that often end with > > statementslike, "You might have trouble making that argument." > What > > I'm often saying > > to students, without directly saying it, is "You might have > trouble > > makingthat argument because of how you are seen by others." I > don't > > want to say > > that out loud, but that's often what I mean. And I'm embarrassed > to > > admitit. > > > > I'm not sure where my thoughts are going with this, but you've > > given me > > cause to rethink the ways that I approach these kinds of > > discussions with my > > students. > > > > Enough of my rambling for now. :) > > > > Susan > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > > [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of > > KristieFleckenstein > > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:35 PM > > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > > > > Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received your post. I found > > it at the > > end of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting. > > > > Here's what you wrote. > > > > Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General > > Educationcommittee at my school proposed that courses satisfying > > the college's > > diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more > about > > howstudents negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital > > environments. It > > seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. > > > > Here's my response. > > > > I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment question, > and > > one we > > need to keep reminding ourselves to ask. > > > > It reminds me of Coco Fusco's work in _The Bodies that Were Not > Ours_. > > (Fusco's a performance artist at Columbia U, and I've just > > discovered her > > work.) She's concerned that digital technologies too easily lead to > > disembodiment in a couple ways. First, we users tend to forget > > that all > > that hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low wage > > assemble-line factory (she did 3 years of research in the > factories > > alongthe Mexican border). AND we tend to assume that bodies > don't > > matter on line > > (back to the New Yorker cartoon-the one with the two dogs, one at > a > > computerterminal who tells the other one that no one knows you're > a > > dog online). > > Fusco wants to keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do matter, > > especiallyonline. > > > > It seems as if your school has gotten this message. So how do we > > answerthat question? > > > > I know there are folks who are looking at the way in which we > carry > > realworld biases with us into virtual world spaces. But does > > anyone on the list > > know of research that looks at the way our minority students > configure > > themselves in online environments? And, if not, how do we go > about > > gettinganswers to these questions? > > > > Ideas? > > > > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > > Department of English > > Florida State University > > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > > P. O. Box 3061580 > > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > > 850.644.3530 (O) > > 850.644.0811 (F) > > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Teaching_Composition maillist - > > > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > > > > To unsubscribe, please visit > > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > > updateyour information. > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Teaching_Composition maillist - > > > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > > > > To unsubscribe, please visit > > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > > update your information. > > > > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > Department of English > Florida State University > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > P. O. Box 3061580 > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > 850.644.3530 (O) > 850.644.0811 (F) > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > update your information. > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > update your information. > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor Department of English Florida State University 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way P. O. Box 3061580 Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 850.644.3530 (O) 850.644.0811 (F) kfleckenstein@fsu.edu _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition To unsubscribe, please visit http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and update your information. From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Wed Nov 28 15:47:52 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Patricia Freitag Ericsson) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 07:47:52 -0800 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve In-Reply-To: <474D126C0200001A0002DB16@mail-out.email.uvsc.edu> References: <474D126C0200001A0002DB16@mail-out.email.uvsc.edu> Message-ID: Perhaps random, but some thoughts and the final one might be the most interesting/important. The Classical rhetoric we lean on here was tons about embodiment, no? I mean a lot of it was thought out/articulated in relationship to speaking in person--directily embodied. There are bodies behind texts, yet, but how about bodies as texts? That seems to be part of what we're talking about. We read the body behind the texts as texts. I showed a short cartoon as a part of class a few years ago, and after it a student said "I can't believe a person who looks like you would show a cartoon like that." The student thought s/he knew me by the way I had appeared in class that semester. All of my teachers in grade school were nuns--ones who wore the old traditional habits. Talk about issues with embodiment!! When a tiny whisp of hair appeared from under the headress thing, we were all abuzz. After school, they disappeared into the convent--a mysterious place. Imagining them as having real bodies was almost impossible. Finally, texts have bodies, no? I'm thinking about Lupton and Miller's essay "Body of the Book." "All objects manufactured for use are extensions of the body: food, furniture, shelter, and tools do not lie in a region safely 'outside' the body, but instead are continuations of the body, turning it inside out." They ask, "But what if one were to see writing as an extension of the body, no different in essence from an artificial limb or a contact lense? Like a chair supporting the human skeleton, writing supplments the body's capacity to speak: it is permanent rather than ephemeral, it withstands movements in place and time, and it remains readable in the absence of it's author." Later Lupton/Miller add the part that has pretty much shocked my students and made them pay attention: "As the end-product of the so-called 'thought process,' writging thus resembles excrement. It is also akin to hair, finger nails, and the surface of the skin--each is a part of the body that is continually regenerated yet biologically dead, detachable, disposable. Writing is like blook, sweat, semen, saliva, and otehr substances that the body periodically produces and eliminates." Patty >This reminds me of something else we often have to work really hard on >with students -- though maybe it just spins it back ground to your >original points, Kris -- helping students see the bodies behind texts. >Texts are people talking, ultimately, and it changes the way students >imagine the text to imagine ("flesh out"?) the people behind them. In >my Comp II classes, I have students read Carol Berkenkotter's long-ago >C's article following Donald Murray through his invention process. The >piece ends with a reflection by Murray himself (an early example of a >research design allowing the "subject" to speak back to the researcher's >story) -- and it really bends students' perspectives. They also read >Murray's piece "All Writing is Autobiography," and have the double >experience both of Murray talking about himself and (now) reading a >eulogy written by one of his longtime proteges at the Boston Globe. >>From experiences like that -- getting students to pay attention to *how* >they "embody" -- or don't -- the writers of their texts, we work out to >other texts where it's harder to imagine the writer in the flesh. (It >helps to have had lunch with the writers, so you can tell students what >they eat.) > >So I love the thinking you're doing here about audience inventing rhetor >(rhetor-audience-invoked?) . . . and who has to have what bodies to do >which things . . . and how at one level, the entire point of writing has >always been to *disembody* the writer, so their words can be where they >are not -- and yet good blogging software allows photo uploads (not to >mention Facebook/etc.) and there is Haas and Takayoshi's developing >research on how emoticons in chat are used as much to re-embody the >writer (return them lost facial gesture) as to clarify meaning. . . . >For a guy who's too much in his head, this is kinda mindbending . . . > >Cheers -- >Doug > > >Dr. Doug Downs >Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric >Writing Program Coordinator >Dept. of English and Literature >Utah Valley State College >800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 >LA 126g >801-863-8572 >>>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" 11/28/07 4:45 AM >>> >So persuasion is a kind of wish fulfillment? Instead of the rhetor >inventing the audience, the audience invents the rhetor (and in the >process become what they imagine?). Hoot! Now that has some >interesting possibilities as a thought experiment, esp. when we switch >it to the class and consider the teacher as rhetor and the students as >audience. > >What's the wish students want fulfilled and how do they "invent" the >teacher? I suspect that answers to those questions will shift as >students move through the public school system. I also suspect that the >"embodied" teaching experiences of teachers in the K-3 classrooms are >different from those in the 4-6 classrooms (and different yet again from >the 7-8, 9-12 classrooms). Maybe because the "wishes" are different? > >And what happens when that wish fulfillment is stymied by the teacher's >body? For instance, I just had a grad student in my office yesterday >chatting about a variety of things. And out of the blue (or what seemed >to me the blue), she asked me if my height ever caused me problems in >the classroom (I'm 5' 2"). She said she thought her students saw her as >short (she's 5') and thus without authority. > >Does that mean, then, that students who wish an "authority" teacher >might be unable to fulfill that wish with a teacher who does not >physically meet their vision of authority? Saying something like, "Oh, >that teacher doesn't have an "authority" body?" Or might they learn to >fulfill that wish according to other criteria? > >Susan's ethos question and your response, Doug, were also in the back of >my head as I read through NCTE's Inbox this morning, esp. the section on >the NCTE blogs...the ones where participants posted responses to NCTE in >NYC? Traci Gardner's response blog addressed the question of teachers >blogging: should teachers be blogging and/or participating on social >networking sites? I guess some school systems are urging teachers to >avoid both. > >Doesn't it seem as if part of the concern stems from issues of >embodiment--life outside of school, life as something other than a >talking head? (I remember when I was in grade school--I saw my second >grade teacher in the grocery store, and I was shocked. What? Teachers >buy food?) > >Fascinating and important, all of this. > >Kris > > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Doug Downs >Date: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:57 am >Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve >To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >> Well put, Kris. It only took the Roman Catholic Church 'til this >> century to apologize for believing Aristotle over Galileo on >> astronomy. >> I don't hear enough rhetoricians admit that he was simply, flatly >> wrongabout ethos. Or, perhaps, that he was speaking of how he >> *wished* it >> were rather than how it *is*. In the flesh and blood world, >> everythingwe know about the rhetor -- not simply the rhetor as they >> appear in >> their text or, more broadly, in the delivery of their text, >> matters. >> >> Of course, it's easier to see that, maybe, in a visual and electronic >> world than it was in a world where almost all rhetoric took place >> in-person and from memory. >> >> Usually we can think about ethos as a matter of identification with >> image -- if I the rhetor resemble (particularly in values and ways of >> being) you the audience, I likely have high ethos. What's interesting >> about "right" bodies and ethos is that rather than identification with >> how the audience *is*, ethos may derive from identification with what >> the audience *wants*. . . . But then, of course, ethos is always >> derived from being what the audience wishes it were rather than >> what it > > necessarily is. >> >> Cheers -- >> Doug >> >> >> Dr. Doug Downs >> Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric >> Writing Program Chair >> Dept. of English and Literature >> Utah Valley State College >> 800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 >> LA 126g >> 801-863-8572 >> >> >> >>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" 11/27/2007 2:42 AM >> >>> >> You know, tho', Susan, even Aristotelian ethos had a material aspect, >> one related to the body through eunoia, or friendliness. >> Regardless of >> A's saying that good character is created only through the words of a > > speech, he also points to the importance of creating a physical >> appearance that establishes friendliness. Even delivery has a role to >> play in ethos. >> >> So I don't think you're off the mark to consider bodies as part of our >> rhetorical toolbox. >> >> Maybe the problem is that bodies matter, but that bodies matter in >> potentially negative and pejorative ways; i.e., because you do not >> possess the "right" body, you can't make that argument (or you can't >> make that argument persuasively). >> >> Perhaps this cultural reality constitutes another important area of >> critical engagement for our students and for us as teachers? >> >> Kris >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Susan Miller-Cochran >> Date: Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:41 pm >> Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve >> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >> >> > Kristie, >> > >> > Thank you for such a marvelous, thought-provoking module. In the >> > spirit of >> > sharing anecdotal evidence of (dis)embodied writing, I started >> > thinkingabout some of my own teaching practices...perhaps with a >> > bit of chagrin. I >> > thought about how our bodies, or how our bodies are perceived by >> > others, can >> > silence us and limit the ways in which we "can" use language. And >> I >> > thoughtof the discussions I have had with my students about >> > developing ethos in an >> > argument--how we can/'t make certain arguments because of who we >> > are or how >> > our bodies are represented....discussions that often end with >> > statementslike, "You might have trouble making that argument." >> What >> > I'm often saying >> > to students, without directly saying it, is "You might have >> trouble >> > makingthat argument because of how you are seen by others." I >> don't >> > want to say >> > that out loud, but that's often what I mean. And I'm embarrassed >> to >> > admitit. >> > >> > I'm not sure where my thoughts are going with this, but you've >> > given me >> > cause to rethink the ways that I approach these kinds of >> > discussions with my >> > students. >> > >> > Enough of my rambling for now. :) >> > >> > Susan >> > >> > -----Original Message----- >> > From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com >> > [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of >> > KristieFleckenstein >> > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:35 PM >> > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >> > Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve >> > >> > Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received your post. I found >> > it at the >> > end of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting. >> > >> > Here's what you wrote. >> > >> > Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General >> > Educationcommittee at my school proposed that courses satisfying >> > the college's >> > diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more >> about >> > howstudents negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital >> > environments. It >> > seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. >> > >> > Here's my response. >> > >> > I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment question, >> and >> > one we >> > need to keep reminding ourselves to ask. >> > >> > It reminds me of Coco Fusco's work in _The Bodies that Were Not >> Ours_. >> > (Fusco's a performance artist at Columbia U, and I've just >> > discovered her >> > work.) She's concerned that digital technologies too easily lead to >> > disembodiment in a couple ways. First, we users tend to forget >> > that all >> > that hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low wage > > > assemble-line factory (she did 3 years of research in the >> factories >> > alongthe Mexican border). AND we tend to assume that bodies >> don't >> > matter on line >> > (back to the New Yorker cartoon-the one with the two dogs, one at >> a >> > computerterminal who tells the other one that no one knows you're >> a >> > dog online). >> > Fusco wants to keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do matter, >> > especiallyonline. >> > >> > It seems as if your school has gotten this message. So how do we > > > answerthat question? >> > >> > I know there are folks who are looking at the way in which we >> carry >> > realworld biases with us into virtual world spaces. But does >> > anyone on the list >> > know of research that looks at the way our minority students >> configure >> > themselves in online environments? And, if not, how do we go >> about >> > gettinganswers to these questions? >> > >> > Ideas? >> > >> > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor >> > Department of English >> > Florida State University >> > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way >> > P. O. Box 3061580 >> > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 >> > 850.644.3530 (O) >> > 850.644.0811 (F) >> > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Teaching_Composition maillist - >> > >> >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> > >> > To unsubscribe, please visit >> > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> > updateyour information. >> > >> > >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Teaching_Composition maillist - >> > >> >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> > >> > To unsubscribe, please visit >> > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> > update your information. >> > >> >> Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor >> Department of English >> Florida State University >> 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way >> P. O. Box 3061580 >> Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 >> 850.644.3530 (O) >> 850.644.0811 (F) >> kfleckenstein@fsu.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> Teaching_Composition maillist - >> Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> To unsubscribe, please visit >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> update your information. >> _______________________________________________ >> Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> To unsubscribe, please visit >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> update your information. >> > >Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor >Department of English >Florida State University >405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way >P. O. Box 3061580 >Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 >850.644.3530 (O) >850.644.0811 (F) >kfleckenstein@fsu.edu >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > >To unsubscribe, please visit >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and update >your information. > >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > >To unsubscribe, please visit >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >update your information. -- Patricia Freitag Ericsson, PhD Director, Digital Technology and Culture Program Assistant Professor, Department of English Washington State University Pullman, WA 99164 ericsson@wsu.edu From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Wed Nov 28 19:19:01 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Kathy Fitch) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 13:19:01 -0600 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071128191907.36718E38022@smtpauth02.csee.onr.siteprotect.com> I've just been reading about Martin Luther King, Jr.'s struggles with Richard J. Daley over a permit to march in Chicago. King said, "We have only our bodies, and you are asking us to give up the one thing we have when you say, 'Don't march.'" We have only our bodies. So striking. That's high stakes composition. Patty, I'm kind of rooting for your students to be shocked into pushing hard and eloquently both against and with the excrement metaphor. Right away, I can imagine quite a few students I've known over the years saying something along the lines of, "Yup, that's pretty much how my teachers have always seen my writing, alright. Guess when they said it was crappy, they weren't kidding." Oh, and so many other directions to take that bit in. "If only!" is one. If only writing were that easy, that effortless, that automatic--as constant and predictable as blood, sweat, or urine. Then, too, I think of the history of the ink as blood metaphor. If you cut me, I'd just bleed, but poetically we often do think of the deep nonphysical wounds as producing hot red words pulsing with passion and with persistent life. I thought, too, of boys writing in the snow, and the melting immediacy of that, as well as of the apparent impossibility of resisting the urge if one has the appropriate tools at hand. That leads me on to writing and snow, generally: how we'd fall into the snow and rise up with great care so as not to disturb the images; how we'd scissor our arms and legs and call the marks angels; how we'd form giant letters of boot print tracks, and link these into still more giant words; how we'd eventually tire of our own alphabets and go looking for the tracks made by rabbits, squirrels, deer; and how we'd then make faux tracks of our own, copying the animals' alphabets. When I come upon my own writing years after it was composed, it often seems to me like the tracks of some exotic animal I know not of. I wonder: what would students compare writing to? It's enlightening to ask them. Another grad school memory sprung to mind. Our student newspaper used to feature the "coed of the week." There was always a flattering picture and a silly set of interview questions and answers along the playmate of the month line. "I like long walks on the beach in the moonlight," that sort of thing. Once, when we were all TAs, the coed of the week was a student in one of my male colleague's classes. This led to much merriment, and to a general bullpen discussion among the guys about their best looking female students. Aside from the general distaste I had for thinking of students that way, I remember thinking about how my own feelings of attraction for people always ultimately hinge on nonphysical things, which then somehow permanently alter my interpretation of their physical selves. A camera could never capture either the ugliness or the brilliance I sense in some people. A skilled photographer might capture it, but a camera is something more than a recording device in their hands--they compose. This aspect of the bodies we write with and the bodies we read will always delight, confuse, and astonish me. Again and again, the civil rights demonstrators made parchment of their bodies, and were written upon with clubs and fire hoses, dangled from trees, permanently end-stopped with bullets. King's leap of faith--that this is a text that *would* ultimately be read as he read it if only he could keep placing that text before our eyes again and again--is still astonishing. Kathy From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Wed Nov 28 20:28:13 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Kemp, Fred) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 14:28:13 -0600 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I've had big teachers and I've had small teachers, and I've supervised plenty of both, and I'm pretty sure that authority is projected or not projected because of something other than size. My wife is 5'1" and has been a library administrator for umpteen years, and nobody has ever reported an authority problem with her. Nor have I. I do think teachers' blogging is a serious issue, but I haven't settled on an answer. Although brand-new teaching assistants have never taken me seriously when I say this -- always assuming that a friendly interaction with students has got to be productive, doncha know -- familiarity is a dangerous thing in about five or six ways. Most 19 or 20-year-olds are not mature enough to modulate their own relationships with teachers or understand subtle cues about distance from a let-it-all-hang-out teacher. Fred Kemp Texas Tech On 11/28/07 5:45 AM, "Kristie Fleckenstein" wrote: > So persuasion is a kind of wish fulfillment? Instead of the rhetor inventing > the audience, the audience invents the rhetor (and in the process become what > they imagine?). Hoot! Now that has some interesting possibilities as a > thought experiment, esp. when we switch it to the class and consider the > teacher as rhetor and the students as audience. > > What's the wish students want fulfilled and how do they "invent" the teacher? > I suspect that answers to those questions will shift as students move through > the public school system. I also suspect that the "embodied" teaching > experiences of teachers in the K-3 classrooms are different from those in the > 4-6 classrooms (and different yet again from the 7-8, 9-12 classrooms). Maybe > because the "wishes" are different? > > And what happens when that wish fulfillment is stymied by the teacher's body? > For instance, I just had a grad student in my office yesterday chatting about > a variety of things. And out of the blue (or what seemed to me the blue), she > asked me if my height ever caused me problems in the classroom (I'm 5' 2"). > She said she thought her students saw her as short (she's 5') and thus without > authority. > > Does that mean, then, that students who wish an "authority" teacher might be > unable to fulfill that wish with a teacher who does not physically meet their > vision of authority? Saying something like, "Oh, that teacher doesn't have an > "authority" body?" Or might they learn to fulfill that wish according to other > criteria? > > Susan's ethos question and your response, Doug, were also in the back of my > head as I read through NCTE's Inbox this morning, esp. the section on the NCTE > blogs...the ones where participants posted responses to NCTE in NYC? Traci > Gardner's response blog addressed the question of teachers blogging: should > teachers be blogging and/or participating on social networking sites? I guess > some school systems are urging teachers to avoid both. > > Doesn't it seem as if part of the concern stems from issues of > embodiment--life outside of school, life as something other than a talking > head? (I remember when I was in grade school--I saw my second grade teacher > in the grocery store, and I was shocked. What? Teachers buy food?) > > Fascinating and important, all of this. > > Kris > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Doug Downs > Date: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:57 am > Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >> Well put, Kris. It only took the Roman Catholic Church 'til this >> century to apologize for believing Aristotle over Galileo on >> astronomy. >> I don't hear enough rhetoricians admit that he was simply, flatly >> wrongabout ethos. Or, perhaps, that he was speaking of how he >> *wished* it >> were rather than how it *is*. In the flesh and blood world, >> everythingwe know about the rhetor -- not simply the rhetor as they >> appear in >> their text or, more broadly, in the delivery of their text, >> matters. >> >> Of course, it's easier to see that, maybe, in a visual and electronic >> world than it was in a world where almost all rhetoric took place >> in-person and from memory. >> >> Usually we can think about ethos as a matter of identification with >> image -- if I the rhetor resemble (particularly in values and ways of >> being) you the audience, I likely have high ethos. What's interesting >> about "right" bodies and ethos is that rather than identification with >> how the audience *is*, ethos may derive from identification with what >> the audience *wants*. . . . But then, of course, ethos is always >> derived from being what the audience wishes it were rather than >> what it >> necessarily is. >> >> Cheers -- >> Doug >> >> >> Dr. Doug Downs >> Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric >> Writing Program Chair >> Dept. of English and Literature >> Utah Valley State College >> 800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 >> LA 126g >> 801-863-8572 >> >> >>>>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" 11/27/2007 2:42 AM >>>>> >> You know, tho', Susan, even Aristotelian ethos had a material aspect, >> one related to the body through eunoia, or friendliness. >> Regardless of >> A's saying that good character is created only through the words of a >> speech, he also points to the importance of creating a physical >> appearance that establishes friendliness. Even delivery has a role to >> play in ethos. >> >> So I don't think you're off the mark to consider bodies as part of our >> rhetorical toolbox. >> >> Maybe the problem is that bodies matter, but that bodies matter in >> potentially negative and pejorative ways; i.e., because you do not >> possess the "right" body, you can't make that argument (or you can't >> make that argument persuasively). >> >> Perhaps this cultural reality constitutes another important area of >> critical engagement for our students and for us as teachers? >> >> Kris >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Susan Miller-Cochran >> Date: Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:41 pm >> Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve >> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >> >>> Kristie, >>> >>> Thank you for such a marvelous, thought-provoking module. In the >>> spirit of >>> sharing anecdotal evidence of (dis)embodied writing, I started >>> thinkingabout some of my own teaching practices...perhaps with a >>> bit of chagrin. I >>> thought about how our bodies, or how our bodies are perceived by >>> others, can >>> silence us and limit the ways in which we "can" use language. And >> I >>> thoughtof the discussions I have had with my students about >>> developing ethos in an >>> argument--how we can/'t make certain arguments because of who we >>> are or how >>> our bodies are represented....discussions that often end with >>> statementslike, "You might have trouble making that argument." >> What >>> I'm often saying >>> to students, without directly saying it, is "You might have >> trouble >>> makingthat argument because of how you are seen by others." I >> don't >>> want to say >>> that out loud, but that's often what I mean. And I'm embarrassed >> to >>> admitit. >>> >>> I'm not sure where my thoughts are going with this, but you've >>> given me >>> cause to rethink the ways that I approach these kinds of >>> discussions with my >>> students. >>> >>> Enough of my rambling for now. :) >>> >>> Susan >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com >>> [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of >>> KristieFleckenstein >>> Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:35 PM >>> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >>> Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve >>> >>> Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received your post. I found >>> it at the >>> end of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting. >>> >>> Here's what you wrote. >>> >>> Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General >>> Educationcommittee at my school proposed that courses satisfying >>> the college's >>> diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more >> about >>> howstudents negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital >>> environments. It >>> seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. >>> >>> Here's my response. >>> >>> I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment question, >> and >>> one we >>> need to keep reminding ourselves to ask. >>> >>> It reminds me of Coco Fusco's work in _The Bodies that Were Not >> Ours_. >>> (Fusco's a performance artist at Columbia U, and I've just >>> discovered her >>> work.) She's concerned that digital technologies too easily lead to >>> disembodiment in a couple ways. First, we users tend to forget >>> that all >>> that hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low wage >>> assemble-line factory (she did 3 years of research in the >> factories >>> alongthe Mexican border). AND we tend to assume that bodies >> don't >>> matter on line >>> (back to the New Yorker cartoon-the one with the two dogs, one at >> a >>> computerterminal who tells the other one that no one knows you're >> a >>> dog online). >>> Fusco wants to keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do matter, >>> especiallyonline. >>> >>> It seems as if your school has gotten this message. So how do we >>> answerthat question? >>> >>> I know there are folks who are looking at the way in which we >> carry >>> realworld biases with us into virtual world spaces. But does >>> anyone on the list >>> know of research that looks at the way our minority students >> configure >>> themselves in online environments? And, if not, how do we go >> about >>> gettinganswers to these questions? >>> >>> Ideas? >>> >>> Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor >>> Department of English >>> Florida State University >>> 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way >>> P. O. Box 3061580 >>> Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 >>> 850.644.3530 (O) >>> 850.644.0811 (F) >>> kfleckenstein@fsu.edu >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Teaching_Composition maillist - >>> >> Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo >> /teaching_composition >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, please visit >>> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >>> updateyour information. >>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Teaching_Composition maillist - >>> >> Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo >> /teaching_composition >> >>> >>> To unsubscribe, please visit >>> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >>> update your information. >>> >> >> Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor >> Department of English >> Florida State University >> 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way >> P. O. Box 3061580 >> Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 >> 850.644.3530 (O) >> 850.644.0811 (F) >> kfleckenstein@fsu.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> Teaching_Composition maillist - >> Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> To unsubscribe, please visit >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> update your information. >> _______________________________________________ >> Teaching_Composition maillist - >> Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo >> /teaching_composition >> >> To unsubscribe, please visit >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> update your information. >> > > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > Department of English > Florida State University > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > P. O. Box 3061580 > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > 850.644.3530 (O) > 850.644.0811 (F) > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and update your > information. From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Wed Nov 28 22:26:16 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Chris Anson) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 17:26:16 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve In-Reply-To: References: <000601c82fd4$a72f5b50$5f01a8c0@ENGVAIO> <474BD5CA.3821.001A.0@uvsc.edu> Message-ID: --Apple-Mail-21--1061755723 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed; delsp=yes Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The notion of embodiment and self as it's manifested online is really interesting. How do students construct us as beings, not just conduits of knowledge and advice? A year ago, I asked my sons (16 and 19) whether I should set up a Facebook account. Shock and instant pleading not to. Facebook is not, they explained, for my generation. A year later, I took the plunge anyway--things had changed a bit, they said. My older son had been urged by one of his professors at UNC-Chapel Hill to visit his Facebook page, which he had set up to communicate more easily and informally with students and to share more of himself (i.e., that grocery-store Other). I soon discovered that half a dozen faculty on my campus had pages, and since then (a few months) I've been friended by perhaps three dozen people in the field, as well as a bunch of my sons' friends and a bunch of graduate students and, very recently, some undergraduates I've had in my classes. But I find myself feeling cautious and a little hesitant when I'm using Facebook. While others seem to use it constantly, I visit it maybe once a week unless prompted by someone else. Has anyone else used Facebook, and if so, what have you experienced? On Nov 28, 2007, at 6:45 AM, Kristie Fleckenstein wrote: > > Susan's ethos question and your response, Doug, were also in the > back of my head as I read through NCTE's Inbox this morning, esp. > the section on the NCTE blogs...the ones where participants posted > responses to NCTE in NYC? Traci Gardner's response blog addressed > the question of teachers blogging: should teachers be blogging and/ > or participating on social networking sites? I guess some school > systems are urging teachers to avoid both. > > Doesn't it seem as if part of the concern stems from issues of > embodiment--life outside of school, life as something other than a > talking head? (I remember when I was in grade school--I saw my > second grade teacher in the grocery store, and I was shocked. What? > Teachers buy food?) > > Fascinating and important, all of this. > > Kris > -- Chris M. Anson [Web site] University Distinguished Professor Director, Campus Writing & Speaking Program Box 8105, North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC 27695-8105 (919) 513-4080 --Apple-Mail-21--1061755723 Content-Type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The notion of embodiment = and self as it's manifested online is really interesting. How do = students construct us as beings, not just conduits of knowledge and = advice? A year ago, I asked my sons (16 and 19) whether I should set up = a Facebook account. Shock and instant pleading not to. Facebook is not, = they explained, for my generation. A year later, I took the plunge = anyway--things had changed a bit, they said. My older son had been urged = by one of his professors at UNC-Chapel Hill to visit his Facebook page, = which he had set up to communicate more easily and informally with = students and to share more of himself (i.e., that grocery-store Other). = I soon discovered that half a dozen faculty on my campus had pages, and = since then (a few months) I've been friended by perhaps three dozen = people in the field, as well as a bunch of my sons' friends and a bunch = of graduate students and, very recently, some undergraduates I've had in = my classes.  But I find myself feeling cautious and a little = hesitant when I'm using Facebook. While others seem to use it = constantly, I visit it maybe once a week unless prompted by someone = else. Has anyone else used Facebook, and if so, what have you = experienced? 

On Nov 28, 2007, at 6:45 AM, = Kristie Fleckenstein wrote:


Susan's = ethos question and your response, Doug, were also in the back of my head = as I read through NCTE's Inbox this morning, esp. the section on the = NCTE blogs...the ones where participants posted responses to NCTE in = NYC?  Traci Gardner's response blog addressed the question of = teachers blogging: should teachers be blogging and/or participating on = social networking sites?  I guess some school systems are urging = teachers to avoid both.

Doesn't it seem as if part of the concern = stems from issues of embodiment--life outside of school, life as = something other than a talking head?  (I remember when I was in = grade school--I saw my second grade teacher in the grocery store, and I = was shocked.  What? Teachers buy food?)

Fascinating and = important, all of this.

Kris


=
[Web = site]
University Distinguished = Professor
Director, Campus Writing = & Speaking Program
Box 8105, North = Carolina State University 
Raleigh, NC  = 27695-8105 
(919) 513-4080


=
= --Apple-Mail-21--1061755723-- From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Thu Nov 29 00:44:36 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Michael Day) Date: Wed, 28 Nov 2007 18:44:36 -0600 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Facebook and constructed selves In-Reply-To: References: <000601c82fd4$a72f5b50$5f01a8c0@ENGVAIO> <474BD5CA.3821.001A.0@uvsc.edu> Message-ID: <474DB714020000B10002FCBA@wpo.cso.niu.edu> Chris, I've also been on both Facebook and Myspace for a year or so, after a group of us from the Inter/National Coalition for Electronic Portfolio Research decided to do a panel at the Indianapolis Assessment Conference on using FB/MS as a model or vehicle for something like an eportfolio. Although it's tempting to think of FB and MS as "self-sponsored discourse" that will motivate students to do writing that isn't "obliged" (Doug Hesse's terms), we found that most students want a space separate from academic surveillance where they can "be themselves." I haven't used it either with classes, and take a fairly cautious approach. I don't give a lot of information or share a lot of photos, and have frequent arguments with my daughter about what she shares and who will see it. Students, employers, or anyone else who wants to look, can use the "corpus" we present on FB, MS, blogs, and even plain old web pages to "construct us a beings," and it's interesting and sometimes frightening what they come up with. Conversely, I've had TAs in my office incensed at what their students have written about them in FB, and have had to caution them that it's really none of their business. To the question of embodiment and self on FB, I think Spencer Schaffner's work is relevant. He's exploring "the ways Facebook profiles enact and celebrate the strategic representation of the academic "face" (as synecdochic self) while succumbing to auto- representation via a list of predetermined attributes," and gave an interesting presentation on this at C & W 2006 Online. Gina Maranto and Sarah Robbins have also had their students do research in FB and other social networking sites. And, of course, Danah Boyd's work on social networking and identity is valuable in this context: http://www.danah.org/papers/ "Virtual Friendship and the New Narcissism," recently mentioned on the WPA list, may also be relevant: http://www.thenewatlantis.com/archive/17/rosen.htm In case anyone is interested, you'll find random notes on FB/MS and writing classes (including a lot of commentary from technorhetoricians on the Techrhet list) from a presentation I gave about a year ago at the URL below. Yes, I know that in Internet time, this is ancient... http://www.engl.niu.edu/mday/gpacw06.html And Kathy, I just loved your post about how students constructed you as a grad TA! It's a familiar subject in my TA pedagogy seminar these days... Michael Michael Day First-Year Composition Northern Illinois University >>> Chris Anson 11/28/2007 4:26:16 PM >>> The notion of embodiment and self as it's manifested online is really interesting. How do students construct us as beings, not just conduits of knowledge and advice? A year ago, I asked my sons (16 and 19) whether I should set up a Facebook account. Shock and instant pleading not to. Facebook is not, they explained, for my generation. A year later, I took the plunge anyway--things had changed a bit, they said. My older son had been urged by one of his professors at UNC-Chapel Hill to visit his Facebook page, which he had set up to communicate more easily and informally with students and to share more of himself (i.e., that grocery-store Other). I soon discovered that half a dozen faculty on my campus had pages, and since then (a few months) I've been friended by perhaps three dozen people in the field, as well as a bunch of my sons' friends and a bunch of graduate students and, very recently, some undergraduates I've had in my classes. But I find myself feeling cautious and a little hesitant when I'm using Facebook. While others seem to use it constantly, I visit it maybe once a week unless prompted by someone else. Has anyone else used Facebook, and if so, what have you experienced? On Nov 28, 2007, at 6:45 AM, Kristie Fleckenstein wrote: > > Susan's ethos question and your response, Doug, were also in the > back of my head as I read through NCTE's Inbox this morning, esp. > the section on the NCTE blogs...the ones where participants posted > responses to NCTE in NYC? Traci Gardner's response blog addressed > the question of teachers blogging: should teachers be blogging and/ > or participating on social networking sites? I guess some school > systems are urging teachers to avoid both. > > Doesn't it seem as if part of the concern stems from issues of > embodiment--life outside of school, life as something other than a > talking head? (I remember when I was in grade school--I saw my > second grade teacher in the grocery store, and I was shocked. What? > Teachers buy food?) > > Fascinating and important, all of this. > > Kris > -- Chris M. Anson [Web site] University Distinguished Professor Director, Campus Writing & Speaking Program Box 8105, North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC 27695-8105 (919) 513-4080 From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Thu Nov 29 03:48:47 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Kate McKinney) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 03:48:47 +0000 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve In-Reply-To: References: <474D126C0200001A0002DB16@mail-out.email.uvsc.edu> Message-ID: --_7a11f11f-a83a-4c7c-889a-96765bbed3e8_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that I (my writing) am (is) so very NOT a body here in this venue. = I (it) am (is), sometimes, but not here. I have no articulate support for t= his claim. I think it has something to do with community...I don't know wha= t y'all eat for lunch, I guess? =20 But I LOVE THIS THREAD, and I wanted to respond to Patty's last two paragra= phs, about texts having bodies and being excrement. I submit to her lit rev= iew, in addition to Lupton and Miller, Deleuze and Guattari: text-as-body i= s a writer/rhetor+writing+reader "assemblage." And what about when the writ= ing exists as its own body (it outlives, transcends writer/rhetor?) It is a= "body without organs"? =20 --Kate McKinney (NCSU) =20 PS Dr. Anson--I'm scared of Facebook, but I don't know what I think about s= tudents seeing/participating with me in "disembodied" social-rhetorical sit= uations... Everything about me as body (and I associate online identities, = my Flickr account, for example, with me as body) is empowering, to me. I fe= el like it GIVES me authority, whereas others seem to think they lose autho= rity when such things are exposed. I wonder if that different perception of= power energy transfer is the difference between a mindset of (Modern) Auth= or-ity and (postmodern) auteur-ity? OR---hang the hooey, I'm a new teacher = and I've never been stalked online by a student, before...? > Finally, texts have bodies, no? I'm thinking about Lupton and > Miller's= essay "Body of the Book." "All objects manufactured for use > are extensio= ns of the body: food, furniture, shelter, and tools do > not lie in a regio= n safely 'outside' the body, but instead are > continuations of the body, t= urning it inside out." They ask, "But > what if one were to see writing as = an extension of the body, no > different in essence from an artificial limb= or a contact lense? Like > a chair supporting the human skeleton, writing = supplments the body's > capacity to speak: it is permanent rather than ephe= meral, it > withstands movements in place and time, and it remains readable= in > the absence of it's author."> > Later Lupton/Miller add the part that= has pretty much shocked my > students and made them pay attention: "As the= end-product of the > so-called 'thought process,' writging thus resembles = excrement. It > is also akin to hair, finger nails, and the surface of the = skin--each > is a part of the body that is continually regenerated yet > bi= ologically dead, detachable, disposable. Writing is like blook, > sweat, se= men, saliva, and otehr substances that the body periodically > produces and= eliminates."> > Patty> > > > >This reminds me of something else we often h= ave to work really hard on> >with students -- though maybe it just spins it= back ground to your> >original points, Kris -- helping students see the bo= dies behind texts.> >Texts are people talking, ultimately, and it changes t= he way students> >imagine the text to imagine ("flesh out"?) the people beh= ind them. In> >my Comp II classes, I have students read Carol Berkenkotter'= s long-ago> >C's article following Donald Murray through his invention proc= ess. The> >piece ends with a reflection by Murray himself (an early example= of a> >research design allowing the "subject" to speak back to the researc= her's> >story) -- and it really bends students' perspectives. They also rea= d> >Murray's piece "All Writing is Autobiography," and have the double> >ex= perience both of Murray talking about himself and (now) reading a> >eulogy = written by one of his longtime proteges at the Boston Globe.> >>From experi= ences like that -- getting students to pay attention to *how*> >they "embod= y" -- or don't -- the writers of their texts, we work out to> >other texts = where it's harder to imagine the writer in the flesh. (It> >helps to have h= ad lunch with the writers, so you can tell students what> >they eat.) > >> = >So I love the thinking you're doing here about audience inventing rhetor> = >(rhetor-audience-invoked?) . . . and who has to have what bodies to do> >w= hich things . . . and how at one level, the entire point of writing has> >a= lways been to *disembody* the writer, so their words can be where they> >ar= e not -- and yet good blogging software allows photo uploads (not to> >ment= ion Facebook/etc.) and there is Haas and Takayoshi's developing> >research = on how emoticons in chat are used as much to re-embody the> >writer (return= them lost facial gesture) as to clarify meaning. . . .> >For a guy who's t= oo much in his head, this is kinda mindbending . . .> >> >Cheers --> >Doug>= >> >> >Dr. Doug Downs> >Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric> >Writing = Program Coordinator> >Dept. of English and Literature> >Utah Valley State C= ollege> >800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058> >LA 126g> >801-863-8572> >>>= > "Kristie Fleckenstein" 11/28/07 4:45 AM >>>> >So = persuasion is a kind of wish fulfillment? Instead of the rhetor> >inventing= the audience, the audience invents the rhetor (and in the> >process become= what they imagine?). Hoot! Now that has some> >interesting possibilities a= s a thought experiment, esp. when we switch> >it to the class and consider = the teacher as rhetor and the students as> >audience.> >> >What's the wish = students want fulfilled and how do they "invent" the> >teacher? I suspect t= hat answers to those questions will shift as> >students move through the pu= blic school system. I also suspect that the> >"embodied" teaching experienc= es of teachers in the K-3 classrooms are> >different from those in the 4-6 = classrooms (and different yet again from> >the 7-8, 9-12 classrooms). Maybe= because the "wishes" are different?> >> >And what happens when that wish f= ulfillment is stymied by the teacher's> >body? For instance, I just had a g= rad student in my office yesterday> >chatting about a variety of things. An= d out of the blue (or what seemed> >to me the blue), she asked me if my hei= ght ever caused me problems in> >the classroom (I'm 5' 2"). She said she th= ought her students saw her as> >short (she's 5') and thus without authority= . > >> >Does that mean, then, that students who wish an "authority" teacher= > >might be unable to fulfill that wish with a teacher who does not> >physi= cally meet their vision of authority? Saying something like, "Oh,> >that te= acher doesn't have an "authority" body?" Or might they learn to> >fulfill t= hat wish according to other criteria? > >> >Susan's ethos question and your= response, Doug, were also in the back of> >my head as I read through NCTE'= s Inbox this morning, esp. the section on> >the NCTE blogs...the ones where= participants posted responses to NCTE in> >NYC? Traci Gardner's response b= log addressed the question of teachers> >blogging: should teachers be blogg= ing and/or participating on social> >networking sites? I guess some school = systems are urging teachers to> >avoid both.> >> >Doesn't it seem as if par= t of the concern stems from issues of> >embodiment--life outside of school,= life as something other than a> >talking head? (I remember when I was in g= rade school--I saw my second> >grade teacher in the grocery store, and I wa= s shocked. What? Teachers> >buy food?)> >> >Fascinating and important, all = of this.> >> >Kris> >> >> >> >----- Original Message -----> >From: Doug Dow= ns > >Date: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:57 am> >Subject= : Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve> >To: teaching_composit= ion@mailman.eppg.com> >> >> Well put, Kris. It only took the Roman Catholic= Church 'til this> >> century to apologize for believing Aristotle over Gal= ileo on> >> astronomy.> >> I don't hear enough rhetoricians admit that he w= as simply, flatly> >> wrongabout ethos. Or, perhaps, that he was speaking o= f how he> >> *wished* it> >> were rather than how it *is*. In the flesh and= blood world,> >> everythingwe know about the rhetor -- not simply the rhet= or as they> >> appear in> >> their text or, more broadly, in the delivery o= f their text,> >> matters. > >>> >> Of course, it's easier to see that, may= be, in a visual and electronic> >> world than it was in a world where almos= t all rhetoric took place> >> in-person and from memory.> >>> >> Usually we= can think about ethos as a matter of identification with> >> image -- if I= the rhetor resemble (particularly in values and ways of> >> being) you the= audience, I likely have high ethos. What's interesting> >> about "right" b= odies and ethos is that rather than identification with> >> how the audienc= e *is*, ethos may derive from identification with what> >> the audience *wa= nts*. . . . But then, of course, ethos is always> >> derived from being wha= t the audience wishes it were rather than> >> what it> > > necessarily is.>= >>> >> Cheers --> >> Doug> >>> >>> >> Dr. Doug Downs> >> Asst. Professor, = Composition & Rhetoric> >> Writing Program Chair> >> Dept. of English and L= iterature> >> Utah Valley State College> >> 800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT = 84058> >> LA 126g> >> 801-863-8572> >>> >>> >> >>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" <= kfleckenstein@fsu.edu> 11/27/2007 2:42 AM> >> >>>> >> You know, tho', Susan= , even Aristotelian ethos had a material aspect,> >> one related to the bod= y through eunoia, or friendliness. > >> Regardless of> >> A's saying that g= ood character is created only through the words of a> > > speech, he also p= oints to the importance of creating a physical> >> appearance that establis= hes friendliness. Even delivery has a role to> >> play in ethos. > >>> >> S= o I don't think you're off the mark to consider bodies as part of our> >> r= hetorical toolbox. > >>> >> Maybe the problem is that bodies matter, but th= at bodies matter in> >> potentially negative and pejorative ways; i.e., bec= ause you do not> >> possess the "right" body, you can't make that argument = (or you can't> >> make that argument persuasively). > >>> >> Perhaps this c= ultural reality constitutes another important area of> >> critical engageme= nt for our students and for us as teachers?> >>> >> Kris> >>> >>> >> ----- = Original Message -----> >> From: Susan Miller-Cochran > >> Date: Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:41 pm> >> Subject: RE: [Teaching_C= omposition] responses to steve> >> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.co= m> >>> >> > Kristie,> >> >> >> > Thank you for such a marvelous, thought-pr= ovoking module. In the> >> > spirit of> >> > sharing anecdotal evidence of = (dis)embodied writing, I started> >> > thinkingabout some of my own teachin= g practices...perhaps with a> >> > bit of chagrin. I> >> > thought about ho= w our bodies, or how our bodies are perceived by> >> > others, can> >> > si= lence us and limit the ways in which we "can" use language. And> >> I> >> >= thoughtof the discussions I have had with my students about> >> > developi= ng ethos in an> >> > argument--how we can/'t make certain arguments because= of who we> >> > are or how> >> > our bodies are represented....discussions= that often end with> >> > statementslike, "You might have trouble making t= hat argument."> >> What> >> > I'm often saying> >> > to students, without d= irectly saying it, is "You might have> >> trouble> >> > makingthat argument= because of how you are seen by others." I> >> don't> >> > want to say> >> = > that out loud, but that's often what I mean. And I'm embarrassed> >> to> = >> > admitit.> >> >> >> > I'm not sure where my thoughts are going with thi= s, but you've> >> > given me> >> > cause to rethink the ways that I approac= h these kinds of> >> > discussions with my> >> > students.> >> >> >> > Enou= gh of my rambling for now. :)> >> >> >> > Susan> >> >> >> > -----Original M= essage-----> >> > From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com> >> > [= mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of> >> > Kris= tieFleckenstein> >> > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:35 PM> >> > To: tea= ching_composition@mailman.eppg.com> >> > Subject: [Teaching_Composition] re= sponses to steve> >> >> >> > Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received = your post. I found> >> > it at the> >> > end of Kathy's. So I did a little = cutting and pasting.> >> >> >> > Here's what you wrote.> >> >> >> > Kristie= 's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General> >> > Educationcomm= ittee at my school proposed that courses satisfying> >> > the college's> >>= > diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more> >> about>= >> > howstudents negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital> >> > e= nvironments. It> >> > seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was be= ing asked.> >> >> >> > Here's my response.> >> >> >> > I think you're right= . It is, at heart, an embodiment question,> >> and> >> > one we> >> > need = to keep reminding ourselves to ask.> >> >> >> > It reminds me of Coco Fusco= 's work in _The Bodies that Were Not> >> Ours_.> >> > (Fusco's a performanc= e artist at Columbia U, and I've just> >> > discovered her> >> > work.) She= 's concerned that digital technologies too easily lead to> >> > disembodime= nt in a couple ways. First, we users tend to forget> >> > that all> >> > th= at hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low wage> > > > asse= mble-line factory (she did 3 years of research in the> >> factories> >> > a= longthe Mexican border). AND we tend to assume that bodies> >> don't> >> > = matter on line> >> > (back to the New Yorker cartoon-the one with the two d= ogs, one at> >> a> >> > computerterminal who tells the other one that no on= e knows you're> >> a> >> > dog online).> >> > Fusco wants to keep reminding= us that, yes, bodies do matter,> >> > especiallyonline.> >> >> >> > It see= ms as if your school has gotten this message. So how do we> > > > answertha= t question?> >> >> >> > I know there are folks who are looking at the way i= n which we> >> carry> >> > realworld biases with us into virtual world spac= es. But does> >> > anyone on the list> >> > know of research that looks at = the way our minority students> >> configure> >> > themselves in online envi= ronments? And, if not, how do we go> >> about> >> > gettinganswers to these= questions?> >> >> >> > Ideas?> >> >> >> > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associa= te Professor> >> > Department of English> >> > Florida State University> >>= > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way> >> > P. O. Box 3061580> >> > Tal= lahassee, FL 32306-1580> >> > 850.644.3530 (O)> >> > 850.644.0811 (F)> >> >= kfleckenstein@fsu.edu> >> >> >> > ________________________________________= _______> >> > Teaching_Composition maillist - > >> >> >>> >Teaching_Composi= tion@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_comp= osition> >>> >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, please visit> >> > http://mailman.e= ppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and> >> > updateyour informat= ion.> >> >> >> >> >> > _______________________________________________> >> = > Teaching_Composition maillist - > >> >> >>> >Teaching_Composition@mailman= .eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition> >>>= >> >> >> > To unsubscribe, please visit> >> > http://mailman.eppg.com/mail= man/listinfo/teaching_composition and> >> > update your information.> >> >>= >>> >> Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor> >> Department of Engl= ish> >> Florida State University> >> 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way= > >> P. O. Box 3061580> >> Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580> >> 850.644.3530 (O)>= >> 850.644.0811 (F)> >> kfleckenstein@fsu.edu> >> ________________________= _______________________> >> Teaching_Composition maillist - > >> Teaching_C= omposition@mailman.eppg.com> >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/te= aching_composition> >>> >> To unsubscribe, please visit> >> http://mailman.= eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and> >> update your informat= ion.> >> _______________________________________________> >> Teaching_Compo= sition maillist - > >>> >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailma= n.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition> >>> >> To unsubscribe, pl= ease visit> >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_compositio= n and> >> update your information.> >>> >> >Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associ= ate Professor> >Department of English> >Florida State University> >405 Will= iams Bldg., 631 University Way> >P. O. Box 3061580> >Tallahassee, FL 32306-= 1580> >850.644.3530 (O)> >850.644.0811 (F)> >kfleckenstein@fsu.edu> >______= _________________________________________> >Teaching_Composition maillist -= Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com> >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/li= stinfo/teaching_composition> >> >To unsubscribe, please visit> >http://mail= man.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and update> >your inform= ation.> >> >_______________________________________________> >Teaching_Comp= osition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com> >http://mailman.e= ppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition> >> >To unsubscribe, please v= isit > >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >= >update your information.> > > -- > > > Patricia Freitag Ericsson, PhD> Di= rector, Digital Technology and Culture Program> Assistant Professor, Depart= ment of English> Washington State University> Pullman, WA 99164> ericsson@w= su.edu> _______________________________________________> Teaching_Compositi= on maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com> http://mailman.eppg.co= m/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition> > To unsubscribe, please visit htt= p://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and update your = information. _________________________________________________________________ Appelez vos amis de PC =E0 PC -- C'EST GRATUIT http://get.live.com/messenger/overview= --_7a11f11f-a83a-4c7c-889a-96765bbed3e8_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think that I (my writing) am (is) so very NOT a body here in this venue. = I (it) am (is), sometimes, but not here. I have no articulate support for t= his claim. I think it has something to do with community...I don't know wha= t y'all eat for lunch, I guess?
 
But I LOVE THIS THREAD, and I wanted to respond to Patty's last two paragra= phs, about texts having bodies and being excrement. I submit to&n= bsp;her lit review, in addition to Lupton and Miller, Deleuze and Guattari:= text-as-body is a writer/rhetor+writing+reader "assemblage." And what abou= t when the writing exists as its own body (it outlives, transcends wri= ter/rhetor?) It is a "body without organs"?
 
--Kate McKinney (NCSU)
 
PS Dr. Anson--I'm scared of Facebook, but I don't know what I think ab= out students seeing/participating with me in "disembodied" social-rhetorica= l situations... Everything about me as body (and I associate online identit= ies, my Flickr account, for example, with me as body) is empowering, to me.= I feel like it GIVES me authority, whereas others seem to think they = lose authority when such things are exposed. I wonder if that different per= ception of power energy transfer is the difference between a mindset of (Mo= dern) Author-ity and (postmodern) auteur-ity? OR---hang the hooey, I'm a ne= w teacher and I've never been stalked online by a student, before...?
 
> Finally, texts have bodies, no? I'm thinking about Lupton an= d
> Miller's essay "Body of the Book." "All objects manufactured for= use
> are extensions of the body: food, furniture, shelter, and too= ls do
> not lie in a region safely 'outside' the body, but instead a= re
> continuations of the body, turning it inside out." They ask, "B= ut
> what if one were to see writing as an extension of the body, no=
> different in essence from an artificial limb or a contact lense? = Like
> a chair supporting the human skeleton, writing supplments the= body's
> capacity to speak: it is permanent rather than ephemeral, = it
> withstands movements in place and time, and it remains readable= in
> the absence of it's author."
>
> Later Lupton/Mil= ler add the part that has pretty much shocked my
> students and made= them pay attention: "As the end-product of the
> so-called 'thought= process,' writging thus resembles excrement. It
> is also akin to h= air, finger nails, and the surface of the skin--each
> is a part of = the body that is continually regenerated yet
> biologically dead, de= tachable, disposable. Writing is like blook,
> sweat, semen, saliva,= and otehr substances that the body periodically
> produces and elim= inates."
>
> Patty
>
>
>
> >This= reminds me of something else we often have to work really hard on
> = >with students -- though maybe it just spins it back ground to your
&= gt; >original points, Kris -- helping students see the bodies behind tex= ts.
> >Texts are people talking, ultimately, and it changes the wa= y students
> >imagine the text to imagine ("flesh out"?) the peopl= e behind them. In
> >my Comp II classes, I have students read Caro= l Berkenkotter's long-ago
> >C's article following Donald Murray t= hrough his invention process. The
> >piece ends with a reflection = by Murray himself (an early example of a
> >research design allowi= ng the "subject" to speak back to the researcher's
> >story) -- an= d it really bends students' perspectives. They also read
> >Murray= 's piece "All Writing is Autobiography," and have the double
> >ex= perience both of Murray talking about himself and (now) reading a
> &= gt;eulogy written by one of his longtime proteges at the Boston Globe.
&= gt; >>From experiences like that -- getting students to pay attention= to *how*
> >they "embody" -- or don't -- the writers of their tex= ts, we work out to
> >other texts where it's harder to imagine the= writer in the flesh. (It
> >helps to have had lunch with the writ= ers, so you can tell students what
> >they eat.)
> >
= > >So I love the thinking you're doing here about audience inventing = rhetor
> >(rhetor-audience-invoked?) . . . and who has to have wha= t bodies to do
> >which things . . . and how at one level, the ent= ire point of writing has
> >always been to *disembody* the writer,= so their words can be where they
> >are not -- and yet good blogg= ing software allows photo uploads (not to
> >mention Facebook/etc.= ) and there is Haas and Takayoshi's developing
> >research on how = emoticons in chat are used as much to re-embody the
> >writer (ret= urn them lost facial gesture) as to clarify meaning. . . .
> >For = a guy who's too much in his head, this is kinda mindbending . . .
> &= gt;
> >Cheers --
> >Doug
> >
> >
>= ; >Dr. Doug Downs
> >Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetori= c
> >Writing Program Coordinator
> >Dept. of English and = Literature
> >Utah Valley State College
> >800 W Universi= ty Pkwy, Orem UT 84058
> >LA 126g
> >801-863-8572
>= >>>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" <kfleckenstein@fsu.edu> 11/2= 8/07 4:45 AM >>>
> >So persuasion is a kind of wish fulfi= llment? Instead of the rhetor
> >inventing the audience, the audie= nce invents the rhetor (and in the
> >process become what they ima= gine?). Hoot! Now that has some
> >interesting possibilities as a = thought experiment, esp. when we switch
> >it to the class and con= sider the teacher as rhetor and the students as
> >audience.
&g= t; >
> >What's the wish students want fulfilled and how do they= "invent" the
> >teacher? I suspect that answers to those question= s will shift as
> >students move through the public school system.= I also suspect that the
> >"embodied" teaching experiences of tea= chers in the K-3 classrooms are
> >different from those in the 4-6= classrooms (and different yet again from
> >the 7-8, 9-12 classro= oms). Maybe because the "wishes" are different?
> >
> >An= d what happens when that wish fulfillment is stymied by the teacher's
&g= t; >body? For instance, I just had a grad student in my office yesterday=
> >chatting about a variety of things. And out of the blue (or wh= at seemed
> >to me the blue), she asked me if my height ever cause= d me problems in
> >the classroom (I'm 5' 2"). She said she though= t her students saw her as
> >short (she's 5') and thus without aut= hority.
> >
> >Does that mean, then, that students who w= ish an "authority" teacher
> >might be unable to fulfill that wish= with a teacher who does not
> >physically meet their vision of au= thority? Saying something like, "Oh,
> >that teacher doesn't have = an "authority" body?" Or might they learn to
> >fulfill that wish = according to other criteria?
> >
> >Susan's ethos questi= on and your response, Doug, were also in the back of
> >my head as= I read through NCTE's Inbox this morning, esp. the section on
> >= the NCTE blogs...the ones where participants posted responses to NCTE in> >NYC? Traci Gardner's response blog addressed the question of teac= hers
> >blogging: should teachers be blogging and/or participating= on social
> >networking sites? I guess some school systems are ur= ging teachers to
> >avoid both.
> >
> >Doesn't i= t seem as if part of the concern stems from issues of
> >embodimen= t--life outside of school, life as something other than a
> >talki= ng head? (I remember when I was in grade school--I saw my second
> &g= t;grade teacher in the grocery store, and I was shocked. What? Teachers
= > >buy food?)
> >
> >Fascinating and important, all= of this.
> >
> >Kris
> >
> >
> &= gt;
> >----- Original Message -----
> >From: Doug Downs &= lt;DOWNSDO@uvsc.edu>
> >Date: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:57 = am
> >Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve> >To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
> >
> &= gt;> Well put, Kris. It only took the Roman Catholic Church 'til this> >> century to apologize for believing Aristotle over Galileo on=
> >> astronomy.
> >> I don't hear enough rhetorici= ans admit that he was simply, flatly
> >> wrongabout ethos. Or,= perhaps, that he was speaking of how he
> >> *wished* it
&g= t; >> were rather than how it *is*. In the flesh and blood world,
= > >> everythingwe know about the rhetor -- not simply the rhetor a= s they
> >> appear in
> >> their text or, more broa= dly, in the delivery of their text,
> >> matters.
> >= >
> >> Of course, it's easier to see that, maybe, in a visua= l and electronic
> >> world than it was in a world where almost= all rhetoric took place
> >> in-person and from memory.
>= ; >>
> >> Usually we can think about ethos as a matter of= identification with
> >> image -- if I the rhetor resemble (pa= rticularly in values and ways of
> >> being) you the audience, = I likely have high ethos. What's interesting
> >> about "right"= bodies and ethos is that rather than identification with
> >> = how the audience *is*, ethos may derive from identification with what
&g= t; >> the audience *wants*. . . . But then, of course, ethos is alway= s
> >> derived from being what the audience wishes it were rath= er than
> >> what it
> > > necessarily is.
> = >>
> >> Cheers --
> >> Doug
> >><= BR>> >>
> >> Dr. Doug Downs
> >> Asst. Pro= fessor, Composition & Rhetoric
> >> Writing Program Chair> >> Dept. of English and Literature
> >> Utah Valle= y State College
> >> 800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058
&g= t; >> LA 126g
> >> 801-863-8572
> >>
> = >>
> >> >>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" <kfleckens= tein@fsu.edu> 11/27/2007 2:42 AM
> >> >>>
> &= gt;> You know, tho', Susan, even Aristotelian ethos had a material aspec= t,
> >> one related to the body through eunoia, or friendliness= .
> >> Regardless of
> >> A's saying that good cha= racter is created only through the words of a
> > > speech, he = also points to the importance of creating a physical
> >> appea= rance that establishes friendliness. Even delivery has a role to
> &g= t;> play in ethos.
> >>
> >> So I don't think y= ou're off the mark to consider bodies as part of our
> >> rheto= rical toolbox.
> >>
> >> Maybe the problem is that= bodies matter, but that bodies matter in
> >> potentially nega= tive and pejorative ways; i.e., because you do not
> >> possess= the "right" body, you can't make that argument (or you can't
> >&= gt; make that argument persuasively).
> >>
> >> Pe= rhaps this cultural reality constitutes another important area of
> &= gt;> critical engagement for our students and for us as teachers?
>= ; >>
> >> Kris
> >>
> >>
> = >> ----- Original Message -----
> >> From: Susan Miller-C= ochran <susan_miller@ncsu.edu>
> >> Date: Sunday, Novembe= r 25, 2007 9:41 pm
> >> Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] res= ponses to steve
> >> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com<= BR>> >>
> >> > Kristie,
> >> >
&g= t; >> > Thank you for such a marvelous, thought-provoking module. = In the
> >> > spirit of
> >> > sharing anecdo= tal evidence of (dis)embodied writing, I started
> >> > thin= kingabout some of my own teaching practices...perhaps with a
> >&g= t; > bit of chagrin. I
> >> > thought about how our bodie= s, or how our bodies are perceived by
> >> > others, can
= > >> > silence us and limit the ways in which we "can" use lang= uage. And
> >> I
> >> > thoughtof the discussion= s I have had with my students about
> >> > developing ethos = in an
> >> > argument--how we can/'t make certain arguments = because of who we
> >> > are or how
> >> > ou= r bodies are represented....discussions that often end with
> >>= ; > statementslike, "You might have trouble making that argument."
&g= t; >> What
> >> > I'm often saying
> >> &g= t; to students, without directly saying it, is "You might have
> >= > trouble
> >> > makingthat argument because of how you a= re seen by others." I
> >> don't
> >> > want to = say
> >> > that out loud, but that's often what I mean. And = I'm embarrassed
> >> to
> >> > admitit.
> = >> >
> >> > I'm not sure where my thoughts are goin= g with this, but you've
> >> > given me
> >> >= ; cause to rethink the ways that I approach these kinds of
> >>= > discussions with my
> >> > students.
> >> = >
> >> > Enough of my rambling for now. :)
> >&g= t; >
> >> > Susan
> >> >
> >> = > -----Original Message-----
> >> > From: teaching_compos= ition-admin@mailman.eppg.com
> >> > [mailto:teaching_composi= tion-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of
> >> > KristieFlec= kenstein
> >> > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:35 PM
&= gt; >> > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
> >>= ; > Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve
> >> = >
> >> > Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received yo= ur post. I found
> >> > it at the
> >> > end = of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting.
> >> >> >> > Here's what you wrote.
> >> >
> &g= t;> > Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General<= BR>> >> > Educationcommittee at my school proposed that courses= satisfying
> >> > the college's
> >> > diver= sity requirement not be taught online until we knew more
> >> a= bout
> >> > howstudents negotiate racial and ethnic identiti= es in digital
> >> > environments. It
> >> > = seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked.
> >= ;> >
> >> > Here's my response.
> >> ><= BR>> >> > I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment = question,
> >> and
> >> > one we
> >>= ; > need to keep reminding ourselves to ask.
> >> >
&g= t; >> > It reminds me of Coco Fusco's work in _The Bodies that Wer= e Not
> >> Ours_.
> >> > (Fusco's a performance = artist at Columbia U, and I've just
> >> > discovered her> >> > work.) She's concerned that digital technologies too ea= sily lead to
> >> > disembodiment in a couple ways. First, w= e users tend to forget
> >> > that all
> >> >= that hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low wage
> = > > > assemble-line factory (she did 3 years of research in the> >> factories
> >> > alongthe Mexican border). AN= D we tend to assume that bodies
> >> don't
> >> >= ; matter on line
> >> > (back to the New Yorker cartoon-the = one with the two dogs, one at
> >> a
> >> > comp= uterterminal who tells the other one that no one knows you're
> >&= gt; a
> >> > dog online).
> >> > Fusco wants = to keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do matter,
> >> > esp= eciallyonline.
> >> >
> >> > It seems as if y= our school has gotten this message. So how do we
> > > > ans= werthat question?
> >> >
> >> > I know there = are folks who are looking at the way in which we
> >> carry
= > >> > realworld biases with us into virtual world spaces. But = does
> >> > anyone on the list
> >> > know of= research that looks at the way our minority students
> >> conf= igure
> >> > themselves in online environments? And, if not,= how do we go
> >> about
> >> > gettinganswers t= o these questions?
> >> >
> >> > Ideas?
&g= t; >> >
> >> > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate P= rofessor
> >> > Department of English
> >> > = Florida State University
> >> > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 Univ= ersity Way
> >> > P. O. Box 3061580
> >> > Ta= llahassee, FL 32306-1580
> >> > 850.644.3530 (O)
> >= ;> > 850.644.0811 (F)
> >> > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu
= > >> >
> >> > __________________________________= _____________
> >> > Teaching_Composition maillist -
>= ; >> >
> >>
> >Teaching_Composition@mailman.e= ppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition
>= ; >>
> >> >
> >> > To unsubscribe, plea= se visit
> >> > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/tea= ching_composition and
> >> > updateyour information.
>= >> >
> >> >
> >> > ________________= _______________________________
> >> > Teaching_Composition = maillist -
> >> >
> >>
> >Teaching_Com= position@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_= composition
> >>
> >> >
> >> > To= unsubscribe, please visit
> >> > http://mailman.eppg.com/ma= ilman/listinfo/teaching_composition and
> >> > update your i= nformation.
> >> >
> >>
> >> Kristie= S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor
> >> Department of Englis= h
> >> Florida State University
> >> 405 Williams B= ldg., 631 University Way
> >> P. O. Box 3061580
> >>= ; Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580
> >> 850.644.3530 (O)
> >= > 850.644.0811 (F)
> >> kfleckenstein@fsu.edu
> >&g= t; _______________________________________________
> >> Teachin= g_Composition maillist -
> >> Teaching_Composition@mailman.epp= g.com
> >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_co= mposition
> >>
> >> To unsubscribe, please visit> >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_compositio= n and
> >> update your information.
> >> __________= _____________________________________
> >> Teaching_Composition= maillist -
> >>
> >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg= .comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition
> &= gt;>
> >> To unsubscribe, please visit
> >> http= ://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and
> >&= gt; update your information.
> >>
> >
> >Kris= tie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor
> >Department of English<= BR>> >Florida State University
> >405 Williams Bldg., 631 Un= iversity Way
> >P. O. Box 3061580
> >Tallahassee, FL 3230= 6-1580
> >850.644.3530 (O)
> >850.644.0811 (F)
> &g= t;kfleckenstein@fsu.edu
> >_______________________________________= ________
> >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@m= ailman.eppg.com
> >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teachi= ng_composition
> >
> >To unsubscribe, please visit
>= ; >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and upd= ate
> >your information.
> >
> >________________= _______________________________
> >Teaching_Composition maillist -= Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com
> >http://mailman.eppg.com/= mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition
> >
> >To unsubscri= be, please visit
> >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teac= hing_composition and
> >update your information.
>
>=
> --
>
>
> Patricia Freitag Ericsson, PhD
&= gt; Director, Digital Technology and Culture Program
> Assistant Prof= essor, Department of English
> Washington State University
> Pu= llman, WA 99164
> ericsson@wsu.edu
> __________________________= _____________________
> Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Comp= osition@mailman.eppg.com
> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/t= eaching_composition
>
> To unsubscribe, please visit http://ma= ilman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and update your inform= ation.



Appelez vos amis de PC =E0 PC -- C'EST GRATUIT Essayez-le= maintenant ! = --_7a11f11f-a83a-4c7c-889a-96765bbed3e8_-- From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Thu Nov 29 09:47:29 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Kristie Fleckenstein) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 04:47:29 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve In-Reply-To: References: <474D126C0200001A0002DB16@mail-out.email.uvsc.edu> Message-ID: >The Classical rhetoric we lean on here was tons about embodiment, no? I mean a lot of it was thought out/articulated in relationship to speaking in person--directily embodied. I think so, too. I remember reading a couple of references in James Davidson's _Courtesans and Fishcakes_ about the rhetorical strategy of "dropping one's cloak": where the rhetor stripped to the buff as part of his speech (and Davidson includes comments of participants that suggested the ploy was not successful!). Hawhee's article in CE on classical rhetorical and athleticism tends to confirm a similar intertwining of bodies and rhetoric. Same goes for Aristotle, too. I remember reading an article by Amelie Rorty where she talks about Aristotle's "biopsychology." She says that we shouldn't read him, including the _Rhetoric_, outside the parameters of that biopsychology. So the rhetorical proofs--logos as well as pathos and ethos--are psychological and biological simultaneously. > Finally, texts have bodies, no? I'm thinking about Lupton and > Miller's essay "Body of the Book." I love this idea, too. But I have a test case. What do we do about ghostwriters? (When I first thought of this, I was thinking of Deborah Brandt's fairly recent CE article on ghostwriters, but we could also go back to classical logographers--the first ghostwriters!--and reexamine that phenomenon within the context of biopsychology.) Whose body? Last point. If writing is an extension of the body, what is reading? Kris ----- Original Message ----- From: Patricia Freitag Ericsson Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:04 am Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > Perhaps random, but some thoughts and the final one might be the > most interesting/important. > > The Classical rhetoric we lean on here was tons about embodiment, > no? > I mean a lot of it was thought out/articulated in relationship to > speaking in person--directily embodied. > > There are bodies behind texts, yet, but how about bodies as texts? > That seems to be part of what we're talking about. We read the > body > behind the texts as texts. I showed a short cartoon as a part of > class a few years ago, and after it a student said "I can't believe > a > person who looks like you would show a cartoon like that." The > student thought s/he knew me by the way I had appeared in class > that > semester. > > All of my teachers in grade school were nuns--ones who wore the old > traditional habits. Talk about issues with embodiment!! When a > tiny > whisp of hair appeared from under the headress thing, we were all > abuzz. After school, they disappeared into the convent--a > mysterious > place. Imagining them as having real bodies was almost impossible. > > Finally, texts have bodies, no? I'm thinking about Lupton and > Miller's essay "Body of the Book." "All objects manufactured for > use > are extensions of the body: food, furniture, shelter, and tools do > not lie in a region safely 'outside' the body, but instead are > continuations of the body, turning it inside out." They ask, "But > what if one were to see writing as an extension of the body, no > different in essence from an artificial limb or a contact lense? > Like > a chair supporting the human skeleton, writing supplments the > body's > capacity to speak: it is permanent rather than ephemeral, it > withstands movements in place and time, and it remains readable in > the absence of it's author." > > Later Lupton/Miller add the part that has pretty much shocked my > students and made them pay attention: "As the end-product of the > so-called 'thought process,' writging thus resembles excrement. It > is also akin to hair, finger nails, and the surface of the skin-- > each > is a part of the body that is continually regenerated yet > biologically dead, detachable, disposable. Writing is like blook, > sweat, semen, saliva, and otehr substances that the body > periodically > produces and eliminates." > > Patty > > > > >This reminds me of something else we often have to work really > hard on > >with students -- though maybe it just spins it back ground to your > >original points, Kris -- helping students see the bodies behind > texts.>Texts are people talking, ultimately, and it changes the way > students>imagine the text to imagine ("flesh out"?) the people > behind them. In > >my Comp II classes, I have students read Carol Berkenkotter's long- > ago>C's article following Donald Murray through his invention > process. The > >piece ends with a reflection by Murray himself (an early example > of a > >research design allowing the "subject" to speak back to the > researcher's>story) -- and it really bends students' perspectives. > They also read > >Murray's piece "All Writing is Autobiography," and have the double > >experience both of Murray talking about himself and (now) reading a > >eulogy written by one of his longtime proteges at the Boston Globe. > >>From experiences like that -- getting students to pay attention > to *how* > >they "embody" -- or don't -- the writers of their texts, we work > out to > >other texts where it's harder to imagine the writer in the flesh. > (It>helps to have had lunch with the writers, so you can tell > students what > >they eat.) > > > >So I love the thinking you're doing here about audience inventing > rhetor>(rhetor-audience-invoked?) . . . and who has to have what > bodies to do > >which things . . . and how at one level, the entire point of > writing has > >always been to *disembody* the writer, so their words can be where > they>are not -- and yet good blogging software allows photo uploads > (not to > >mention Facebook/etc.) and there is Haas and Takayoshi's developing > >research on how emoticons in chat are used as much to re-embody the > >writer (return them lost facial gesture) as to clarify meaning. . > . . > >For a guy who's too much in his head, this is kinda mindbending . > . . > > > >Cheers -- > >Doug > > > > > >Dr. Doug Downs > >Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric > >Writing Program Coordinator > >Dept. of English and Literature > >Utah Valley State College > >800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 > >LA 126g > >801-863-8572 > >>>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" 11/28/07 4:45 > AM >>> > >So persuasion is a kind of wish fulfillment? Instead of the rhetor > >inventing the audience, the audience invents the rhetor (and in the > >process become what they imagine?). Hoot! Now that has some > >interesting possibilities as a thought experiment, esp. when we > switch>it to the class and consider the teacher as rhetor and the > students as > >audience. > > > >What's the wish students want fulfilled and how do they "invent" the > >teacher? I suspect that answers to those questions will shift as > >students move through the public school system. I also suspect > that the > >"embodied" teaching experiences of teachers in the K-3 classrooms are > >different from those in the 4-6 classrooms (and different yet > again from > >the 7-8, 9-12 classrooms). Maybe because the "wishes" are different? > > > >And what happens when that wish fulfillment is stymied by the > teacher's>body? For instance, I just had a grad student in my > office yesterday > >chatting about a variety of things. And out of the blue (or what > seemed>to me the blue), she asked me if my height ever caused me > problems in > >the classroom (I'm 5' 2"). She said she thought her students saw > her as > >short (she's 5') and thus without authority. > > > >Does that mean, then, that students who wish an "authority" teacher > >might be unable to fulfill that wish with a teacher who does not > >physically meet their vision of authority? Saying something like, > "Oh,>that teacher doesn't have an "authority" body?" Or might they > learn to > >fulfill that wish according to other criteria? > > > >Susan's ethos question and your response, Doug, were also in the > back of > >my head as I read through NCTE's Inbox this morning, esp. the > section on > >the NCTE blogs...the ones where participants posted responses to > NCTE in > >NYC? Traci Gardner's response blog addressed the question of > teachers>blogging: should teachers be blogging and/or participating > on social > >networking sites? I guess some school systems are urging teachers to > >avoid both. > > > >Doesn't it seem as if part of the concern stems from issues of > >embodiment--life outside of school, life as something other than a > >talking head? (I remember when I was in grade school--I saw my > second>grade teacher in the grocery store, and I was shocked. > What? Teachers > >buy food?) > > > >Fascinating and important, all of this. > > > >Kris > > > > > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Doug Downs > >Date: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:57 am > >Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > >To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > > >> Well put, Kris. It only took the Roman Catholic Church 'til this > >> century to apologize for believing Aristotle over Galileo on > >> astronomy. > >> I don't hear enough rhetoricians admit that he was simply, flatly > >> wrongabout ethos. Or, perhaps, that he was speaking of how he > >> *wished* it > >> were rather than how it *is*. In the flesh and blood world, > >> everythingwe know about the rhetor -- not simply the rhetor as > they>> appear in > >> their text or, more broadly, in the delivery of their text, > >> matters. > >> > >> Of course, it's easier to see that, maybe, in a visual and > electronic>> world than it was in a world where almost all > rhetoric took place > >> in-person and from memory. > >> > >> Usually we can think about ethos as a matter of identification > with>> image -- if I the rhetor resemble (particularly in values > and ways of > >> being) you the audience, I likely have high ethos. What's > interesting>> about "right" bodies and ethos is that rather than > identification with > >> how the audience *is*, ethos may derive from identification > with what > >> the audience *wants*. . . . But then, of course, ethos is always > >> derived from being what the audience wishes it were rather than > >> what it > > > necessarily is. > >> > >> Cheers -- > >> Doug > >> > >> > >> Dr. Doug Downs > >> Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric > >> Writing Program Chair > >> Dept. of English and Literature > >> Utah Valley State College > >> 800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 > >> LA 126g > >> 801-863-8572 > >> > >> > >> >>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" 11/27/2007 > 2:42 AM > >> >>> > >> You know, tho', Susan, even Aristotelian ethos had a material > aspect,>> one related to the body through eunoia, or friendliness. > >> Regardless of > >> A's saying that good character is created only through the > words of a > > > speech, he also points to the importance of creating a physical > >> appearance that establishes friendliness. Even delivery has a > role to > >> play in ethos. > >> > >> So I don't think you're off the mark to consider bodies as part > of our > >> rhetorical toolbox. > >> > >> Maybe the problem is that bodies matter, but that bodies matter in > >> potentially negative and pejorative ways; i.e., because you do not > >> possess the "right" body, you can't make that argument (or you > can't>> make that argument persuasively). > >> > >> Perhaps this cultural reality constitutes another important > area of > >> critical engagement for our students and for us as teachers? > >> > >> Kris > >> > >> > >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> From: Susan Miller-Cochran > >> Date: Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:41 pm > >> Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > >> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >> > >> > Kristie, > >> > > >> > Thank you for such a marvelous, thought-provoking module. In the > >> > spirit of > >> > sharing anecdotal evidence of (dis)embodied writing, I started > >> > thinkingabout some of my own teaching practices...perhaps > with a > >> > bit of chagrin. I > >> > thought about how our bodies, or how our bodies are perceived by > >> > others, can > >> > silence us and limit the ways in which we "can" use language. > And>> I > >> > thoughtof the discussions I have had with my students about > >> > developing ethos in an > >> > argument--how we can/'t make certain arguments because of who we > >> > are or how > >> > our bodies are represented....discussions that often end with > >> > statementslike, "You might have trouble making that argument." > >> What > >> > I'm often saying > >> > to students, without directly saying it, is "You might have > >> trouble > >> > makingthat argument because of how you are seen by others." I > >> don't > >> > want to say > >> > that out loud, but that's often what I mean. And I'm embarrassed > >> to > >> > admitit. > >> > > >> > I'm not sure where my thoughts are going with this, but you've > >> > given me > >> > cause to rethink the ways that I approach these kinds of > >> > discussions with my > >> > students. > >> > > >> > Enough of my rambling for now. :) > >> > > >> > Susan > >> > > >> > -----Original Message----- > >> > From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > >> > [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On > Behalf Of > >> > KristieFleckenstein > >> > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:35 PM > >> > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >> > Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > >> > > >> > Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received your post. I > found>> > it at the > >> > end of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting. > >> > > >> > Here's what you wrote. > >> > > >> > Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General > >> > Educationcommittee at my school proposed that courses satisfying > >> > the college's > >> > diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more > >> about > >> > howstudents negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital > >> > environments. It > >> > seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. > >> > > >> > Here's my response. > >> > > >> > I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment question, > >> and > >> > one we > >> > need to keep reminding ourselves to ask. > >> > > >> > It reminds me of Coco Fusco's work in _The Bodies that Were Not > >> Ours_. > >> > (Fusco's a performance artist at Columbia U, and I've just > >> > discovered her > >> > work.) She's concerned that digital technologies too easily > lead to > >> > disembodiment in a couple ways. First, we users tend to forget > >> > that all > >> > that hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low > wage> > > assemble-line factory (she did 3 years of research in the > >> factories > >> > alongthe Mexican border). AND we tend to assume that bodies > >> don't > >> > matter on line > >> > (back to the New Yorker cartoon-the one with the two dogs, > one at > >> a > >> > computerterminal who tells the other one that no one knows > you're>> a > >> > dog online). > >> > Fusco wants to keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do matter, > >> > especiallyonline. > >> > > >> > It seems as if your school has gotten this message. So how > do we > > > > answerthat question? > >> > > >> > I know there are folks who are looking at the way in which we > >> carry > >> > realworld biases with us into virtual world spaces. But does > >> > anyone on the list > >> > know of research that looks at the way our minority students > >> configure > >> > themselves in online environments? And, if not, how do we go > >> about > >> > gettinganswers to these questions? > >> > > >> > Ideas? > >> > > >> > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > >> > Department of English > >> > Florida State University > >> > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > >> > P. O. Box 3061580 > >> > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > >> > 850.644.3530 (O) > >> > 850.644.0811 (F) > >> > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Teaching_Composition maillist - > >> > > >> > >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > >> > >> > > >> > To unsubscribe, please visit > >> > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > and>> > updateyour information. > >> > > >> > > >> > _______________________________________________ > >> > Teaching_Composition maillist - > >> > > >> > >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > >> > >> > > >> > To unsubscribe, please visit > >> > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > and>> > update your information. > >> > > >> > >> Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > >> Department of English > >> Florida State University > >> 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > >> P. O. Box 3061580 > >> Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > >> 850.644.3530 (O) > >> 850.644.0811 (F) > >> kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Teaching_Composition maillist - > >> Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > >> > >> To unsubscribe, please visit > >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > >> update your information. > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Teaching_Composition maillist - > >> > >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > >> > >> To unsubscribe, please visit > >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > >> update your information. > >> > > > >Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > >Department of English > >Florida State University > >405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > >P. O. Box 3061580 > >Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > >850.644.3530 (O) > >850.644.0811 (F) > >kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > >_______________________________________________ > >Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com>http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > > >To unsubscribe, please visit > >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > update>your information. > > > >_______________________________________________ > >Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com>http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > > >To unsubscribe, please visit > >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > >update your information. > > > -- > > > Patricia Freitag Ericsson, PhD > Director, Digital Technology and Culture Program > Assistant Professor, Department of English > Washington State University > Pullman, WA 99164 > ericsson@wsu.edu > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > update your information. > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor Department of English Florida State University 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way P. O. Box 3061580 Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 850.644.3530 (O) 850.644.0811 (F) kfleckenstein@fsu.edu From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Thu Nov 29 15:18:49 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Patricia Freitag Ericsson) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 07:18:49 -0800 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve In-Reply-To: References: <474D126C0200001A0002DB16@mail-out.email.uvsc.edu> Message-ID: Too early on the west coast to be commenting, but my first response to Kris' question is "cannibalism?" I hope I can come up with something better when I'm more awake! Patty > > >Last point. If writing is an extension of the body, what is reading? > >Kris > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Patricia Freitag Ericsson >Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:04 am >Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve >To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >> Perhaps random, but some thoughts and the final one might be the > > most interesting/important. >> >> The Classical rhetoric we lean on here was tons about embodiment, >> no? >> I mean a lot of it was thought out/articulated in relationship to >> speaking in person--directily embodied. >> >> There are bodies behind texts, yet, but how about bodies as texts? >> That seems to be part of what we're talking about. We read the >> body >> behind the texts as texts. I showed a short cartoon as a part of >> class a few years ago, and after it a student said "I can't believe >> a >> person who looks like you would show a cartoon like that." The >> student thought s/he knew me by the way I had appeared in class >> that >> semester. >> >> All of my teachers in grade school were nuns--ones who wore the old >> traditional habits. Talk about issues with embodiment!! When a >> tiny >> whisp of hair appeared from under the headress thing, we were all >> abuzz. After school, they disappeared into the convent--a >> mysterious >> place. Imagining them as having real bodies was almost impossible. >> >> Finally, texts have bodies, no? I'm thinking about Lupton and >> Miller's essay "Body of the Book." "All objects manufactured for >> use >> are extensions of the body: food, furniture, shelter, and tools do >> not lie in a region safely 'outside' the body, but instead are >> continuations of the body, turning it inside out." They ask, "But >> what if one were to see writing as an extension of the body, no >> different in essence from an artificial limb or a contact lense? >> Like >> a chair supporting the human skeleton, writing supplments the >> body's >> capacity to speak: it is permanent rather than ephemeral, it >> withstands movements in place and time, and it remains readable in >> the absence of it's author." >> >> Later Lupton/Miller add the part that has pretty much shocked my >> students and made them pay attention: "As the end-product of the >> so-called 'thought process,' writging thus resembles excrement. It >> is also akin to hair, finger nails, and the surface of the skin-- >> each >> is a part of the body that is continually regenerated yet >> biologically dead, detachable, disposable. Writing is like blook, >> sweat, semen, saliva, and otehr substances that the body >> periodically >> produces and eliminates." >> >> Patty >> >> >> >> >This reminds me of something else we often have to work really >> hard on >> >with students -- though maybe it just spins it back ground to your >> >original points, Kris -- helping students see the bodies behind >> texts.>Texts are people talking, ultimately, and it changes the way >> students>imagine the text to imagine ("flesh out"?) the people >> behind them. In >> >my Comp II classes, I have students read Carol Berkenkotter's long- >> ago>C's article following Donald Murray through his invention >> process. The >> >piece ends with a reflection by Murray himself (an early example >> of a >> >research design allowing the "subject" to speak back to the >> researcher's>story) -- and it really bends students' perspectives. >> They also read >> >Murray's piece "All Writing is Autobiography," and have the double >> >experience both of Murray talking about himself and (now) reading a >> >eulogy written by one of his longtime proteges at the Boston Globe. >> >>From experiences like that -- getting students to pay attention >> to *how* >> >they "embody" -- or don't -- the writers of their texts, we work >> out to > > >other texts where it's harder to imagine the writer in the flesh. >> (It>helps to have had lunch with the writers, so you can tell >> students what >> >they eat.) >> > >> >So I love the thinking you're doing here about audience inventing >> rhetor>(rhetor-audience-invoked?) . . . and who has to have what >> bodies to do >> >which things . . . and how at one level, the entire point of >> writing has >> >always been to *disembody* the writer, so their words can be where >> they>are not -- and yet good blogging software allows photo uploads >> (not to >> >mention Facebook/etc.) and there is Haas and Takayoshi's developing >> >research on how emoticons in chat are used as much to re-embody the > > >writer (return them lost facial gesture) as to clarify meaning. . >> . . >> >For a guy who's too much in his head, this is kinda mindbending . >> . . >> > >> >Cheers -- >> >Doug >> > >> > >> >Dr. Doug Downs >> >Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric >> >Writing Program Coordinator >> >Dept. of English and Literature >> >Utah Valley State College >> >800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 >> >LA 126g >> >801-863-8572 >> >>>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" 11/28/07 4:45 >> AM >>> >> >So persuasion is a kind of wish fulfillment? Instead of the rhetor >> >inventing the audience, the audience invents the rhetor (and in the >> >process become what they imagine?). Hoot! Now that has some >> >interesting possibilities as a thought experiment, esp. when we >> switch>it to the class and consider the teacher as rhetor and the >> students as >> >audience. >> > >> >What's the wish students want fulfilled and how do they "invent" the >> >teacher? I suspect that answers to those questions will shift as >> >students move through the public school system. I also suspect >> that the >> >"embodied" teaching experiences of teachers in the K-3 classrooms are >> >different from those in the 4-6 classrooms (and different yet >> again from >> >the 7-8, 9-12 classrooms). Maybe because the "wishes" are different? >> > >> >And what happens when that wish fulfillment is stymied by the >> teacher's>body? For instance, I just had a grad student in my >> office yesterday >> >chatting about a variety of things. And out of the blue (or what >> seemed>to me the blue), she asked me if my height ever caused me >> problems in >> >the classroom (I'm 5' 2"). She said she thought her students saw >> her as >> >short (she's 5') and thus without authority. >> > >> >Does that mean, then, that students who wish an "authority" teacher >> >might be unable to fulfill that wish with a teacher who does not >> >physically meet their vision of authority? Saying something like, >> "Oh,>that teacher doesn't have an "authority" body?" Or might they >> learn to >> >fulfill that wish according to other criteria? >> > >> >Susan's ethos question and your response, Doug, were also in the >> back of >> >my head as I read through NCTE's Inbox this morning, esp. the >> section on >> >the NCTE blogs...the ones where participants posted responses to >> NCTE in >> >NYC? Traci Gardner's response blog addressed the question of >> teachers>blogging: should teachers be blogging and/or participating >> on social >> >networking sites? I guess some school systems are urging teachers to >> >avoid both. >> > >> >Doesn't it seem as if part of the concern stems from issues of >> >embodiment--life outside of school, life as something other than a >> >talking head? (I remember when I was in grade school--I saw my >> second>grade teacher in the grocery store, and I was shocked. >> What? Teachers >> >buy food?) >> > >> >Fascinating and important, all of this. >> > >> >Kris >> > >> > >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: Doug Downs >> >Date: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:57 am >> >Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve >> >To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >> > >> >> Well put, Kris. It only took the Roman Catholic Church 'til this >> >> century to apologize for believing Aristotle over Galileo on >> >> astronomy. >> >> I don't hear enough rhetoricians admit that he was simply, flatly >> >> wrongabout ethos. Or, perhaps, that he was speaking of how he > > >> *wished* it >> >> were rather than how it *is*. In the flesh and blood world, >> >> everythingwe know about the rhetor -- not simply the rhetor as >> they>> appear in >> >> their text or, more broadly, in the delivery of their text, >> >> matters. >> >> >> >> Of course, it's easier to see that, maybe, in a visual and >> electronic>> world than it was in a world where almost all >> rhetoric took place >> >> in-person and from memory. >> >> >> >> Usually we can think about ethos as a matter of identification >> with>> image -- if I the rhetor resemble (particularly in values >> and ways of >> >> being) you the audience, I likely have high ethos. What's > > interesting>> about "right" bodies and ethos is that rather than >> identification with >> >> how the audience *is*, ethos may derive from identification >> with what >> >> the audience *wants*. . . . But then, of course, ethos is always >> >> derived from being what the audience wishes it were rather than >> >> what it >> > > necessarily is. >> >> >> >> Cheers -- >> >> Doug >> >> >> >> >> >> Dr. Doug Downs >> >> Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric >> >> Writing Program Chair >> >> Dept. of English and Literature >> >> Utah Valley State College >> >> 800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 >> >> LA 126g >> >> 801-863-8572 >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" 11/27/2007 >> 2:42 AM >> >> >>> >> >> You know, tho', Susan, even Aristotelian ethos had a material >> aspect,>> one related to the body through eunoia, or friendliness. >> >> Regardless of >> >> A's saying that good character is created only through the >> words of a >> > > speech, he also points to the importance of creating a physical >> >> appearance that establishes friendliness. Even delivery has a >> role to >> >> play in ethos. >> >> >> >> So I don't think you're off the mark to consider bodies as part >> of our >> >> rhetorical toolbox. >> >> >> >> Maybe the problem is that bodies matter, but that bodies matter in >> >> potentially negative and pejorative ways; i.e., because you do not >> >> possess the "right" body, you can't make that argument (or you >> can't>> make that argument persuasively). >> >> >> >> Perhaps this cultural reality constitutes another important >> area of >> >> critical engagement for our students and for us as teachers? >> >> >> >> Kris >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Susan Miller-Cochran >> >> Date: Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:41 pm >> >> Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve >> >> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >> >> >> >> > Kristie, >> >> > >> >> > Thank you for such a marvelous, thought-provoking module. In the >> >> > spirit of >> >> > sharing anecdotal evidence of (dis)embodied writing, I started >> >> > thinkingabout some of my own teaching practices...perhaps >> with a >> >> > bit of chagrin. I >> >> > thought about how our bodies, or how our bodies are perceived by >> >> > others, can >> >> > silence us and limit the ways in which we "can" use language. >> And>> I >> >> > thoughtof the discussions I have had with my students about >> >> > developing ethos in an >> >> > argument--how we can/'t make certain arguments because of who we >> >> > are or how >> >> > our bodies are represented....discussions that often end with >> >> > statementslike, "You might have trouble making that argument." >> >> What >> >> > I'm often saying >> >> > to students, without directly saying it, is "You might have >> >> trouble >> >> > makingthat argument because of how you are seen by others." I >> >> don't >> >> > want to say >> >> > that out loud, but that's often what I mean. And I'm embarrassed >> >> to >> >> > admitit. >> >> > >> >> > I'm not sure where my thoughts are going with this, but you've >> >> > given me >> >> > cause to rethink the ways that I approach these kinds of >> >> > discussions with my >> >> > students. >> >> > >> >> > Enough of my rambling for now. :) >> >> > >> >> > Susan >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com >> >> > [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On > > Behalf Of >> >> > KristieFleckenstein >> >> > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:35 PM >> >> > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >> >> > Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve >> >> > >> >> > Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received your post. I >> found>> > it at the >> >> > end of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting. >> >> > >> >> > Here's what you wrote. >> >> > >> >> > Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General >> >> > Educationcommittee at my school proposed that courses satisfying >> >> > the college's >> >> > diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more > > >> about >> >> > howstudents negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital >> >> > environments. It >> >> > seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. >> >> > >> >> > Here's my response. >> >> > >> >> > I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment question, >> >> and >> >> > one we >> >> > need to keep reminding ourselves to ask. >> >> > >> >> > It reminds me of Coco Fusco's work in _The Bodies that Were Not >> >> Ours_. >> >> > (Fusco's a performance artist at Columbia U, and I've just >> >> > discovered her >> >> > work.) She's concerned that digital technologies too easily >> lead to >> >> > disembodiment in a couple ways. First, we users tend to forget >> >> > that all >> >> > that hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low >> wage> > > assemble-line factory (she did 3 years of research in the >> >> factories >> >> > alongthe Mexican border). AND we tend to assume that bodies >> >> don't >> >> > matter on line >> >> > (back to the New Yorker cartoon-the one with the two dogs, >> one at >> >> a >> >> > computerterminal who tells the other one that no one knows >> you're>> a >> >> > dog online). >> >> > Fusco wants to keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do matter, >> >> > especiallyonline. >> >> > >> >> > It seems as if your school has gotten this message. So how >> do we >> > > > answerthat question? >> >> > >> >> > I know there are folks who are looking at the way in which we >> >> carry >> >> > realworld biases with us into virtual world spaces. But does >> >> > anyone on the list >> >> > know of research that looks at the way our minority students >> >> configure >> >> > themselves in online environments? And, if not, how do we go >> >> about >> >> > gettinganswers to these questions? >> >> > >> >> > Ideas? >> >> > >> >> > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor >> >> > Department of English >> >> > Florida State University >> >> > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way >> >> > P. O. Box 3061580 >> >> > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 >> >> > 850.644.3530 (O) >> >> > 850.644.0811 (F) >> >> > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >> > >> >> >> >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> >> >> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, please visit >> >> > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> and>> > updateyour information. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >> > >> >> >> >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> >> >> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, please visit >> >> > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> and>> > update your information. >> >> > >> >> >> >> Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor >> >> Department of English >> >> Florida State University >> >> 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way >> >> P. O. Box 3061580 >> >> Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 >> >> 850.644.3530 (O) >> >> 850.644.0811 (F) >> >> kfleckenstein@fsu.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >> Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >> >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe, please visit >> >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > > >> update your information. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >> >> >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe, please visit >> >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> >> update your information. >> >> >> > >> >Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor >> >Department of English >> >Florida State University >> >405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way >> >P. O. Box 3061580 >> >Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 >> >850.644.3530 (O) >> >850.644.0811 (F) > > >kfleckenstein@fsu.edu >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >>Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com>http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> > >> >To unsubscribe, please visit >> >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> update>your information. >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >>Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com>http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> > >> >To unsubscribe, please visit >> >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> >update your information. >> >> >> -- >> >> >> Patricia Freitag Ericsson, PhD >> Director, Digital Technology and Culture Program >> Assistant Professor, Department of English >> Washington State University >> Pullman, WA 99164 >> ericsson@wsu.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >>Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> To unsubscribe, please visit >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> update your information. >> > >Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor >Department of English >Florida State University >405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way >P. O. Box 3061580 >Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 >850.644.3530 (O) >850.644.0811 (F) >kfleckenstein@fsu.edu >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > >To unsubscribe, please visit >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >update your information. -- Patricia Freitag Ericsson, PhD Director, Digital Technology and Culture Program Assistant Professor, Department of English Washington State University Pullman, WA 99164 ericsson@wsu.edu From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Thu Nov 29 16:25:38 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Patricia Freitag Ericsson) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 08:25:38 -0800 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve In-Reply-To: References: <474D126C0200001A0002DB16@mail-out.email.uvsc.edu> Message-ID: I'm not sure about ghostwriting or logographers, but it reminds me of Cyrano de Bergerac. Despite that connection to a drama that is at least in part about texts and whose body is embodied, I can't seem to tease out more than a few speculative thoughts. Cyrano writes everything for Christian--letters and snippets of conversation, but without Cyrano, Christian is mute. Hmm. Seems like almost every time this scenario is played out in plays that are spin-offs, in other dramas, and in the case of ghostwriters who write the celebrity books, there is a mismatch--or an imagined mismatch--between the "voice" of the supposed speaker/writer and the "voice" that the ghostwriter gives them. Maybe someone else can tease more out of this--if there is more. On the extension of the body and reading--although my first reaction was cannibalism, after a cup of morning tea, I have a few more thoughts. Toward the end of the short essay I quoted from yesterday, Lupton and Miller, continuing the body metaphor, write about the function of things like notes, figures, appendices, and even footnotes as part of the body of the text. They analogize these part to "organs" that "nourish, impregnate, and sometimes deface, infect, the internal body." Their elaboration on the function of footnoes is really interesting, but ends with this "...footnotes diagram the paternity of ideas." So how does that relate to the comsuption of this body? Well, I think that most analogies suffer when they're extended to far, but that aside, can we push this one a bit further? I think maybe. I feel quite strongly about getting respect for the meals I make. I work hard to make good meals for my family and a lot of my "body" goes into the preparation of those meals. The rule has always been that when my family sits down to dinner, we eat respectfully. We start with small helpings of things we are not sure about and try to eat them quietly, without negative comment. Positive comments are always welcome! Negative comments are allowed, but only after dinner, after cleanup, in a more appropriate moment. Yes, decorum and kairos. How does this relate to consuming someone else's text? If I put similar effort into writing a text, I expect the same kind of respect from those who consume it. I think this is where we get into trouble with our feedback to students. We do not need to consume their work uncritically, but we do owe them respect on some level. Even if we think they didn't put enough time or effort into it, they did write it (well, if it's not plagiarized) and it is (if we buy into Lupton and Miller) a trace of them. Once we get through the argument about the Lupton/Miller essay in class (and there is a lot of push and pull about it which is really interesting and fun), there's usually some sort of agreement that writing is part of them. The floodgates then often open and they can articulat more clearly how they feel about their writing, about the feedback they have gotten, and why their writing really does matter to them. The first time this happened, I was pretty amazed. They have a lot of scars, old wounds from feedback that has injured them. Their "writing bodies" are wounded. We often have a lot of repair work to do on these bodies, but our pedagogy mostly ignores this facet of our work. I've gone on too long and probably haven't made much sense. My apologies. I think reading is a kind of consumption of another. Maybe cannibalism isn't way off. Patty > >I love this idea, too. But I have a test case. What do we do about >ghostwriters? (When I first thought of this, I was thinking of >Deborah Brandt's fairly recent CE article on ghostwriters, but we >could also go back to classical logographers--the first >ghostwriters!--and reexamine that phenomenon within the context of >biopsychology.) Whose body? > >Last point. If writing is an extension of the body, what is reading? > >Kris > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Patricia Freitag Ericsson >Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:04 am >Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve >To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >> Perhaps random, but some thoughts and the final one might be the > > most interesting/important. >> >> The Classical rhetoric we lean on here was tons about embodiment, >> no? >> I mean a lot of it was thought out/articulated in relationship to >> speaking in person--directily embodied. >> >> There are bodies behind texts, yet, but how about bodies as texts? >> That seems to be part of what we're talking about. We read the >> body >> behind the texts as texts. I showed a short cartoon as a part of >> class a few years ago, and after it a student said "I can't believe >> a >> person who looks like you would show a cartoon like that." The >> student thought s/he knew me by the way I had appeared in class >> that >> semester. >> >> All of my teachers in grade school were nuns--ones who wore the old >> traditional habits. Talk about issues with embodiment!! When a >> tiny >> whisp of hair appeared from under the headress thing, we were all >> abuzz. After school, they disappeared into the convent--a >> mysterious >> place. Imagining them as having real bodies was almost impossible. >> >> Finally, texts have bodies, no? I'm thinking about Lupton and >> Miller's essay "Body of the Book." "All objects manufactured for >> use >> are extensions of the body: food, furniture, shelter, and tools do >> not lie in a region safely 'outside' the body, but instead are >> continuations of the body, turning it inside out." They ask, "But >> what if one were to see writing as an extension of the body, no >> different in essence from an artificial limb or a contact lense? >> Like >> a chair supporting the human skeleton, writing supplments the >> body's >> capacity to speak: it is permanent rather than ephemeral, it >> withstands movements in place and time, and it remains readable in >> the absence of it's author." >> >> Later Lupton/Miller add the part that has pretty much shocked my >> students and made them pay attention: "As the end-product of the >> so-called 'thought process,' writging thus resembles excrement. It >> is also akin to hair, finger nails, and the surface of the skin-- >> each >> is a part of the body that is continually regenerated yet >> biologically dead, detachable, disposable. Writing is like blook, >> sweat, semen, saliva, and otehr substances that the body >> periodically >> produces and eliminates." >> >> Patty >> >> >> >> >This reminds me of something else we often have to work really >> hard on >> >with students -- though maybe it just spins it back ground to your >> >original points, Kris -- helping students see the bodies behind >> texts.>Texts are people talking, ultimately, and it changes the way >> students>imagine the text to imagine ("flesh out"?) the people >> behind them. In >> >my Comp II classes, I have students read Carol Berkenkotter's long- >> ago>C's article following Donald Murray through his invention >> process. The >> >piece ends with a reflection by Murray himself (an early example >> of a >> >research design allowing the "subject" to speak back to the >> researcher's>story) -- and it really bends students' perspectives. >> They also read >> >Murray's piece "All Writing is Autobiography," and have the double >> >experience both of Murray talking about himself and (now) reading a >> >eulogy written by one of his longtime proteges at the Boston Globe. >> >>From experiences like that -- getting students to pay attention >> to *how* >> >they "embody" -- or don't -- the writers of their texts, we work >> out to >> >other texts where it's harder to imagine the writer in the flesh. >> (It>helps to have had lunch with the writers, so you can tell >> students what >> >they eat.) >> > >> >So I love the thinking you're doing here about audience inventing >> rhetor>(rhetor-audience-invoked?) . . . and who has to have what >> bodies to do >> >which things . . . and how at one level, the entire point of >> writing has >> >always been to *disembody* the writer, so their words can be where > > they>are not -- and yet good blogging software allows photo uploads >> (not to >> >mention Facebook/etc.) and there is Haas and Takayoshi's developing >> >research on how emoticons in chat are used as much to re-embody the > > >writer (return them lost facial gesture) as to clarify meaning. . >> . . >> >For a guy who's too much in his head, this is kinda mindbending . >> . . >> > >> >Cheers -- >> >Doug >> > >> > >> >Dr. Doug Downs >> >Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric >> >Writing Program Coordinator >> >Dept. of English and Literature >> >Utah Valley State College >> >800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 >> >LA 126g >> >801-863-8572 >> >>>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" 11/28/07 4:45 >> AM >>> >> >So persuasion is a kind of wish fulfillment? Instead of the rhetor >> >inventing the audience, the audience invents the rhetor (and in the >> >process become what they imagine?). Hoot! Now that has some >> >interesting possibilities as a thought experiment, esp. when we >> switch>it to the class and consider the teacher as rhetor and the >> students as >> >audience. >> > >> >What's the wish students want fulfilled and how do they "invent" the >> >teacher? I suspect that answers to those questions will shift as >> >students move through the public school system. I also suspect >> that the >> >"embodied" teaching experiences of teachers in the K-3 classrooms are >> >different from those in the 4-6 classrooms (and different yet >> again from >> >the 7-8, 9-12 classrooms). Maybe because the "wishes" are different? >> > >> >And what happens when that wish fulfillment is stymied by the >> teacher's>body? For instance, I just had a grad student in my >> office yesterday >> >chatting about a variety of things. And out of the blue (or what >> seemed>to me the blue), she asked me if my height ever caused me >> problems in >> >the classroom (I'm 5' 2"). She said she thought her students saw >> her as >> >short (she's 5') and thus without authority. >> > >> >Does that mean, then, that students who wish an "authority" teacher >> >might be unable to fulfill that wish with a teacher who does not >> >physically meet their vision of authority? Saying something like, >> "Oh,>that teacher doesn't have an "authority" body?" Or might they >> learn to >> >fulfill that wish according to other criteria? >> > >> >Susan's ethos question and your response, Doug, were also in the >> back of >> >my head as I read through NCTE's Inbox this morning, esp. the >> section on >> >the NCTE blogs...the ones where participants posted responses to >> NCTE in >> >NYC? Traci Gardner's response blog addressed the question of >> teachers>blogging: should teachers be blogging and/or participating >> on social >> >networking sites? I guess some school systems are urging teachers to >> >avoid both. >> > >> >Doesn't it seem as if part of the concern stems from issues of >> >embodiment--life outside of school, life as something other than a >> >talking head? (I remember when I was in grade school--I saw my >> second>grade teacher in the grocery store, and I was shocked. >> What? Teachers >> >buy food?) >> > >> >Fascinating and important, all of this. >> > >> >Kris >> > >> > >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: Doug Downs >> >Date: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:57 am >> >Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve >> >To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >> > >> >> Well put, Kris. It only took the Roman Catholic Church 'til this >> >> century to apologize for believing Aristotle over Galileo on >> >> astronomy. >> >> I don't hear enough rhetoricians admit that he was simply, flatly >> >> wrongabout ethos. Or, perhaps, that he was speaking of how he >> >> *wished* it >> >> were rather than how it *is*. In the flesh and blood world, >> >> everythingwe know about the rhetor -- not simply the rhetor as >> they>> appear in >> >> their text or, more broadly, in the delivery of their text, >> >> matters. >> >> >> >> Of course, it's easier to see that, maybe, in a visual and >> electronic>> world than it was in a world where almost all >> rhetoric took place >> >> in-person and from memory. > > >> >> >> Usually we can think about ethos as a matter of identification >> with>> image -- if I the rhetor resemble (particularly in values >> and ways of >> >> being) you the audience, I likely have high ethos. What's > > interesting>> about "right" bodies and ethos is that rather than >> identification with >> >> how the audience *is*, ethos may derive from identification >> with what >> >> the audience *wants*. . . . But then, of course, ethos is always >> >> derived from being what the audience wishes it were rather than >> >> what it >> > > necessarily is. >> >> >> >> Cheers -- >> >> Doug >> >> >> >> >> >> Dr. Doug Downs >> >> Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric >> >> Writing Program Chair >> >> Dept. of English and Literature >> >> Utah Valley State College >> >> 800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 >> >> LA 126g >> >> 801-863-8572 >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" 11/27/2007 >> 2:42 AM >> >> >>> >> >> You know, tho', Susan, even Aristotelian ethos had a material >> aspect,>> one related to the body through eunoia, or friendliness. >> >> Regardless of >> >> A's saying that good character is created only through the >> words of a >> > > speech, he also points to the importance of creating a physical >> >> appearance that establishes friendliness. Even delivery has a >> role to >> >> play in ethos. >> >> >> >> So I don't think you're off the mark to consider bodies as part >> of our >> >> rhetorical toolbox. >> >> >> >> Maybe the problem is that bodies matter, but that bodies matter in >> >> potentially negative and pejorative ways; i.e., because you do not >> >> possess the "right" body, you can't make that argument (or you >> can't>> make that argument persuasively). >> >> >> >> Perhaps this cultural reality constitutes another important >> area of >> >> critical engagement for our students and for us as teachers? >> >> >> >> Kris >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Susan Miller-Cochran >> >> Date: Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:41 pm >> >> Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve >> >> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >> >> >> >> > Kristie, >> >> > >> >> > Thank you for such a marvelous, thought-provoking module. In the >> >> > spirit of >> >> > sharing anecdotal evidence of (dis)embodied writing, I started >> >> > thinkingabout some of my own teaching practices...perhaps >> with a >> >> > bit of chagrin. I >> >> > thought about how our bodies, or how our bodies are perceived by >> >> > others, can >> >> > silence us and limit the ways in which we "can" use language. >> And>> I >> >> > thoughtof the discussions I have had with my students about >> >> > developing ethos in an >> >> > argument--how we can/'t make certain arguments because of who we >> >> > are or how >> >> > our bodies are represented....discussions that often end with >> >> > statementslike, "You might have trouble making that argument." >> >> What >> >> > I'm often saying >> >> > to students, without directly saying it, is "You might have >> >> trouble >> >> > makingthat argument because of how you are seen by others." I >> >> don't >> >> > want to say >> >> > that out loud, but that's often what I mean. And I'm embarrassed >> >> to >> >> > admitit. >> >> > >> >> > I'm not sure where my thoughts are going with this, but you've >> >> > given me >> >> > cause to rethink the ways that I approach these kinds of >> >> > discussions with my >> >> > students. >> >> > >> >> > Enough of my rambling for now. :) >> >> > >> >> > Susan >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com >> >> > [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On >> Behalf Of >> >> > KristieFleckenstein >> >> > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:35 PM >> >> > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >> >> > Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve >> >> > >> >> > Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received your post. I >> found>> > it at the >> >> > end of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting. >> >> > >> >> > Here's what you wrote. > > >> > >> >> > Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General >> >> > Educationcommittee at my school proposed that courses satisfying >> >> > the college's >> >> > diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more > > >> about >> >> > howstudents negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital >> >> > environments. It >> >> > seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. >> >> > >> >> > Here's my response. >> >> > >> >> > I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment question, >> >> and >> >> > one we >> >> > need to keep reminding ourselves to ask. >> >> > >> >> > It reminds me of Coco Fusco's work in _The Bodies that Were Not >> >> Ours_. >> >> > (Fusco's a performance artist at Columbia U, and I've just >> >> > discovered her >> >> > work.) She's concerned that digital technologies too easily >> lead to >> >> > disembodiment in a couple ways. First, we users tend to forget >> >> > that all >> >> > that hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low >> wage> > > assemble-line factory (she did 3 years of research in the >> >> factories >> >> > alongthe Mexican border). AND we tend to assume that bodies >> >> don't >> >> > matter on line >> >> > (back to the New Yorker cartoon-the one with the two dogs, >> one at >> >> a >> >> > computerterminal who tells the other one that no one knows >> you're>> a >> >> > dog online). >> >> > Fusco wants to keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do matter, >> >> > especiallyonline. >> >> > >> >> > It seems as if your school has gotten this message. So how >> do we >> > > > answerthat question? >> >> > >> >> > I know there are folks who are looking at the way in which we >> >> carry >> >> > realworld biases with us into virtual world spaces. But does >> >> > anyone on the list >> >> > know of research that looks at the way our minority students >> >> configure >> >> > themselves in online environments? And, if not, how do we go >> >> about >> >> > gettinganswers to these questions? >> >> > >> >> > Ideas? >> >> > >> >> > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor >> >> > Department of English >> >> > Florida State University >> >> > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way >> >> > P. O. Box 3061580 >> >> > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 >> >> > 850.644.3530 (O) >> >> > 850.644.0811 (F) >> >> > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >> > >> >> >> >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> >> >> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, please visit >> >> > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> and>> > updateyour information. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >> > >> >> >> >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> >> >> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, please visit >> >> > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> and>> > update your information. >> >> > >> >> >> >> Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor >> >> Department of English >> >> Florida State University >> >> 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way >> >> P. O. Box 3061580 >> >> Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 >> >> 850.644.3530 (O) >> >> 850.644.0811 (F) >> >> kfleckenstein@fsu.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >> Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >> >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe, please visit >> >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> >> update your information. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >> >> >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe, please visit >> >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> >> update your information. > > >> >> > >> >Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor >> >Department of English >> >Florida State University >> >405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way >> >P. O. Box 3061580 >> >Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 >> >850.644.3530 (O) >> >850.644.0811 (F) > > >kfleckenstein@fsu.edu >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >>Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com>http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> > >> >To unsubscribe, please visit >> >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> update>your information. >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >>Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com>http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> > >> >To unsubscribe, please visit >> >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> >update your information. >> >> >> -- >> >> >> Patricia Freitag Ericsson, PhD >> Director, Digital Technology and Culture Program >> Assistant Professor, Department of English >> Washington State University >> Pullman, WA 99164 >> ericsson@wsu.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >>Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> To unsubscribe, please visit >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> update your information. >> > >Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor >Department of English >Florida State University >405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way >P. O. Box 3061580 >Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 >850.644.3530 (O) >850.644.0811 (F) >kfleckenstein@fsu.edu >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > >To unsubscribe, please visit >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >update your information. -- Patricia Freitag Ericsson, PhD Director, Digital Technology and Culture Program Assistant Professor, Department of English Washington State University Pullman, WA 99164 ericsson@wsu.edu From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Fri Nov 30 00:56:09 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Kathy Fitch) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 18:56:09 -0600 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <20071130002049.E55D11C802B@smtpauth01.csee.onr.siteprotect.com> This reminded me of a Robert Bly poem: A Third Body A man and a woman sit near each other, and they do not long at this moment to be older, or younger, nor born in any other nation, or time, or place. They are content to be where they are, talking or not-talking. Their breaths together feed someone whom we do not know. The man sees the way his fingers move; he sees her hands close around a book she hands to him. They obey a third body that they share in common. They have made a promise to love that body. Age may come, parting may come, death will come. A man and a woman sit near each other; as they breathe they feed someone we do not know, someone we know of, whom we have never seen. Writing and reading both seem to me to be part of the work of creating that kind of third body. Just happened into a radio conversation about the theology of the body today, too, and much of that is also instructive, here. This particular conversation concerned pornography, but the metaphor at the heart of it (the idea that pornography attempts to fulfill with the equivalent of non-nutritive junk food or drug the desires that can only really be satisfied with a nourishing feast of love and connection) seems pertinent to this discussion, as well. Writing and reading have always seemed to me to be ways of flying away from the body. (No, materially we don't escape, but the material is but one aspect of life.) Of transcending it. Places where one's reach can extend far past one's fingertips, and where being visionary had nothing to do with eyes. And then, it always seems to me, that these flights make settling into the skin easier, and actual vision and touch sharper, more compassionate, generally something better than they could otherwise be. Perhaps these are quaint notions, now, but writing online hasn't altered that experience, for me. Meanwhile, the D&G BwO bit always leaves me feeling bleak and dissatisfied. Their rhizome metaphor has been far and away their most productive idea, and it seems to me that this is because it isn't so killingly bleak. People can embrace it without harming themselves. Kathy -----Original Message----- From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of Patricia Freitag Ericsson Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 10:26 AM To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve I'm not sure about ghostwriting or logographers, but it reminds me of Cyrano de Bergerac. Despite that connection to a drama that is at least in part about texts and whose body is embodied, I can't seem to tease out more than a few speculative thoughts. Cyrano writes everything for Christian--letters and snippets of conversation, but without Cyrano, Christian is mute. Hmm. Seems like almost every time this scenario is played out in plays that are spin-offs, in other dramas, and in the case of ghostwriters who write the celebrity books, there is a mismatch--or an imagined mismatch--between the "voice" of the supposed speaker/writer and the "voice" that the ghostwriter gives them. Maybe someone else can tease more out of this--if there is more. On the extension of the body and reading--although my first reaction was cannibalism, after a cup of morning tea, I have a few more thoughts. Toward the end of the short essay I quoted from yesterday, Lupton and Miller, continuing the body metaphor, write about the function of things like notes, figures, appendices, and even footnotes as part of the body of the text. They analogize these part to "organs" that "nourish, impregnate, and sometimes deface, infect, the internal body." Their elaboration on the function of footnoes is really interesting, but ends with this "...footnotes diagram the paternity of ideas." So how does that relate to the comsuption of this body? Well, I think that most analogies suffer when they're extended to far, but that aside, can we push this one a bit further? I think maybe. I feel quite strongly about getting respect for the meals I make. I work hard to make good meals for my family and a lot of my "body" goes into the preparation of those meals. The rule has always been that when my family sits down to dinner, we eat respectfully. We start with small helpings of things we are not sure about and try to eat them quietly, without negative comment. Positive comments are always welcome! Negative comments are allowed, but only after dinner, after cleanup, in a more appropriate moment. Yes, decorum and kairos. How does this relate to consuming someone else's text? If I put similar effort into writing a text, I expect the same kind of respect from those who consume it. I think this is where we get into trouble with our feedback to students. We do not need to consume their work uncritically, but we do owe them respect on some level. Even if we think they didn't put enough time or effort into it, they did write it (well, if it's not plagiarized) and it is (if we buy into Lupton and Miller) a trace of them. Once we get through the argument about the Lupton/Miller essay in class (and there is a lot of push and pull about it which is really interesting and fun), there's usually some sort of agreement that writing is part of them. The floodgates then often open and they can articulat more clearly how they feel about their writing, about the feedback they have gotten, and why their writing really does matter to them. The first time this happened, I was pretty amazed. They have a lot of scars, old wounds from feedback that has injured them. Their "writing bodies" are wounded. We often have a lot of repair work to do on these bodies, but our pedagogy mostly ignores this facet of our work. I've gone on too long and probably haven't made much sense. My apologies. I think reading is a kind of consumption of another. Maybe cannibalism isn't way off. Patty > >I love this idea, too. But I have a test case. What do we do about >ghostwriters? (When I first thought of this, I was thinking of >Deborah Brandt's fairly recent CE article on ghostwriters, but we >could also go back to classical logographers--the first >ghostwriters!--and reexamine that phenomenon within the context of >biopsychology.) Whose body? > >Last point. If writing is an extension of the body, what is reading? > >Kris > >----- Original Message ----- >From: Patricia Freitag Ericsson >Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:04 am >Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve >To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >> Perhaps random, but some thoughts and the final one might be the > > most interesting/important. >> >> The Classical rhetoric we lean on here was tons about embodiment, >> no? >> I mean a lot of it was thought out/articulated in relationship to >> speaking in person--directily embodied. >> >> There are bodies behind texts, yet, but how about bodies as texts? >> That seems to be part of what we're talking about. We read the >> body >> behind the texts as texts. I showed a short cartoon as a part of >> class a few years ago, and after it a student said "I can't believe >> a >> person who looks like you would show a cartoon like that." The >> student thought s/he knew me by the way I had appeared in class >> that >> semester. >> >> All of my teachers in grade school were nuns--ones who wore the old >> traditional habits. Talk about issues with embodiment!! When a >> tiny >> whisp of hair appeared from under the headress thing, we were all >> abuzz. After school, they disappeared into the convent--a >> mysterious >> place. Imagining them as having real bodies was almost impossible. >> >> Finally, texts have bodies, no? I'm thinking about Lupton and >> Miller's essay "Body of the Book." "All objects manufactured for >> use >> are extensions of the body: food, furniture, shelter, and tools do >> not lie in a region safely 'outside' the body, but instead are >> continuations of the body, turning it inside out." They ask, "But >> what if one were to see writing as an extension of the body, no >> different in essence from an artificial limb or a contact lense? >> Like >> a chair supporting the human skeleton, writing supplments the >> body's >> capacity to speak: it is permanent rather than ephemeral, it >> withstands movements in place and time, and it remains readable in >> the absence of it's author." >> >> Later Lupton/Miller add the part that has pretty much shocked my >> students and made them pay attention: "As the end-product of the >> so-called 'thought process,' writging thus resembles excrement. It >> is also akin to hair, finger nails, and the surface of the skin-- >> each >> is a part of the body that is continually regenerated yet >> biologically dead, detachable, disposable. Writing is like blook, >> sweat, semen, saliva, and otehr substances that the body >> periodically >> produces and eliminates." >> >> Patty >> >> >> >> >This reminds me of something else we often have to work really >> hard on >> >with students -- though maybe it just spins it back ground to your >> >original points, Kris -- helping students see the bodies behind >> texts.>Texts are people talking, ultimately, and it changes the way >> students>imagine the text to imagine ("flesh out"?) the people >> behind them. In >> >my Comp II classes, I have students read Carol Berkenkotter's long- >> ago>C's article following Donald Murray through his invention >> process. The >> >piece ends with a reflection by Murray himself (an early example >> of a >> >research design allowing the "subject" to speak back to the >> researcher's>story) -- and it really bends students' perspectives. >> They also read >> >Murray's piece "All Writing is Autobiography," and have the double >> >experience both of Murray talking about himself and (now) reading a >> >eulogy written by one of his longtime proteges at the Boston Globe. >> >>From experiences like that -- getting students to pay attention >> to *how* >> >they "embody" -- or don't -- the writers of their texts, we work >> out to >> >other texts where it's harder to imagine the writer in the flesh. >> (It>helps to have had lunch with the writers, so you can tell >> students what >> >they eat.) >> > >> >So I love the thinking you're doing here about audience inventing >> rhetor>(rhetor-audience-invoked?) . . . and who has to have what >> bodies to do >> >which things . . . and how at one level, the entire point of >> writing has >> >always been to *disembody* the writer, so their words can be where > > they>are not -- and yet good blogging software allows photo uploads >> (not to >> >mention Facebook/etc.) and there is Haas and Takayoshi's developing >> >research on how emoticons in chat are used as much to re-embody the > > >writer (return them lost facial gesture) as to clarify meaning. . >> . . >> >For a guy who's too much in his head, this is kinda mindbending . >> . . >> > >> >Cheers -- >> >Doug >> > >> > >> >Dr. Doug Downs >> >Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric >> >Writing Program Coordinator >> >Dept. of English and Literature >> >Utah Valley State College >> >800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 >> >LA 126g >> >801-863-8572 >> >>>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" 11/28/07 4:45 >> AM >>> >> >So persuasion is a kind of wish fulfillment? Instead of the rhetor >> >inventing the audience, the audience invents the rhetor (and in the >> >process become what they imagine?). Hoot! Now that has some >> >interesting possibilities as a thought experiment, esp. when we >> switch>it to the class and consider the teacher as rhetor and the >> students as >> >audience. >> > >> >What's the wish students want fulfilled and how do they "invent" the >> >teacher? I suspect that answers to those questions will shift as >> >students move through the public school system. I also suspect >> that the >> >"embodied" teaching experiences of teachers in the K-3 classrooms are >> >different from those in the 4-6 classrooms (and different yet >> again from >> >the 7-8, 9-12 classrooms). Maybe because the "wishes" are different? >> > >> >And what happens when that wish fulfillment is stymied by the >> teacher's>body? For instance, I just had a grad student in my >> office yesterday >> >chatting about a variety of things. And out of the blue (or what >> seemed>to me the blue), she asked me if my height ever caused me >> problems in >> >the classroom (I'm 5' 2"). She said she thought her students saw >> her as >> >short (she's 5') and thus without authority. >> > >> >Does that mean, then, that students who wish an "authority" teacher >> >might be unable to fulfill that wish with a teacher who does not >> >physically meet their vision of authority? Saying something like, >> "Oh,>that teacher doesn't have an "authority" body?" Or might they >> learn to >> >fulfill that wish according to other criteria? >> > >> >Susan's ethos question and your response, Doug, were also in the >> back of >> >my head as I read through NCTE's Inbox this morning, esp. the >> section on >> >the NCTE blogs...the ones where participants posted responses to >> NCTE in >> >NYC? Traci Gardner's response blog addressed the question of >> teachers>blogging: should teachers be blogging and/or participating >> on social >> >networking sites? I guess some school systems are urging teachers to >> >avoid both. >> > >> >Doesn't it seem as if part of the concern stems from issues of >> >embodiment--life outside of school, life as something other than a >> >talking head? (I remember when I was in grade school--I saw my >> second>grade teacher in the grocery store, and I was shocked. >> What? Teachers >> >buy food?) >> > >> >Fascinating and important, all of this. >> > >> >Kris >> > >> > >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: Doug Downs >> >Date: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:57 am >> >Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve >> >To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >> > >> >> Well put, Kris. It only took the Roman Catholic Church 'til this >> >> century to apologize for believing Aristotle over Galileo on >> >> astronomy. >> >> I don't hear enough rhetoricians admit that he was simply, flatly >> >> wrongabout ethos. Or, perhaps, that he was speaking of how he >> >> *wished* it >> >> were rather than how it *is*. In the flesh and blood world, >> >> everythingwe know about the rhetor -- not simply the rhetor as >> they>> appear in >> >> their text or, more broadly, in the delivery of their text, >> >> matters. >> >> >> >> Of course, it's easier to see that, maybe, in a visual and >> electronic>> world than it was in a world where almost all >> rhetoric took place >> >> in-person and from memory. > > >> >> >> Usually we can think about ethos as a matter of identification >> with>> image -- if I the rhetor resemble (particularly in values >> and ways of >> >> being) you the audience, I likely have high ethos. What's > > interesting>> about "right" bodies and ethos is that rather than >> identification with >> >> how the audience *is*, ethos may derive from identification >> with what >> >> the audience *wants*. . . . But then, of course, ethos is always >> >> derived from being what the audience wishes it were rather than >> >> what it >> > > necessarily is. >> >> >> >> Cheers -- >> >> Doug >> >> >> >> >> >> Dr. Doug Downs >> >> Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric >> >> Writing Program Chair >> >> Dept. of English and Literature >> >> Utah Valley State College >> >> 800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 >> >> LA 126g >> >> 801-863-8572 >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" 11/27/2007 >> 2:42 AM >> >> >>> >> >> You know, tho', Susan, even Aristotelian ethos had a material >> aspect,>> one related to the body through eunoia, or friendliness. >> >> Regardless of >> >> A's saying that good character is created only through the >> words of a >> > > speech, he also points to the importance of creating a physical >> >> appearance that establishes friendliness. Even delivery has a >> role to >> >> play in ethos. >> >> >> >> So I don't think you're off the mark to consider bodies as part >> of our >> >> rhetorical toolbox. >> >> >> >> Maybe the problem is that bodies matter, but that bodies matter in >> >> potentially negative and pejorative ways; i.e., because you do not >> >> possess the "right" body, you can't make that argument (or you >> can't>> make that argument persuasively). >> >> >> >> Perhaps this cultural reality constitutes another important >> area of >> >> critical engagement for our students and for us as teachers? >> >> >> >> Kris >> >> >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> >> From: Susan Miller-Cochran >> >> Date: Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:41 pm >> >> Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve >> >> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >> >> >> >> > Kristie, >> >> > >> >> > Thank you for such a marvelous, thought-provoking module. In the >> >> > spirit of >> >> > sharing anecdotal evidence of (dis)embodied writing, I started >> >> > thinkingabout some of my own teaching practices...perhaps >> with a >> >> > bit of chagrin. I >> >> > thought about how our bodies, or how our bodies are perceived by >> >> > others, can >> >> > silence us and limit the ways in which we "can" use language. >> And>> I >> >> > thoughtof the discussions I have had with my students about >> >> > developing ethos in an >> >> > argument--how we can/'t make certain arguments because of who we >> >> > are or how >> >> > our bodies are represented....discussions that often end with >> >> > statementslike, "You might have trouble making that argument." >> >> What >> >> > I'm often saying >> >> > to students, without directly saying it, is "You might have >> >> trouble >> >> > makingthat argument because of how you are seen by others." I >> >> don't >> >> > want to say >> >> > that out loud, but that's often what I mean. And I'm embarrassed >> >> to >> >> > admitit. >> >> > >> >> > I'm not sure where my thoughts are going with this, but you've >> >> > given me >> >> > cause to rethink the ways that I approach these kinds of >> >> > discussions with my >> >> > students. >> >> > >> >> > Enough of my rambling for now. :) >> >> > >> >> > Susan >> >> > >> >> > -----Original Message----- >> >> > From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com >> >> > [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On >> Behalf Of >> >> > KristieFleckenstein >> >> > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:35 PM >> >> > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >> >> > Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve >> >> > >> >> > Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received your post. I >> found>> > it at the >> >> > end of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting. >> >> > >> >> > Here's what you wrote. > > >> > >> >> > Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the General >> >> > Educationcommittee at my school proposed that courses satisfying >> >> > the college's >> >> > diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew more > > >> about >> >> > howstudents negotiate racial and ethnic identities in digital >> >> > environments. It >> >> > seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being asked. >> >> > >> >> > Here's my response. >> >> > >> >> > I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment question, >> >> and >> >> > one we >> >> > need to keep reminding ourselves to ask. >> >> > >> >> > It reminds me of Coco Fusco's work in _The Bodies that Were Not >> >> Ours_. >> >> > (Fusco's a performance artist at Columbia U, and I've just >> >> > discovered her >> >> > work.) She's concerned that digital technologies too easily >> lead to >> >> > disembodiment in a couple ways. First, we users tend to forget >> >> > that all >> >> > that hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low >> wage> > > assemble-line factory (she did 3 years of research in the >> >> factories >> >> > alongthe Mexican border). AND we tend to assume that bodies >> >> don't >> >> > matter on line >> >> > (back to the New Yorker cartoon-the one with the two dogs, >> one at >> >> a >> >> > computerterminal who tells the other one that no one knows >> you're>> a >> >> > dog online). >> >> > Fusco wants to keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do matter, >> >> > especiallyonline. >> >> > >> >> > It seems as if your school has gotten this message. So how >> do we >> > > > answerthat question? >> >> > >> >> > I know there are folks who are looking at the way in which we >> >> carry >> >> > realworld biases with us into virtual world spaces. But does >> >> > anyone on the list >> >> > know of research that looks at the way our minority students >> >> configure >> >> > themselves in online environments? And, if not, how do we go >> >> about >> >> > gettinganswers to these questions? >> >> > >> >> > Ideas? >> >> > >> >> > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor >> >> > Department of English >> >> > Florida State University >> >> > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way >> >> > P. O. Box 3061580 >> >> > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 >> >> > 850.644.3530 (O) >> >> > 850.644.0811 (F) >> >> > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >> > >> >> >> >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listin fo/teaching_composition >> >> >> >> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, please visit >> >> > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> and>> > updateyour information. >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > _______________________________________________ >> >> > Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >> > >> >> >> >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listin fo/teaching_composition >> >> >> >> > >> >> > To unsubscribe, please visit >> >> > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> and>> > update your information. >> >> > >> >> >> >> Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor >> >> Department of English >> >> Florida State University >> >> 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way >> >> P. O. Box 3061580 >> >> Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 >> >> 850.644.3530 (O) >> >> 850.644.0811 (F) >> >> kfleckenstein@fsu.edu >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >> Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >> >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe, please visit >> >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> >> update your information. >> >> _______________________________________________ >> >> Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >> >> >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listin fo/teaching_composition >> >> >> >> To unsubscribe, please visit >> >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> >> update your information. > > >> >> > >> >Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor >> >Department of English >> >Florida State University >> >405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way >> >P. O. Box 3061580 >> >Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 >> >850.644.3530 (O) >> >850.644.0811 (F) > > >kfleckenstein@fsu.edu >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >>Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com>http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/list info/teaching_composition >> > >> >To unsubscribe, please visit >> >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> update>your information. >> > >> >_______________________________________________ >> >Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >>Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com>http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/list info/teaching_composition >> > >> >To unsubscribe, please visit >> >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> >update your information. >> >> >> -- >> >> >> Patricia Freitag Ericsson, PhD >> Director, Digital Technology and Culture Program >> Assistant Professor, Department of English >> Washington State University >> Pullman, WA 99164 >> ericsson@wsu.edu >> _______________________________________________ >> Teaching_Composition maillist - >> >>Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listi nfo/teaching_composition >> >> To unsubscribe, please visit >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >> update your information. >> > >Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor >Department of English >Florida State University >405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way >P. O. Box 3061580 >Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 >850.644.3530 (O) >850.644.0811 (F) >kfleckenstein@fsu.edu >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > >To unsubscribe, please visit >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and >update your information. -- Patricia Freitag Ericsson, PhD Director, Digital Technology and Culture Program Assistant Professor, Department of English Washington State University Pullman, WA 99164 ericsson@wsu.edu _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition To unsubscribe, please visit http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and update your information. From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Fri Nov 30 01:34:25 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Kathy Fitch) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 19:34:25 -0600 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] A Third Body Message-ID: <20071130005904.DF2761C803B@smtpauth01.csee.onr.siteprotect.com> This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C832BE.DA463B70 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This discussion reminded me of a Robert Bly poem: A Third Body A man and a woman sit near each other, and they do not long at this moment to be older, or younger, nor born in any other nation, or time, or place. They are content to be where they are, talking or not-talking. Their breaths together feed someone whom we do not know. The man sees the way his fingers move; he sees her hands close around a book she hands to him. They obey a third body that they share in common. They have made a promise to love that body. Age may come, parting may come, death will come. A man and a woman sit near each other; as they breathe they feed someone we do not know, someone we know of, whom we have never seen. Writing and reading both seem to me to be part of the work of creating that kind of third body. Just happened into a radio conversation about the theology of the body today, too, and much of that is also instructive, here. This particular conversation concerned pornography, but the metaphor at the heart of it (the idea that pornography attempts to fulfill with the equivalent of non-nutritive junk food or drug the desires that can only really be satisfied with a nourishing feast of love and connection) seems pertinent to this discussion, as well. Writing and reading have always seemed to me to be ways of flying away from the body. (No, materially we don't escape, but the material is but one aspect of life.) Of transcending it. Places where one's reach can extend far past one's fingertips, and where being visionary had nothing to do with eyes. And then, it always seems to me, that these flights make settling into the skin easier, and actual vision and touch sharper, more compassionate, generally something better than they could otherwise be. Perhaps these are quaint notions, now, but writing online hasn't altered that experience, for me. Meanwhile, the D&G BwO bit always leaves me feeling bleak and dissatisfied. Their rhizome metaphor has been far and away their most productive idea, and it seems to me that this is because it isn't so killingly bleak. People can embrace it without harming themselves. Kathy ------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C832BE.DA463B70 Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

This discussion = reminded me of a Robert Bly poem:

 

A Third = Body

 

A man and a woman = sit near each other, and they do not long at this moment to be older, or younger, = nor born in any other nation, or time, or = place.

They are content to = be where they are, talking or not-talking.

Their breaths = together feed someone whom we do not know.

The man sees the = way his fingers move;

he sees her hands = close around a book she hands to him.

They obey a third = body that they share in common.

They have made a = promise to love that body.

Age may come, = parting may come, death will come.

A man and a woman = sit near each other;

as they breathe = they feed someone we do not know, someone we know of, whom we have never = seen.

           &= nbsp;           &n= bsp;                   &= nbsp;         

Writing and reading = both seem to me to be part of the work of creating that kind of third = body. 

 

Just happened into = a radio conversation about the theology of the body today, too, and much of that = is also instructive, here.  This particular conversation concerned = pornography, but the metaphor at the heart of it (the idea that pornography attempts = to fulfill with the equivalent of non-nutritive junk food or drug the = desires that can only really be satisfied with a nourishing feast of love and = connection) seems pertinent to this discussion, as well.  =

 

Writing and reading = have always seemed to me to be ways of flying away from the body.  (No, = materially we don't escape, but the material is but one aspect of life.)  Of = transcending it.  Places where one's reach can extend far past one's fingertips, = and where being visionary had nothing to do with eyes.  And then, it always = seems to me, that these flights make settling into the skin easier, and actual vision = and touch sharper, more compassionate, generally something better than they = could otherwise be.

 

Perhaps these are = quaint notions, now, but writing online hasn't altered that experience, for = me.  Meanwhile, the D&G BwO bit always leaves me feeling bleak and dissatisfied.  Their rhizome metaphor has been far and away their = most productive idea, and it seems to me that this is because it isn't so = killingly bleak.  People can embrace it without harming = themselves.

 

Kathy

 

 

------=_NextPart_000_0006_01C832BE.DA463B70-- From teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Fri Nov 30 01:57:52 2007 From: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com (Kristie Fleckenstein) Date: Thu, 29 Nov 2007 20:57:52 -0500 Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve In-Reply-To: <20071130002049.E55D11C802B@smtpauth01.csee.onr.siteprotect.com> References: <20071130002049.E55D11C802B@smtpauth01.csee.onr.siteprotect.com> Message-ID: This is interesting, Kathy: the concept of a third body. I've been thinking about all the posts from everyone about Facebook and other social networking sites. I wonder if we could productively extend Katherine Hayles's work on body/embodiment to understand what happens in these social networking sites? Extend it to a third term, sort of like Kathy's third body? Hayles draws a distinction between "body"--which is constructed by our culture and taught to us as we grow up--it's kind of like the body picture we get in health books in junior high--that kind of understanding of body--and "embodiment"--which is what we experience/live through in any one moment. Both are reciprocally connected, each feeding into the other, Hayles says. So maybe we need a third term--something that is constructed and experienced, but at a remove. Maybe "rebodiment"? No, that doesn't quite get at what I'm thinking either. Maybe designed body? That's closer. What might be happening to us in Facebook or MySpace is cultural body and experiencing body and designed body coming together. Maybe with this third term we might be able to ask what's appropriated to construct that designed body? What's mixed and remixed? What bits and pieces are put together? Then there's the question of the logic of the mixing. James Murphy once defined rhetoric as the study of means for future discourse. So might social networking folks be designing online bodies for future "discourse"? an invitation to take my bits and pieces and redesign? And since I believe that the boundary between online and offline is porous I wonder what traces of designed body are carried away from online experiences? I find those fascinating theoretical questions, but I also suspect that these answers--the possible knotting of body, embodiment,and designed bodies--have implications for understanding new literacies. I'd pursue those implications, but the body I'm experiencing at this precise moment is shutting down and the brain is checking out. Take care all. Kris ----- Original Message ----- From: Kathy Fitch Date: Thursday, November 29, 2007 8:19 pm Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > This reminded me of a Robert Bly poem: > > A Third Body > > A man and a woman sit near each other, and they do not long > at this moment to be older, or younger, nor born > in any other nation, or time, or place. > They are content to be where they are, talking or not-talking. > Their breaths together feed someone whom we do not know. > The man sees the way his fingers move; > he sees her hands close around a book she hands to him. > They obey a third body that they share in common. > They have made a promise to love that body. > Age may come, parting may come, death will come. > A man and a woman sit near each other; > as they breathe they feed someone we do not know, > someone we know of, whom we have never seen. > > Writing and reading both seem to me to be part of the work of > creating that > kind of third body. > > Just happened into a radio conversation about the theology of the body > today, too, and much of that is also instructive, here. This > particularconversation concerned pornography, but the metaphor at > the heart of it (the > idea that pornography attempts to fulfill with the equivalent of > non-nutritive junk food or drug the desires that can only really be > satisfied with a nourishing feast of love and connection) seems > pertinent to > this discussion, as well. > > Writing and reading have always seemed to me to be ways of flying > away from > the body. (No, materially we don't escape, but the material is but > oneaspect of life.) Of transcending it. Places where one's reach > can extend > far past one's fingertips, and where being visionary had nothing to > do with > eyes. And then, it always seems to me, that these flights make > settlinginto the skin easier, and actual vision and touch sharper, > morecompassionate, generally something better than they could > otherwise be. > Perhaps these are quaint notions, now, but writing online hasn't > alteredthat experience, for me. Meanwhile, the D&G BwO bit always > leaves me > feeling bleak and dissatisfied. Their rhizome metaphor has been > far and > away their most productive idea, and it seems to me that this is > because it > isn't so killingly bleak. People can embrace it without harming > themselves. > Kathy > > -----Original Message----- > From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of > PatriciaFreitag Ericsson > Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 10:26 AM > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses > to steve > > I'm not sure about ghostwriting or logographers, but it reminds me > of > Cyrano de Bergerac. Despite that connection to a drama that is at > least in part about texts and whose body is embodied, I can't seem > to > tease out more than a few speculative thoughts. Cyrano writes > everything for Christian--letters and snippets of conversation, but > without Cyrano, Christian is mute. Hmm. Seems like almost every > time > this scenario is played out in plays that are spin-offs, in other > dramas, and in the case of ghostwriters who write the celebrity > books, there is a mismatch--or an imagined mismatch--between the > "voice" of the supposed speaker/writer and the "voice" that the > ghostwriter gives them. Maybe someone else can tease more out of > this--if there is more. > > On the extension of the body and reading--although my first > reaction > was cannibalism, after a cup of morning tea, I have a few more > thoughts. Toward the end of the short essay I quoted from > yesterday, > Lupton and Miller, continuing the body metaphor, write about the > function of things like notes, figures, appendices, and even > footnotes as part of the body of the text. They analogize these > part > to "organs" that "nourish, impregnate, and sometimes deface, > infect, > the internal body." Their elaboration on the function of footnoes > is > really interesting, but ends with this "...footnotes diagram the > paternity of ideas." > > So how does that relate to the comsuption of this body? Well, I > think that most analogies suffer when they're extended to far, but > that aside, can we push this one a bit further? I think maybe. I > feel quite strongly about getting respect for the meals I make. I > work hard to make good meals for my family and a lot of my "body" > goes into the preparation of those meals. The rule has always been > that when my family sits down to dinner, we eat respectfully. We > start with small helpings of things we are not sure about and try > to > eat them quietly, without negative comment. Positive comments are > always welcome! Negative comments are allowed, but only after > dinner, after cleanup, in a more appropriate moment. Yes, decorum > and kairos. How does this relate to consuming someone else's text? > > If I put similar effort into writing a text, I expect the same kind > of respect from those who consume it. I think this is where we get > into trouble with our feedback to students. We do not need to > consume their work uncritically, but we do owe them respect on some > level. Even if we think they didn't put enough time or effort into > it, they did write it (well, if it's not plagiarized) and it is (if > we buy into Lupton and Miller) a trace of them. > > Once we get through the argument about the Lupton/Miller essay in > class (and there is a lot of push and pull about it which is really > interesting and fun), there's usually some sort of agreement that > writing is part of them. The floodgates then often open and they > can > articulat more clearly how they feel about their writing, about the > feedback they have gotten, and why their writing really does matter > to them. The first time this happened, I was pretty amazed. They > have a lot of scars, old wounds from feedback that has injured > them. > Their "writing bodies" are wounded. We often have a lot of repair > work to do on these bodies, but our pedagogy mostly ignores this > facet of our work. > > I've gone on too long and probably haven't made much sense. My > apologies. I think reading is a kind of consumption of another. > Maybe cannibalism isn't way off. > > Patty > > > > >I love this idea, too. But I have a test case. What do we do > about > >ghostwriters? (When I first thought of this, I was thinking of > >Deborah Brandt's fairly recent CE article on ghostwriters, but we > >could also go back to classical logographers--the first > >ghostwriters!--and reexamine that phenomenon within the context of > >biopsychology.) Whose body? > > > >Last point. If writing is an extension of the body, what is reading? > > > > > > > >Kris > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: Patricia Freitag Ericsson > >Date: Wednesday, November 28, 2007 11:04 am > >Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > >To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > > >> Perhaps random, but some thoughts and the final one might be the > > > most interesting/important. > >> > >> The Classical rhetoric we lean on here was tons about embodiment, > >> no? > >> I mean a lot of it was thought out/articulated in relationship to > >> speaking in person--directily embodied. > >> > >> There are bodies behind texts, yet, but how about bodies as texts? > >> That seems to be part of what we're talking about. We read the > >> body > >> behind the texts as texts. I showed a short cartoon as a part of > >> class a few years ago, and after it a student said "I can't > believe>> a > >> person who looks like you would show a cartoon like that." The > >> student thought s/he knew me by the way I had appeared in class > >> that > >> semester. > >> > >> All of my teachers in grade school were nuns--ones who wore the > old>> traditional habits. Talk about issues with embodiment!! > When a > >> tiny > >> whisp of hair appeared from under the headress thing, we were all > >> abuzz. After school, they disappeared into the convent--a > >> mysterious > >> place. Imagining them as having real bodies was almost > impossible.>> > >> Finally, texts have bodies, no? I'm thinking about Lupton and > >> Miller's essay "Body of the Book." "All objects manufactured for > >> use > >> are extensions of the body: food, furniture, shelter, and tools do > >> not lie in a region safely 'outside' the body, but instead are > >> continuations of the body, turning it inside out." They ask, "But > >> what if one were to see writing as an extension of the body, no > >> different in essence from an artificial limb or a contact lense? > >> Like > >> a chair supporting the human skeleton, writing supplments the > >> body's > >> capacity to speak: it is permanent rather than ephemeral, it > >> withstands movements in place and time, and it remains readable in > >> the absence of it's author." > >> > >> Later Lupton/Miller add the part that has pretty much shocked my > >> students and made them pay attention: "As the end-product of the > >> so-called 'thought process,' writging thus resembles excrement. > It > >> is also akin to hair, finger nails, and the surface of the skin- > - > >> each > >> is a part of the body that is continually regenerated yet > >> biologically dead, detachable, disposable. Writing is like blook, > >> sweat, semen, saliva, and otehr substances that the body > >> periodically > >> produces and eliminates." > >> > >> Patty > >> > >> > >> > >> >This reminds me of something else we often have to work really > >> hard on > >> >with students -- though maybe it just spins it back ground to > your>> >original points, Kris -- helping students see the bodies > behind>> texts.>Texts are people talking, ultimately, and it > changes the way > >> students>imagine the text to imagine ("flesh out"?) the people > >> behind them. In > >> >my Comp II classes, I have students read Carol Berkenkotter's > long- > >> ago>C's article following Donald Murray through his invention > >> process. The > >> >piece ends with a reflection by Murray himself (an early example > >> of a > >> >research design allowing the "subject" to speak back to the > >> researcher's>story) -- and it really bends students' > perspectives. > >> They also read > >> >Murray's piece "All Writing is Autobiography," and have the > double>> >experience both of Murray talking about himself and > (now) reading a > >> >eulogy written by one of his longtime proteges at the Boston > Globe.>> >>From experiences like that -- getting students to pay > attention>> to *how* > >> >they "embody" -- or don't -- the writers of their texts, we work > >> out to > >> >other texts where it's harder to imagine the writer in the > flesh. > >> (It>helps to have had lunch with the writers, so you can tell > >> students what > >> >they eat.) > >> > > >> >So I love the thinking you're doing here about audience inventing > >> rhetor>(rhetor-audience-invoked?) . . . and who has to have what > >> bodies to do > >> >which things . . . and how at one level, the entire point of > >> writing has > >> >always been to *disembody* the writer, so their words can be > where> > they>are not -- and yet good blogging software allows > photo uploads > >> (not to > >> >mention Facebook/etc.) and there is Haas and Takayoshi's > developing>> >research on how emoticons in chat are used as much > to re-embody the > > > >writer (return them lost facial gesture) as to clarify > meaning. . > >> . . > >> >For a guy who's too much in his head, this is kinda > mindbending . > >> . . > >> > > >> >Cheers -- > >> >Doug > >> > > >> > > >> >Dr. Doug Downs > >> >Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric > >> >Writing Program Coordinator > >> >Dept. of English and Literature > >> >Utah Valley State College > >> >800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 > >> >LA 126g > >> >801-863-8572 > >> >>>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" 11/28/07 4:45 > >> AM >>> > >> >So persuasion is a kind of wish fulfillment? Instead of the > rhetor>> >inventing the audience, the audience invents the rhetor > (and in the > >> >process become what they imagine?). Hoot! Now that has some > >> >interesting possibilities as a thought experiment, esp. when we > >> switch>it to the class and consider the teacher as rhetor and the > >> students as > >> >audience. > >> > > >> >What's the wish students want fulfilled and how do they > "invent" the > >> >teacher? I suspect that answers to those questions will shift as > >> >students move through the public school system. I also suspect > >> that the > >> >"embodied" teaching experiences of teachers in the K-3 > classrooms are > >> >different from those in the 4-6 classrooms (and different yet > >> again from > >> >the 7-8, 9-12 classrooms). Maybe because the "wishes" are > different?>> > > >> >And what happens when that wish fulfillment is stymied by the > >> teacher's>body? For instance, I just had a grad student in my > >> office yesterday > >> >chatting about a variety of things. And out of the blue (or what > >> seemed>to me the blue), she asked me if my height ever caused me > >> problems in > >> >the classroom (I'm 5' 2"). She said she thought her students saw > >> her as > >> >short (she's 5') and thus without authority. > >> > > >> >Does that mean, then, that students who wish an "authority" > teacher>> >might be unable to fulfill that wish with a teacher who > does not > >> >physically meet their vision of authority? Saying something > like,>> "Oh,>that teacher doesn't have an "authority" body?" Or > might they > >> learn to > >> >fulfill that wish according to other criteria? > >> > > >> >Susan's ethos question and your response, Doug, were also in the > >> back of > >> >my head as I read through NCTE's Inbox this morning, esp. the > >> section on > >> >the NCTE blogs...the ones where participants posted responses to > >> NCTE in > >> >NYC? Traci Gardner's response blog addressed the question of > >> teachers>blogging: should teachers be blogging and/or > participating>> on social > >> >networking sites? I guess some school systems are urging > teachers to > >> >avoid both. > >> > > >> >Doesn't it seem as if part of the concern stems from issues of > >> >embodiment--life outside of school, life as something other > than a > >> >talking head? (I remember when I was in grade school--I saw my > >> second>grade teacher in the grocery store, and I was shocked. > >> What? Teachers > >> >buy food?) > >> > > >> >Fascinating and important, all of this. > >> > > >> >Kris > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >----- Original Message ----- > >> >From: Doug Downs > >> >Date: Tuesday, November 27, 2007 10:57 am > >> >Subject: Re: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > >> >To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >> > > >> >> Well put, Kris. It only took the Roman Catholic Church > 'til this > >> >> century to apologize for believing Aristotle over Galileo on > >> >> astronomy. > >> >> I don't hear enough rhetoricians admit that he was simply, > flatly>> >> wrongabout ethos. Or, perhaps, that he was speaking > of how he > >> >> *wished* it > >> >> were rather than how it *is*. In the flesh and blood world, > >> >> everythingwe know about the rhetor -- not simply the rhetor as > >> they>> appear in > >> >> their text or, more broadly, in the delivery of their text, > >> >> matters. > >> >> > >> >> Of course, it's easier to see that, maybe, in a visual and > >> electronic>> world than it was in a world where almost all > >> rhetoric took place > >> >> in-person and from memory. > > > >> > >> >> Usually we can think about ethos as a matter of identification > >> with>> image -- if I the rhetor resemble (particularly in values > >> and ways of > >> >> being) you the audience, I likely have high ethos. What's > > > interesting>> about "right" bodies and ethos is that rather than > >> identification with > >> >> how the audience *is*, ethos may derive from identification > >> with what > >> >> the audience *wants*. . . . But then, of course, ethos is > always>> >> derived from being what the audience wishes it were > rather than > >> >> what it > >> > > necessarily is. > >> >> > >> >> Cheers -- > >> >> Doug > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> Dr. Doug Downs > >> >> Asst. Professor, Composition & Rhetoric > >> >> Writing Program Chair > >> >> Dept. of English and Literature > >> >> Utah Valley State College > >> >> 800 W University Pkwy, Orem UT 84058 > >> >> LA 126g > >> >> 801-863-8572 > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >>> "Kristie Fleckenstein" 11/27/2007 > >> 2:42 AM > >> >> >>> > >> >> You know, tho', Susan, even Aristotelian ethos had a material > >> aspect,>> one related to the body through eunoia, or > friendliness.>> >> Regardless of > >> >> A's saying that good character is created only through the > >> words of a > >> > > speech, he also points to the importance of creating a > physical>> >> appearance that establishes friendliness. Even > delivery has a > >> role to > >> >> play in ethos. > >> >> > >> >> So I don't think you're off the mark to consider bodies as > part>> of our > >> >> rhetorical toolbox. > >> >> > >> >> Maybe the problem is that bodies matter, but that bodies > matter in > >> >> potentially negative and pejorative ways; i.e., because you > do not > >> >> possess the "right" body, you can't make that argument (or you > >> can't>> make that argument persuasively). > >> >> > >> >> Perhaps this cultural reality constitutes another important > >> area of > >> >> critical engagement for our students and for us as teachers? > >> >> > >> >> Kris > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> ----- Original Message ----- > >> >> From: Susan Miller-Cochran > >> >> Date: Sunday, November 25, 2007 9:41 pm > >> >> Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > >> >> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >> >> > >> >> > Kristie, > >> >> > > >> >> > Thank you for such a marvelous, thought-provoking module. > In the > >> >> > spirit of > >> >> > sharing anecdotal evidence of (dis)embodied writing, I > started>> >> > thinkingabout some of my own teaching > practices...perhaps>> with a > >> >> > bit of chagrin. I > >> >> > thought about how our bodies, or how our bodies are > perceived by > >> >> > others, can > >> >> > silence us and limit the ways in which we "can" use > language.>> And>> I > >> >> > thoughtof the discussions I have had with my students about > >> >> > developing ethos in an > >> >> > argument--how we can/'t make certain arguments because of > who we > >> >> > are or how > >> >> > our bodies are represented....discussions that often end > with>> >> > statementslike, "You might have trouble making that > argument.">> >> What > >> >> > I'm often saying > >> >> > to students, without directly saying it, is "You might have > >> >> trouble > >> >> > makingthat argument because of how you are seen by > others." I > >> >> don't > >> >> > want to say > >> >> > that out loud, but that's often what I mean. And I'm > embarrassed>> >> to > >> >> > admitit. > >> >> > > >> >> > I'm not sure where my thoughts are going with this, but > you've>> >> > given me > >> >> > cause to rethink the ways that I approach these kinds of > >> >> > discussions with my > >> >> > students. > >> >> > > >> >> > Enough of my rambling for now. :) > >> >> > > >> >> > Susan > >> >> > > >> >> > -----Original Message----- > >> >> > From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > >> >> > [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On > >> Behalf Of > >> >> > KristieFleckenstein > >> >> > Sent: Sunday, November 25, 2007 5:35 PM > >> >> > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >> >> > Subject: [Teaching_Composition] responses to steve > >> >> > > >> >> > Hey, Steve. For some reason, I never received your post. I > >> found>> > it at the > >> >> > end of Kathy's. So I did a little cutting and pasting. > >> >> > > >> >> > Here's what you wrote. > > > >> > > >> >> > Kristie's post brings something to mind. Recently, the > General>> >> > Educationcommittee at my school proposed that > courses satisfying > >> >> > the college's > >> >> > diversity requirement not be taught online until we knew > more> > >> about > >> >> > howstudents negotiate racial and ethnic identities in > digital>> >> > environments. It > >> >> > seemed to me a basic question about embodiment was being > asked.>> >> > > >> >> > Here's my response. > >> >> > > >> >> > I think you're right. It is, at heart, an embodiment > question,>> >> and > >> >> > one we > >> >> > need to keep reminding ourselves to ask. > >> >> > > >> >> > It reminds me of Coco Fusco's work in _The Bodies that > Were Not > >> >> Ours_. > >> >> > (Fusco's a performance artist at Columbia U, and I've just > >> >> > discovered her > >> >> > work.) She's concerned that digital technologies too easily > >> lead to > >> >> > disembodiment in a couple ways. First, we users tend to > forget>> >> > that all > >> >> > that hardware has likely been assembled in a third world low > >> wage> > > assemble-line factory (she did 3 years of research > in the > >> >> factories > >> >> > alongthe Mexican border). AND we tend to assume that bodies > >> >> don't > >> >> > matter on line > >> >> > (back to the New Yorker cartoon-the one with the two dogs, > >> one at > >> >> a > >> >> > computerterminal who tells the other one that no one knows > >> you're>> a > >> >> > dog online). > >> >> > Fusco wants to keep reminding us that, yes, bodies do > matter,>> >> > especiallyonline. > >> >> > > >> >> > It seems as if your school has gotten this message. So how > >> do we > >> > > > answerthat question? > >> >> > > >> >> > I know there are folks who are looking at the way in > which we > >> >> carry > >> >> > realworld biases with us into virtual world spaces. But > does>> >> > anyone on the list > >> >> > know of research that looks at the way our minority students > >> >> configure > >> >> > themselves in online environments? And, if not, how do > we go > >> >> about > >> >> > gettinganswers to these questions? > >> >> > > >> >> > Ideas? > >> >> > > >> >> > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > >> >> > Department of English > >> >> > Florida State University > >> >> > 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > >> >> > P. O. Box 3061580 > >> >> > Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > >> >> > 850.644.3530 (O) > >> >> > 850.644.0811 (F) > >> >> > kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > >> >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > Teaching_Composition maillist - > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listin > fo/teaching_composition > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > To unsubscribe, please visit > >> >> > > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition>> > and>> > updateyour information. > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > _______________________________________________ > >> >> > Teaching_Composition maillist - > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listin > fo/teaching_composition > >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > To unsubscribe, please visit > >> >> > > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition>> > and>> > update your information. > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > >> >> Department of English > >> >> Florida State University > >> >> 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > >> >> P. O. Box 3061580 > >> >> Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > >> >> 850.644.3530 (O) > >> >> 850.644.0811 (F) > >> >> kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Teaching_Composition maillist - > >> >> Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > >> >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > >> >> > >> >> To unsubscribe, please visit > >> >> > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > >> >> update your information. > >> >> _______________________________________________ > >> >> Teaching_Composition maillist - > >> >> > >> > >Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listin > fo/teaching_composition > >> >> > >> >> To unsubscribe, please visit > >> >> > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > >> >> update your information. > > > >> > >> > > >> >Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > >> >Department of English > >> >Florida State University > >> >405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > >> >P. O. Box 3061580 > >> >Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > >> >850.644.3530 (O) > >> >850.644.0811 (F) > > > >kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >Teaching_Composition maillist - > >> > >>Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com>http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/list > info/teaching_composition > >> > > >> >To unsubscribe, please visit > >> >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > >> update>your information. > >> > > >> >_______________________________________________ > >> >Teaching_Composition maillist - > >> > >>Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com>http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/list > info/teaching_composition > >> > > >> >To unsubscribe, please visit > >> >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > >> >update your information. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> > >> > >> Patricia Freitag Ericsson, PhD > >> Director, Digital Technology and Culture Program > >> Assistant Professor, Department of English > >> Washington State University > >> Pullman, WA 99164 > >> ericsson@wsu.edu > >> _______________________________________________ > >> Teaching_Composition maillist - > >> > >>Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listi > nfo/teaching_composition > >> > >> To unsubscribe, please visit > >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > >> update your information. > >> > > > >Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor > >Department of English > >Florida State University > >405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way > >P. O. Box 3061580 > >Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 > >850.644.3530 (O) > >850.644.0811 (F) > >kfleckenstein@fsu.edu > >_______________________________________________ > >Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com>http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > > >To unsubscribe, please visit > >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > >update your information. > > > -- > > > Patricia Freitag Ericsson, PhD > Director, Digital Technology and Culture Program > Assistant Professor, Department of English > Washington State University > Pullman, WA 99164 > ericsson@wsu.edu > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > updateyour information. > > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - > Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.comhttp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > To unsubscribe, please visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition and > update your information. > Kristie S. Fleckenstein, Associate Professor Department of English Florida State University 405 Williams Bldg., 631 University Way P. O. Box 3061580 Tallahassee, FL 32306-1580 850.644.3530 (O) 850.644.0811 (F) kfleckenstein@fsu.edu