[Teaching_Composition] Critical vs Radical

Wed, 4 Oct 2006 08:42:19 -0400

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I'm not sure you are representing my views accurately, Kathy.  It seems
to me that the change in students you want is driven by a political
ethos as much as mine is, but somehow you view your goals as not
crossing a line while mine do.  There's too much of an either/or
mentality for me to penetrate, so I'll just leave this be.  Let me just
say that I do not find students lazy.  I think they have been socialized
into viewing education as a game, and when they see they can get an "A"
by not thinking critically-or when they hear from their roommate how
easy a certain class is-they will gravitate toward the demands that are
easier.  I don't think they actually like it this way.  It's just that
they have been trained to judge success in education by the extrinsic
reward of grades rather than the intrinsic reward of knowledge.  And, of
course, much of the curriculum did not matter to them in high school and
was not made relevant, so who can blame them for doing as little as
possible?  The view of students that I find condescending, one
propagated by Maxine Hairston years ago, among others, is that students
cannot handle the politics that come with writing, that somehow they're
not ready.  If we view students as wilting when faced with political
challenges, we obviously must consider them much too fragile to take on
the responsibilities of higher education.

=20

Bill

=20

________________________________

From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com
[mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] On Behalf Of Kathy
Fitch
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 5:10 PM
To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com
Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] Critical vs Radical

=20

And yet, Bill, you chose an exceedingly benign description of critical
pedagogy the first time round, which I why I raised the question.
Teaching toward thinking and teaching what to think are not, I think,
the same.   Questioning and examining relationships to pets, say, is not
the same as unraveling them to the point where "exploitative" is the
only correct way (or cast as the obviously superior way, from the
grade-wielding teacher's perspective) to see the thing.

=20

I've not met many students who truly prefer to write boring essays-or
boring anything.  Students don't enjoy being bored.  Perhaps, confronted
with a teacher who assumes that they can only write vapidly about
pets-or whatever-(joy, apparently, being vapid, though I'd argue that
it's actually one of the more complicated states of mind to write about
well), boring seems the safest way out.   Saying  nothing much at all
leaves few openings for the teacher to attack one's apparently inferior
mind.  If students carefully master the art (it is one, for sure) of
saying nothing much of note at whatever length is required to fulfill
the assignment, why be shocked, under the circumstances?  Seems a smart
solution to me.

=20

This bit

=20

<<Probably my most important response to Kathy's last two posts is to
counter her position about the illegitimacy of having an ideological
goal in mind that ideally would result in change for students. >>=20

=20

Is not a countering but a reiteration of my stance.  Education results
in change.  Clearly, we share a hope that it's change for the better, or
we wouldn't bother.  Aiming for a *specific* change (e.g. you can't be
one of those damned right-wing extremists anymore if you're a *real*
thinker, or vice-versa) is another thing. =20

=20

And this

=20

<<I would prefer instructors who might get too pushy and force students
to actually consider an alternative perspective than an instructor who
says, "Hands off" and helps a student create an argument that claims,
for example, the poor and homeless are just lazy. >>

=20

so extraordinary that I'm not sure where to start. I'll just say that it
seems to me that there is more than one way to write well about poverty
and homelessness.  I could help a student write an essay that took a
conservative stance toward these things.  But, I don't begin with the
notion that this would entail constructing a "they're just lazy,"
argument, anymore than I would begin with the assumption that a more
liberal take on things would amount to "they're just victims."  So, yes,
I see a huge difference indeed between questioning and examining and
narrowly unraveling.  We question and examine to enrich and deepen our
understanding, whichever direction (there are many, bound to shift over
our lifetimes if questioning and examining get to be skills and then
habits) they might lead us in.  Merely unraveling-just breaking some
select set of things-is something else.  You seem to see an awful lot of
such things in students that you wish to break!

=20

Maybe "raveling" is better diction, since it contains both the notion of
undoing and the notion of creating.  I'm after both, I suppose.  Take
the thing apart to see how it's put together, then make it (or something
to take its place) anew, with your new insight into its structure and
function to enrich you.  To me, there's joy in that, and joy in watching
students learn how to do it-seeing the sparks fly. =20

=20

Your take on students-that they prefer the easy way out, that they lean
toward the simplistic, that they'd tend toward a "they're just lazy"
take on the world if we didn't somehow disabuse them of such inferior
views, or save them from such simple ways-seems terribly bleak, and not
a little insulting.

=20

I love to write, so if I found myself in, for instance, the spot of
having to write the pets paper in the kind of confrontational class you
describe, I'd probably write the hell out of the joy one, just to be a
snot-maybe hand it in while the ink on drop slip was still wet.  But
what of the students who come to us with less confidence, less spirit,
less writing skill, less willingness to tick off teacher?   Their
unraveling is, to me, a heartrending thing.

=20

Kathy

=20

=20

=20

=20

=20

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<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I&#8217;m not sure you are =
representing my
views accurately, Kathy.&nbsp; It seems to me that the change in =
students you
want is driven by a political ethos as much as mine is, but somehow you =
view your
goals as not crossing a line while mine do.&nbsp; There&#8217;s too much =
of an
either/or mentality for me to penetrate, so I&#8217;ll just leave this
be.&nbsp; Let me just say that I do not find students lazy.&nbsp; I =
think they
have been socialized into viewing education as a game, and when they see =
they
can get an &#8220;A&#8221; by not thinking critically&#8212;or when they =
hear
from their roommate how easy a certain class is&#8212;they will =
gravitate
toward the demands that are easier.&nbsp; I don&#8217;t think they =
actually
like it this way.&nbsp; It&#8217;s just that they have been trained to =
judge success
in education by the extrinsic reward of grades rather than the intrinsic =
reward
of knowledge.&nbsp; And, of course, much of the curriculum did not =
matter to
them in high school and was not made relevant, so who can blame them for =
doing
as little as possible?&nbsp; The view of students that I find =
condescending,
one propagated by Maxine Hairston years ago, among others, is that =
students
cannot handle the politics that come with writing, that somehow =
they&#8217;re
not ready.&nbsp; If we view students as wilting when faced with =
political
challenges, we obviously must consider them much too fragile to take on =
the
responsibilities of higher education.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Bill<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

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<hr size=3D2 width=3D"100%" align=3Dcenter tabindex=3D-1>

</span></font></div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><b><font size=3D2 face=3DTahoma><span =
style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;
font-family:Tahoma;font-weight:bold'>From:</span></font></b><font =
size=3D2
face=3DTahoma><span style=3D'font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Tahoma'>
teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com
[mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com] <b><span =
style=3D'font-weight:
bold'>On Behalf Of </span></b>Kathy Fitch<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Sent:</span></b> Tuesday, October =
03, 2006
5:10 PM<br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>To:</span></b> <st1:PersonName =
w:st=3D"on">teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com</st1:PersonName><br>
<b><span style=3D'font-weight:bold'>Subject:</span></b> RE:
[Teaching_Composition] Critical vs Radical</span></font><o:p></o:p></p>

</div>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D3 face=3D"Times New Roman"><span =
style=3D'font-size:
12.0pt'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

And yet, Bill, you chose an =
exceedingly
benign description of critical pedagogy the first time round, which I =
why I
raised the question.&nbsp; Teaching toward thinking and teaching what to =
think
are not, I think, the same. &nbsp;&nbsp;Questioning and examining =
relationships
to pets, say, is not the same as unraveling them to the point where
&#8220;exploitative&#8221; is the only correct way (or cast as the =
obviously
superior way, from the grade-wielding teacher&#8217;s perspective) to =
see the
thing.<o:p></o:p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

I&#8217;ve not met many students =
who truly
prefer to write boring essays&#8212;or boring anything.&nbsp; Students
don&#8217;t enjoy being bored.&nbsp; Perhaps, confronted with a teacher =
who
assumes that they can only write vapidly about pets&#8212;or
whatever&#8212;(joy, apparently, being vapid, though I&#8217;d argue =
that
it&#8217;s actually one of the more complicated states of mind to write =
about
well), boring seems the safest way out. &nbsp;&nbsp;Saying &nbsp;nothing =
much
at all leaves few openings for the teacher to attack one&#8217;s =
apparently
inferior mind.&nbsp; If students carefully master the art (it is one, =
for sure)
of saying nothing much of note at whatever length is required to fulfill =
the
assignment, why be shocked, under the circumstances?&nbsp; Seems a smart
solution to me.<o:p></o:p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>This =
bit<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

&lt;&lt;Probably my most important
response to Kathy&#8217;s last two posts is to counter her position =
about the
illegitimacy of having an ideological goal in mind that ideally would =
result in
change for students. &gt;&gt; <o:p></o:p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

Is not a countering but a =
reiteration of
my stance.&nbsp; Education results in change. &nbsp;Clearly, we share a =
hope
that it&#8217;s change for the better, or we wouldn&#8217;t =
bother.&nbsp;
Aiming for a *specific* =
change
(e.g. you can&#8217;t be one of those damned right-wing extremists =
anymore if
you&#8217;re a *real* =
thinker, or
vice-versa) is another thing.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>And =
this<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&lt;&lt;I would prefer instructors =
who might
get too pushy and force students to actually consider an alternative
perspective than an instructor who says, &#8220;Hands off&#8221; and =
helps a
student create an argument that claims, for example, the poor and =
homeless are
just lazy.&nbsp;&gt;&gt;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

so extraordinary that I&#8217;m not =
sure
where to start. I&#8217;ll just say that it seems to me that there is =
more than
one way to write well about poverty and homelessness.&nbsp; I could help =
a
student write an essay that took a conservative stance toward these =
things.&nbsp;
But, I don&#8217;t begin with the notion that this would entail =
constructing a
&#8220;they&#8217;re just lazy,&#8221; argument, anymore than I would =
begin
with the assumption that a more liberal take on things would amount to
&#8220;they&#8217;re just victims.&#8221;&nbsp; So, yes, I see a huge
difference indeed between questioning and examining and narrowly
unraveling.&nbsp; We question and examine to enrich and deepen our
understanding, whichever direction (there are many, bound to shift over =
our
lifetimes if questioning and examining get to be skills and then habits) =
they
might lead us in.&nbsp; Merely unraveling&#8212;just breaking some =
select set
of things&#8212;is something else.&nbsp; You seem to see an awful lot of =
such
things in students that you wish to break!<o:p></o:p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Maybe &#8220;raveling&#8221; is =
better
diction, since it contains both the notion of undoing and the notion of
creating.&nbsp; I&#8217;m after both, I suppose.&nbsp; Take the thing =
apart to
see how it&#8217;s put together, then make it (or something to take its =
place)
anew, with your new insight into its structure and function to enrich =
you.&nbsp;
To me, there&#8217;s joy in that, and joy in watching students learn how =
to do
it&#8212;seeing the sparks fly.&nbsp; <o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Your take on students&#8212;that =
they
prefer the easy way out, that they lean toward the simplistic, that
they&#8217;d tend toward a &#8220;they&#8217;re just lazy&#8221; take on =
the
world if we didn&#8217;t somehow disabuse them of such inferior views, =
or save
them from such simple ways&#8212;seems terribly bleak, and not a little
insulting.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>I love to write, so if I found =
myself in,
for instance, the spot of having to write the pets paper in the kind of
confrontational class you describe, I&#8217;d probably write the hell =
out of
the joy one, just to be a snot&#8212;maybe hand it in while the ink on =
drop
slip was still wet.&nbsp; But what of the students who come to us with =
less
confidence, less spirit, less writing skill, less willingness to tick =
off
teacher?&nbsp; &nbsp;Their unraveling is, to me, a heartrending =
thing.<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>Kathy<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></font></p>

<p class=3DMsoNormal><font size=3D2 color=3Dnavy face=3DArial><span =
style=3D'font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:navy'>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></font></p>

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