[Teaching_Composition] Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #1124 - 5 msgs
Mink, Phil
teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
Fri, 6 Oct 2006 22:34:26 -0400
From: pmink@udel.edu
Please take me off of this list!!!!!!!!!!
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Sent: Friday, October 06, 2006 6:57 PM
Subject: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #1124 - 5 msgs
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re politics and writing (Phyllis Ryder)
> 2. Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #1123 - 3 msgs (Charles
> Nelson)
> 3. Re: Rhetorical analysis of scientific research report (Russ Hunt)
> 4. Re: Rhetorical analysis of scientific research report (Neal Lerner)
> 5. RE: Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #1123 - 3 msgs
> (Thelin,William)
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 1
> From: Phyllis Ryder <pryder@gwu.edu>
> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 16:35:14 -0400
> Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re politics and writing
> Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
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> Hello all,
> I'm going to chime in here in response to Kathy's post about politics in
> the classroom. I'm with you all the way, and I agree with the distinction
> between endorsing a questioning, inquiring attitude towards knowledge vs.
> proposing that students must agree with our asertions about race or gender
> or whatever because they are the correct ones.
> And yet, I'm also very self conscious (as I'm in the midst of reading
> Sharon Crowley's Towards a Civil Discourse in which she analyzes the
> discourse of Apocalpytic Christians) that this very view of the purpose of
> education--and the value of writing--is itself a political position.
> George Lakoff's Moral Politics makes a similar point that the moral
> imperative for questioning and for nurturing questioning is itself a
> political position (as opposed to teaching self-control and obedience to
> moral imperatives).
> I'm quite willing, then, to say that I as an academic have a
> responsibility to teach this value as a fixed one: the value of inquiry
> and exploration and listening to many positions before I take one. I'm
> also quite willing to keep putting pressure on students to keep looking
> around and reading and questioning as they are arriving at their
> positions.
> Yet I must do so with an awareness that the Horowitz's of the world, and
> many others, might consider this a trip towards moral relativism and a
> dangerous path towards hell. They might believe that a University
> professor should be doing more to bolster a particular moral view so that
> all might rise up with the Rapture.
> Phyllis
> University Writing Program
> The George Washington University
> (who also writes with many parenthesis and dashes.)
>
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>
> <BODY><P>Hello all,</P>
> <P>I'm going to chime in here in response to Kathy's post about politics
> in the classroom. I'm with you all the way, and I agree with the
> distinction between endorsing a questioning, inquiring attitude towards
> knowledge vs. proposing that students must agree with our asertions about
> race or gender or whatever because they are the correct ones. </P>
> <P>And yet, I'm also very self conscious (as I'm in the midst of reading
> Sharon Crowley's <EM>Towards a Civil Discourse </EM>in which she analyzes
> the discourse of Apocalpytic Christians) that this very view of the
> purpose of education--and the value of writing--is itself a political
> position. George Lakoff's <EM>Moral Politics</EM> makes a similar
> point that the moral imperative for questioning and for nurturing
> questioning is itself a political position (as opposed to teaching
> self-control and obedience to moral imperatives). </P>
> <P>I'm quite willing, then, to say that I as an academic have a
> responsibility to teach this value as a fixed one: the value of inquiry
> and exploration and listening to many positions before I take one.
> I'm also quite willing to keep putting pressure on students to keep
> looking around and reading and questioning as they are arriving at their
> positions. </P>
> <P>Yet I must do so with an awareness that the Horowitz's of the world,
> and many others, might consider this a trip towards moral relativism and a
> dangerous path towards hell. They might believe that a University
> professor should be doing more to bolster a particular moral view so that
> all might rise up with the Rapture.</P>
> <P>Phyllis <BR>University Writing Program<BR>The George Washington
> University<BR>(who also writes with many parenthesis and
> dashes.)</P></BODY>
>
> ----f11e18726edf8295644--
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 17:01:18 -0400
> From: "Charles Nelson" <charles.p.nelson@gmail.com>
> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
> Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1
> #1123 - 3 msgs
> Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
>
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>
> Bill, for me, it's not the social or political issues that are taboo in a
> composition classroom. I like my classes to do rhetorical analyses of the
> presidential elections. I sometimes might bring in topics that are
> currently
> in the news to look at the rhetoric, for instance, of the Foley scandal,
> or
> a little while ago, the court decisions making same sex marriage legal in
> Massachusetts but illegal in New York. I do so because I feel, I hope,
> issues presently in the news may spark the interest of the students.
>
> The problem for me is when an instructor has a particular agenda and
> accordingly brings in topics that will "enlighten" the students. It
> doesn't
> matter whether that agenda aligns with the status quo or opposes it. What
> matters is how strongly the instructor is committed to his/her agenda. The
> more strongly one holds a particular position, the harder it is not to
> move
> across the line from education into indoctrination, or at least, into a
> conflict of interest between having students engage in critical thinking
> as
> opposed to being cautious or worse due to their understanding of the
> instructor's position. Conflicts of interest are considered unethical,
> sometimes illegal, in some professions. Lawyers, for instance, can't
> represent both plaintiff and defendant. And just look at the research on
> conflict of interest in pharmaceutical studies. I don't remember the exact
> numbers and can't cite studies, but there is a significant difference
> (15%?)
> in findings between researchers hired by a company and those with no
> connection to a company. If there's such a difference in research that can
> be easily quantified and measured, how much more so for discussing fuzzy
> social-political issues. For me, it's just common sense that a conflict of
> interest can undermine goals of critical thinking and learning in general.
>
> Charles Nelson
>
> Is taking the
>> rhetorical approach you're suggesting an acceptable way to look at both
>> mundane and controversial topics? Or is any type of assignment that
>> assumes content inappropriate? Or is it only race, class, gender,
>> sexuality, and hierarchy, among other cultural and social issues, that
>> are taboo content in the composition classroom? If it is simply the
>> introduction of reading and analysis to a writing course, the
>> disagreement's substance is an old argument between expressivists and
>> social constructionists/social-epistemics. If, however, we are simply
>> suppressing particular topics because instructors with political =
>> commitments might give students a fresh, critical view to =
>> consider/account for in their writing, we are marking one set of =
>> politics as unacceptable and masking the other set--the one aligned with
>> =
>> the status quo--under the guise of neutrality and concern for students' =
>> freedom of expression. Your insights, Chris and Will, would be much =
>> welcome, as would others.
>> =20
>> Bill
>
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>
> Bill, for me, it's not the social or political issues that are taboo in a
> c=
> omposition classroom. I like my classes to do rhetorical analyses of the
> pr=
> esidential elections. I sometimes might bring in topics that are currently
> =
> in the news to look at the rhetoric, for instance, of the Foley scandal,
> or=
> a little while ago, the court decisions making same sex marriage legal in
> =
> Massachusetts but illegal in New York. I do so because I feel, I hope,
> issu=
> es presently in the news may spark the interest of the students.
> <br><br>The problem for me is when an instructor has a particular agenda
> an=
> d accordingly brings in topics that will "enlighten" the
> students=
> . It doesn't matter whether that agenda aligns with the status quo or
> oppos=
> es it. What matters is how strongly the instructor is committed to his/her
> =
> agenda. The more strongly one holds a particular position, the harder it
> is=
> not to move across the line from education into indoctrination, or at
> leas=
> t, into a conflict of interest between having students engage in critical
> t=
> hinking as opposed to being cautious or worse due to their understanding
> of=
> the instructor's position. Conflicts of interest are considered
> unethical,=
> sometimes illegal, in some professions. Lawyers, for instance, can't
> repre=
> sent both plaintiff and defendant. And just look at the research on
> conflic=
> t of interest in pharmaceutical studies. I don't remember the exact
> numbers=
> and can't cite studies, but there is a significant difference (15%?) in
> fi=
> ndings between researchers hired by a company and those with no connection
> =
> to a company. If there's such a difference in research that can be easily
> q=
> uantified and measured, how much more so for discussing fuzzy
> social-politi=
> cal issues. For me, it's just common sense that a conflict of interest can
> =
> undermine goals of critical thinking and learning in general.=20
> <br><br>Charles Nelson<br><br><div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote"
> style=
> =3D"border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex;
> p=
> adding-left: 1ex;">Is taking the<br>rhetorical approach you're suggesting
> a=
> n acceptable way to look at both
> <br>mundane and controversial topics? Or is any type of
> assignme=
> nt that<br>assumes content inappropriate? Or is it only race,
> cl=
> ass, gender,<br>sexuality, and hierarchy, among other cultural and social
> i=
> ssues, that<br>are taboo content in the composition
> classroom? I=
> f it is simply the
> <br>introduction of reading and analysis to a writing course,
> the<br>disagr=
> eement's substance is an old argument between expressivists and<br>social
> c=
> onstructionists/social-epistemics. If, however, we are
> simply<br=
>>suppressing particular topics because instructors with political =3D
> <br>commitments might give students a fresh, critical view to
> =3D<br>consid=
> er/account for in their writing, we are marking one set of =3D<br>politics
> =
> as unacceptable and masking the other set--the one aligned with =3D<br>the
> =
> status quo--under the guise of neutrality and concern for students' =3D
> <br>freedom of expression. Your insights, Chris and Will, would
> =
> be much =3D<br>welcome, as would
> others.<br>=3D20<br>Bill</blockquote></div=
>>
>
> ------=_Part_162901_13865738.1160168478533--
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 3
> From: Russ Hunt <hunt@stu.ca>
> Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Rhetorical analysis of scientific
> research report
> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
> Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 18:10:54 -0300
> Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
>
> Like Irv, I suspect, I've really been trying to find a way to avoid
> this fascinating and powerful discussion . . . and I've now
> capitulated, partly because yesterday in the hard mail I got copies of
> an essay I wrote which ends by describing an incident that seems to me
> at the dead center of what we're talking about. I didn't know what to
> do then (though I made a decision) and I still don't.
>
> It's at the end of a piece I wrote about "authentic" teaching. It
> recounts an incident where a group of students were investigating a
> historical incident where people's beliefs were challenged or changed.
> They'd started by looking at John Kerry's testimony about Vietnam in
> 1971, but their progress was (I thought) derailed by the Swift Boat
> Veterans' Web presence. I resisted telling them what I thought of the
> Swift Boat Veterans, preferring to try to create a situation in which
> they'd discover the "truth" (as I saw it). They never did.
>
> A fuller account is here:
>
> http://www.stu.ca/~hunt/authcons.htm#knot
>
> I've been thinking hard about this in the light of this discussion.
> Any thoughts anybody has will be welcome.
>
> -- Russ
>
> Russell Hunt
> Department of English
> St. Thomas University
> http://www.stu.ca/~hunt/
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 4
> From: Neal Lerner <nlerner@MIT.EDU>
> Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Rhetorical analysis of scientific
> research report
> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 18:05:51 -0400
> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
> Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
>
> Russ, that's a powerful story. One thing I'm struck by is not how
> that group would come to their conclusions as influenced by the Swift
> Boat Veterans, but that there was no consequence one way or the other
> of their final document, no larger arena of ideas to which it would
> need to withstand scrutiny. I agree that it wasn't necessarily the
> role of instructional staff to challenge the ideas in the final
> document, but the artificiality of most classroom writing situations
> (and yours is a wonderfully crafted task) precludes pushing student
> work out into a more public realm. There's no guarantee, of course,
> that the public realm would offer the kind of challenge you were
> seeking, but I'm wondering how potentially the rhetorical situation
> could have been made that much more complete.
>
> Neal Lerner
>
> On Oct 6, 2006, at 5:10 PM, Russ Hunt wrote:
>
>> Like Irv, I suspect, I've really been trying to find a way to avoid
>> this fascinating and powerful discussion . . . and I've now
>> capitulated, partly because yesterday in the hard mail I got copies
>> of an essay I wrote which ends by describing an incident that seems
>> to me at the dead center of what we're talking about. I didn't know
>> what to do then (though I made a decision) and I still don't.
>>
>> It's at the end of a piece I wrote about "authentic" teaching. It
>> recounts an incident where a group of students were investigating a
>> historical incident where people's beliefs were challenged or
>> changed. They'd started by looking at John Kerry's testimony about
>> Vietnam in 1971, but their progress was (I thought) derailed by the
>> Swift Boat Veterans' Web presence. I resisted telling them what I
>> thought of the Swift Boat Veterans, preferring to try to create a
>> situation in which they'd discover the "truth" (as I saw it). They
>> never did.
>>
>> A fuller account is here:
>>
>> http://www.stu.ca/~hunt/authcons.htm#knot
>>
>> I've been thinking hard about this in the light of this discussion.
>> Any thoughts anybody has will be welcome.
>>
>> -- Russ
>>
>> Russell Hunt
>> Department of English
>> St. Thomas University
>> http://www.stu.ca/~hunt/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Teaching_Composition maillist -
>> Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com
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>>
>> To unsubscribe, please visit http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/
>> listinfo/teaching_composition and update your information.
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> Message: 5
> Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1
> #1123 - 3 msgs
> Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2006 18:55:44 -0400
> From: "Thelin,William" <wthelin@uakron.edu>
> To: <teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com>
> Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
>
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
>
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>
> Perhaps you could explain what the line is between education and =
> indoctrination? In a 15 week course, where students will see an =
> instructor 2 /1 2 to 3 1/4 hours a week, I find it highly improbable =
> that any student could become indoctrinated. It's much more likely that =
> in a media drenched society, one that blasts the messages of corporate =
> capitalism, racism, sexism, montheism, and heterosexism 24/7, a student =
> will capitulate at a subconscious level to the ideology being espoused. =
> A voice resistant to this indoctrination--probably because the person =
> behind the voice realized that the dominant ideology does not work for =
> people like him or her or the vast majority of other people--is not the =
> perpetrator of indoctrination. That voice is working toward =
> counter-hegemony, toward societal and individual liberty. While =
> counter-hegemonic thought certainly has ideals and beliefs of its own, =
> it is incapable of indoctrinating because it does not have the power to =
> do so in the higher educational system because it lacks access and =
> capital. Indoctrination against the status quo can only occur when an =
> individual is isolated from the larger society or is surrounded only by =
> followers who think the same as her or him. The power comes in church =
> groups, for instance, or in counter-culture cults. Barring this, a =
> change in someone's thoughts when it resists the status quo comes from =
> enlightenment due to education, not indoctrination.
> =20
> I have a feeling we're not hearing each other, Charles. I have said, I =
> believe more than once, that I do not believe that instructors should =
> preach their convictions in class. But there's a difference between =
> presenting a position to the students--one that is based in logic and =
> fact, one that understands the historical, cultural, contingent moment, =
> one that is steeped in sensitivity for the oppressed--and having =
> students wrangle with it in problems that are directly generated by them =
> or relevant to them, and having students repeat an instructor's position =
> in a paper without a chance to challenge it or limit it or extend it or =
> test it, at the risk a poor grade or other ostracization if they don't =
> do it. To me, the former is ed.ucation. That pedagogy is steeped in =
> political convictions, however. It believes that the system as it is =
> currently run is not working for the benefit of the vast majority of =
> humans and virtually all other non-human life forms and locates the =
> source of the problem Is not the pedagogy I hear from you also steeped =
> in political convictions? For me, it is the pedagogy of the status quo, =
> one designed to ensure that counter-hegemonic thought cannot be taken =
> seriously by the vast majority of the students we educate. Its silence =
> allows the propaganda of the status quo to drown out critiques from the =
> left.
> =20
> The arena of the classroom is not even when teaching starts. We cannot =
> pretend it is.
> =20
> Bill
>
> ________________________________
>
> From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com on behalf of Charles =
> Nelson
> Sent: Fri 10/6/2006 5:01 PM
> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
> Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 =
> #1123 - 3 msgs
>
>
> Bill, for me, it's not the social or political issues that are taboo in =
> a composition classroom. I like my classes to do rhetorical analyses of =
> the presidential elections. I sometimes might bring in topics that are =
> currently in the news to look at the rhetoric, for instance, of the =
> Foley scandal, or a little while ago, the court decisions making same =
> sex marriage legal in Massachusetts but illegal in New York. I do so =
> because I feel, I hope, issues presently in the news may spark the =
> interest of the students.=20
>
> The problem for me is when an instructor has a particular agenda and =
> accordingly brings in topics that will "enlighten" the students. It =
> doesn't matter whether that agenda aligns with the status quo or opposes =
> it. What matters is how strongly the instructor is committed to his/her =
> agenda. The more strongly one holds a particular position, the harder it =
> is not to move across the line from education into indoctrination, or at =
> least, into a conflict of interest between having students engage in =
> critical thinking as opposed to being cautious or worse due to their =
> understanding of the instructor's position. Conflicts of interest are =
> considered unethical, sometimes illegal, in some professions. Lawyers, =
> for instance, can't represent both plaintiff and defendant. And just =
> look at the research on conflict of interest in pharmaceutical studies. =
> I don't remember the exact numbers and can't cite studies, but there is =
> a significant difference (15%?) in findings between researchers hired by =
> a company and those with no connection to a company. If there's such a =
> difference in research that can be easily quantified and measured, how =
> much more so for discussing fuzzy social-political issues. For me, it's =
> just common sense that a conflict of interest can undermine goals of =
> critical thinking and learning in general.=20
>
> Charles Nelson
>
>
>
> Is taking the
> rhetorical approach you're suggesting an acceptable way to look at both =
>
> mundane and controversial topics? Or is any type of assignment that
> assumes content inappropriate? Or is it only race, class, gender,
> sexuality, and hierarchy, among other cultural and social issues, that
> are taboo content in the composition classroom? If it is simply the=20
> introduction of reading and analysis to a writing course, the
> disagreement's substance is an old argument between expressivists and
> social constructionists/social-epistemics. If, however, we are simply
> suppressing particular topics because instructors with political =3D=20
> commitments might give students a fresh, critical view to =3D
> consider/account for in their writing, we are marking one set of =3D
> politics as unacceptable and masking the other set--the one aligned =
> with =3D
> the status quo--under the guise of neutrality and concern for students' =
> =3D=20
> freedom of expression. Your insights, Chris and Will, would be much =
> =3D
> welcome, as would others.
> =3D20
> Bill
>
>
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>
> ------_=_NextPart_001_01C6E99A.8E16CCED--
>
>
> --__--__--
>
> _______________________________________________
> Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com
> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition
>
>
> End of Teaching_Composition Digest
>