From teaching_composition-admin Thu Apr 6 16:06:52 2000 Received: from corp148mr.mcgraw-hill.com (corp148mr.mcgraw-hill.com [198.45.18.131]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA29998 for ; Thu, 6 Apr 2000 16:06:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200004062106.QAA29998@greenhouse.eppg.com> From: "Vaccaro, Todd" To: "'teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com'" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] This is just a test of the emergency teaching composition page Date: Thu, 6 Apr 2000 17:05:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----_=_NextPart_000_01BFA00B.D8EB89A4" This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. ------_=_NextPart_000_01BFA00B.D8EB89A4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" This is only a test, I repeat only a test, do not be afraid. Todd B. Vaccaro Media Technology Project Manager McGraw-Hill Higher Education Two Penn Plaza, 20th floor New York, NY 10121-2298 212-904-3551 (phone) 212-904-2280 (fax) todd_vaccaro@mcgraw-hill.com ____________________________________________ Please consider visiting: http://www.thehungersite.com By going to their web page and just clicking a button, their corporate sponsors make a donation, 100% of which goes directly to the United Nations World Food Program. According to the site, this has added up to over 200 metric tons of free food donated weekly with some recent totals over 1 million cups of staple grain a day. Consider making them the startup page for your browser or adding them to your favorites list so that each day when you log onto the internet you can easily contribute. 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From teaching_composition-admin Mon Apr 17 14:43:04 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA10043 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 14:43:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (webct126.webct.com [140.239.69.126]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id 2WFYP00Q; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:58:04 -0400 Message-ID: <00a001bfa8a5$3b095200$7e45ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: "teachingcomp" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] 1-Hello 2-4Cs 3-Michael Day Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:43:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_009D_01BFA883.B39C2480" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01BFA883.B39C2480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everyone who has been on the teachingcomp list. You've now been = moved to this new address: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com So, please change your address book so you have this new email address. = The list is now running off a McGraw-Hill server, appropriate since this = is a McGraw-Hill project. At the 4Cs last week, a number of new people signed up for this list, so = our numbers should double this week as soon as the new names are added. You'll notice I new work for WebCT (as I told the list last week). = WebCT has agreed to help McGraw-Hill support this important project. Michael Day starts his two-week time with us this week. You can find = his materials at: www.engl.niu.edu/tcomp Michael is joined by Matt Duncan, Aimee Hall, Eric Hoffman, and Meredith = Larson at Northern Illinois University. I look forward to the discussion about teaching in a networked = classroom. Trent _________________ Trent Batson, Ph.D., Consultant WebCT Two Corporation Way Peabody, MA 01960 978-538-0036 401-225-5009 (cell) 978-538-0309 (fax) www.webct.com ------=_NextPart_000_009D_01BFA883.B39C2480 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello everyone who has been on the = teachingcomp=20 list.  You've now been moved to this new address:
 
 
So, please change your address book so = you have=20 this new email address.  The list is now running off a McGraw-Hill = server,=20 appropriate since this is a McGraw-Hill project.
 
At the 4Cs last week, a number of new = people signed=20 up for this list, so our numbers should double this week as soon as the = new=20 names are added.
 
You'll notice I new work for WebCT (as = I told the=20 list last week).  WebCT has agreed to help McGraw-Hill support this = important project.
 
Michael Day starts his two-week time = with us this=20 week.  You can find his materials at:
 
www.engl.niu.edu/tcomp<= /DIV>
 
Michael is joined by Matt Duncan, Aimee = Hall, Eric=20 Hoffman, and Meredith Larson at Northern Illinois = University.
 
I look forward to the discussion about = teaching in=20 a networked classroom.
 
Trent
_________________
Trent Batson, = Ph.D.,
Consultant
WebCT
Two=20 Corporation Way
Peabody, MA 01960
 
978-538-0036
401-225-5009 = (cell)
978-538-0309=20 (fax)
www.webct.com
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_009D_01BFA883.B39C2480-- From teaching_composition-admin Mon Apr 17 17:35:27 2000 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (tb0mxd1@corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA13979 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:35:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from tb0mxd1@localhost) by corn.cso.niu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA00618; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:35:25 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:35:25 -0500 (CDT) From: day michael Message-Id: <200004172235.RAA00618@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: Trent.Batson@webct.com, teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] 1-Hello 2-4Cs 3-Michael Day Hello all, and thanks to Trent for the nice introduction! It was nice to see so many of you at CCCC last week; I am back, but pretty exhausted to say the least. Speaking of our topic for this next period of two weeks, I had a lab day for both classes today, and tried something I had not done yet. I had the students copy the paragraph or two of their papers that they found most in need of revision into MS Word and use the "Track Changes" feature to create a revision on which one could see both the old and new versions. They really had fun with this exercise, and my class of HS English teachers in training thought that they would want to use it with their future classes. I am indebted to Susan Lang for teaching me how to use yet another of those bells and whistles on Word I never had time to learn. Hopefully you have had time to glance at our web site, http://www.engl.niu.edu/tcomp so that you are familiar with a sampling of the guiding principles we follow and approaches we take here at NIU. With these principles and approaches in mind, we invite you to ask questions about any of them, ask questions relating to your own needs and experiences with networked writing classrooms, or address the topic in any way you see fit. To open up the field and hopefully get us going, let me set out a few issues we might discuss: *My supervisor requires me to teach in a computer classroom; what should I do? *I'd like to take my class to a computer classroom, but our composition program does not have one. What should I do? *I teach in a computer classroom, and my colleagues think I am wasting my students' time. How should I explain what we do to them? *My students participate in face-to-face discussion, but I can't get them to discuss at any length with much conviction on line. What should I do? *The server crashed and the machines are all useless. My fifty minutes of precious time are evaporating. Now what? *Publishers of are asking me to adopt their writing/courseware package for my class. How should I decide what to use? *Besides this list, where can I look for help and advice? You get the drift… Now, don't feel as if you have to post at any great length or with any formality; this is a working discussion and we're all too busy to write long fancy posts. Jump on in! Michael Michael J. Day Assistant Professor English Department Northern Illinois University DeKalb, Illinois 60115 (815) 753-6605 mday@niu.edu http://www.niu.edu/~tb0mxd1 From teaching_composition-admin Mon Apr 17 17:50:27 2000 Received: from mailhub.iastate.edu (mailhub.iastate.edu [129.186.1.102]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA14125 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:50:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from portal (quartz.truserve.com [208.142.209.50]) by mailhub.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA32209 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:50:24 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000417174724.00997da0@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu> X-Sender: ewardle@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 17:50:30 -0500 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com From: Elizabeth A Wardle Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] 1-Hello 2-4Cs 3-Michael Day In-Reply-To: <200004172235.RAA00618@corn.cso.niu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by greenhouse.eppg.com id RAA14126 Or how about this alternate question: I am forced to teach in a computer lab and I think I am wasting my students' time. I have not been able to create the sense of community I did in a conventional classroom and I have not noticed any of the benefits that so much of the research on computers and composition suggests. Besides totally bailing and demanding a conventional classroom next time, what should I do? Elizabeth At 05:35 PM 4/17/00 -0500, you wrote: >real_name > >Hello all, and thanks to Trent for the nice introduction! > >It was nice to see so many of you at CCCC last week; I am back, >but pretty exhausted to say the least. Speaking of our topic for this >next period of two weeks, I had a lab day for both classes today, >and tried something I had not done yet. I had the students copy the >paragraph or two of their papers that they found most in need of >revision into MS Word and use the "Track Changes" feature to >create a revision on which one could see both the old and new >versions. They really had fun with this exercise, and my class of >HS English teachers in training thought that they would want to >use it with their future classes. I am indebted to Susan Lang for >teaching me how to use yet another of those bells and whistles on >Word I never had time to learn. > >Hopefully you have had time to glance at our web site, >http://www.engl.niu.edu/tcomp so that you are familiar with a >sampling of the guiding principles we follow and approaches we >take here at NIU. With these principles and approaches in mind, >we invite you to ask questions about any of them, ask questions >relating to your own needs and experiences with networked writing >classrooms, or address the topic in any way you see fit. > >To open up the field and hopefully get us going, let me set out a >few issues we might discuss: > >*My supervisor requires me to teach in a computer classroom; what >should I do? > >*I'd like to take my class to a computer classroom, but our >composition program does not have one. What should I do? > >*I teach in a computer classroom, and my colleagues think I am >wasting my students' time. How should I explain what we do to >them? > >*My students participate in face-to-face discussion, but I can't get >them to discuss at any length with much conviction on line. What >should I do? > >*The server crashed and the machines are all useless. My fifty >minutes of precious time are evaporating. Now what? > >*Publishers of are asking me to adopt >their writing/courseware package for my class. How should I >decide what to use? > >*Besides this list, where can I look for help and advice? > >You get the drift… Now, don't feel as if you have to post at any >great length or with any formality; this is a working discussion and >we're all too busy to write long fancy posts. > >Jump on in! > >Michael > >Michael J. Day >Assistant Professor >English Department >Northern Illinois University >DeKalb, Illinois 60115 >(815) 753-6605 >mday@niu.edu >http://www.niu.edu/~tb0mxd1 > >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition ------------------------------ Elizabeth A. Wardle Doctoral Program in Rhetoric & Professional Communication Iowa State University of Science & Technology http://www.stuorg.iastate.edu/phorum/ www.public.iastate.edu/~ewardle "What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." --Adolf Hitler From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 18 08:38:54 2000 Received: from vega.brown.edu (vega.services.brown.edu [128.148.19.202]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA04788 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:38:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [128.148.145.66] ([128.148.145.66]) by vega.brown.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08915 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:38:53 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: Christopher_Amirault@postoffice.brown.edu (Unverified) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:39:29 -0500 To: "teachingcomp" From: Chris Amirault Subject: [Teaching_Composition] What Evidence Shows Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi Folks, First time poster here with a basic question. In Michael Day's introduction, he writes, "Evidence may not show that using computers makes students write better, but it does show that using networked computers helps students write more, helps them want to write, invent and especially revise, and creates an ideal environment for collaboration and discussion of issues that lead to writing projects." I've worked with computers and writing for a while and taught in a rudimentarily networked classroom for intro comp back in 1991; as I result, I don't need convincin'. However, I work in an education department that has been loathe to discuss educational technology, and this claim would make such discussions easier and more persuasive. Specifically, I would love to know where that evidence is that shows these claims are indeed true. Chris Chris Amirault Director, Institute for Elementary and Secondary Education http://www.brown.edu/Departments/IESE/institute.html Adj Asst Prof, Departments of Education and Modern Culture and Media Brown University Box 1938 Providence RI 02912 401.863.9227 (voice) 1276 (fax) From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 18 08:54:38 2000 Received: from iris.iupui.edu (iris.iupui.edu [134.68.220.32]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA04949 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:54:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from garnet.iupui.edu (tbrown1@garnet.iupui.edu [134.68.220.39]) by iris.iupui.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.2IUPUIPO) with SMTP id IAA17822; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:54:31 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 08:54:02 -0500 (EST) From: Tom Brown To: day michael cc: Trent.Batson@webct.com, teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] 1-Hello 2-4Cs 3-Michael Day In-Reply-To: <200004172235.RAA00618@corn.cso.niu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Can you explain a bit more about the "Track Changes" and how one activates such a feature? From teaching_composition-admin Mon Apr 17 15:29:52 2000 Received: from vega.brown.edu (vega.services.brown.edu [128.148.19.202]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA11505 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 15:29:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [128.148.145.66] ([128.148.145.66]) by vega.brown.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA28266 for ; Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:29:50 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: Christopher_Amirault@postoffice.brown.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <00a001bfa8a5$3b095200$7e45ef8c@ULT> References: <00a001bfa8a5$3b095200$7e45ef8c@ULT> Date: Mon, 17 Apr 2000 16:32:08 -0500 To: "teachingcomp" From: Chris Amirault Subject: [Teaching_Composition] What Evidence Shows Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Hi Folks, First time poster here with a basic question. In Michael Day's introduction, he writes, "Evidence may not show that using computers makes students write better, but it does show that using networked computers helps students write more, helps them want to write, invent and especially revise, and creates an ideal environment for collaboration and discussion of issues that lead to writing projects." I've worked with computers and writing for a while and taught in a rudimentarily networked classroom for intro comp back in 1991; as I result, I don't need convincin'. However, I work in an education department that has been loathe to discuss educational technology, and this claim would make such discussions easier and more persuasive. Specifically, I would love to know where that evidence is that shows these claims are indeed true. Chris Chris Amirault Director, Institute for Elementary and Secondary Education http://www.brown.edu/Departments/IESE/institute.html Adj Asst Prof, Departments of Education and Modern Culture and Media Brown University Box 1938 Providence RI 02912 401.863.9227 (voice) 1276 (fax) From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 18 09:18:52 2000 Received: from mercury.its.umd.umich.edu (mercury.its.umd.umich.edu [141.215.69.17]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA06015 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 09:18:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from umich.edu (pc153.ca.umd.umich.edu [141.215.48.153]) by mercury.its.umd.umich.edu (Netscape Messaging Server 3.6) with ESMTP id AAA6ABE for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:18:00 -0400 Message-ID: <38FC6E7C.174E4A93@umich.edu> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:17:33 -0400 From: Linda Adler-Kassner X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.6 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] evidence Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chris: An essay by Mike Palmquist, Kate Kiefer, and one other Colorado State person (can't remember the third author) provides just the kind of evidence you ask for. It's in a book called _Attending to the Margins_ edited by Michelle Hall Kells and Valerie Balester (pub. by Heinemann/Boynton Cook last year). The essay provides lots of _great_ evidence that writing in computerized environments do help students to become stronger writers. -Linda From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 18 10:10:10 2000 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (tb0mxd1@corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07194 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:10:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from tb0mxd1@localhost) by corn.cso.niu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA06225; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:10:02 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:10:02 -0500 (CDT) From: day michael Message-Id: <200004181510.KAA06225@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: ewardle@iastate.edu, teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] 1-Hello 2-4Cs 3-Michael Day Elizabeth, Some questions: When you say you are required to teach in a computer classroom, do you mean that every class is scheduled in the computer classroom? If so, does the classroom have wheeled chairs and an area with a table where students can move for face-to-face interaction? If not, can they at least see each other when they are not working on the computers? Another question: at Iowa state, do you have a departmental computer support staff person to help comp teachers with strategies for using the computer classroom? If not, do you know of other teachers who seem to using the environment with more success? I'm thinking that the most effective composition classes I've seen, aside from those that have to be online because the class members can't come to campus, are those that balance time writing and interacting on the computers with face-to-face discussion and group work. Ideally, if the only classroom you have is a computer classroom, there should be some way to get students away from the computers from time to time. The best classrooms I have seen have a big table or tables with no computers in one area, and students can just roll over to the tables to work face-to-face. And my other question focuses on the issue of support. You should have someone in your composition program who can help you come up with activities and strategies to use the computers and the classroom effectively. If not, members of your composition program may want to bring the issue to the supervisor. Yet I vividly remember 7 years of not having any composition-specific support when I was teaching in South Dakota. I had to get ideas and advice from Internet discussion lists such as this one. ACW-L was a lifesaver for me, because when I felt most puzzled about what to do, why and how, I could ask for help from others who were working with composition classes in a computer classroom. So Elizabeth, thank you for your honest question, and I hope you can provide us with more information. How would others respond to Elizabeth's question? Michael From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 18 10:28:59 2000 Received: from mailhub.iastate.edu (mailhub.iastate.edu [129.186.1.102]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07365 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:28:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from portal (aoba.truserve.com [208.142.211.150]) by mailhub.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA16389 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:28:55 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000418101623.009b8650@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu> X-Sender: ewardle@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:28:59 -0500 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com From: Elizabeth A Wardle Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Computer classrooms In-Reply-To: <200004181510.KAA06225@corn.cso.niu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Unfortunately, at Iowa State, the technology far preceded the theory--and people in the comp program are aware of that. Almost all sections are taught in the computer classrooms--most in the dorms. Many are taught intensively there (every day), some are taught just once a week in the computer classrooms. But, all the computer classrooms are just set up like computer labs. No tables, no way to see each other, poles in the middle, etc. I have gotten an intensive classroom 2 semesters in a row. We are supposed to have a computer monitor to help students use the computers. This semester there weren't enough to go around, so I did not get one. That is one reason things have gone so badly. 20 minutes of each 50 class seemed to be spent explaining the computers again, fixing problems. Aargh. There is a person in charge of the computer classrooms and he has been very nice. But he doesn't so much give us ideas for using the technology as simply take care of details, make sure things work, etc. Last semester the experience was so-so b/c all my students were very computer literate and active, despite the horrible set-up. This semester was a huge disaster b/c students simply could not figure out what they were supposed to be doing and would not pay attention to me or each other if there was a computer screen in front of them. Finally I just said "forget it" and moved the class to a conference room down the hall. Things have been good since then. I really believe students were so resistant to the technology that they just wouldn't/couldn't learn what they needed to. One of my colleagues has had even worse experiences than I have. Mine have just been inconvenient; hers have been threatening. The software we use allows students to put anonymous texts in our "drop box." One of her students wrote a nasty letter telling her she was an idiot, couldn't teach, etc etc and dropped in it there--simply because he could, because it was anonymous. The reason for the ill will, she is certain, is that she had no idea what she was doing in that classroom. She had no training before being put there and spent the first several weeks of class just trying to figure out what was going on. Thus, she didn't have the ethos, the authority, she really needed as a young, female TA at a school of science and technology. (That's another story, for another time). Anyway, I think the problems both of us have had stem from badly designed classrooms and too little training and sharing about activities for these classrooms. Moving to a computer classroom shouldn't just be sudden; I really belive that in order for it to be useful, you must be trained in both theory and activities--prepared for what you will find. I just wanted to make sure I said that so I don't sound like a total scrooge! :) Elizabeth At 10:10 AM 4/18/00 -0500, you wrote: >Elizabeth, > >Some questions: > >When you say you are required to teach in a computer classroom, >do you mean that every class is scheduled in the computer classroom? >If so, does the classroom have wheeled chairs and an area with a >table where students can move for face-to-face interaction? If >not, can they at least see each other when they are not working on >the computers? > >Another question: at Iowa state, do you have a departmental >computer support staff person to help comp teachers with >strategies for using the computer classroom? If not, do >you know of other teachers who seem to using the environment >with more success? > >I'm thinking that the most effective composition classes I've >seen, aside from those that have to be online because the >class members can't come to campus, are those that balance >time writing and interacting on the computers with face-to-face >discussion and group work. Ideally, if the only classroom you >have is a computer classroom, there should be some way to get >students away from the computers from time to time. The best >classrooms I have seen have a big table or tables with no >computers in one area, and students can just roll over to the >tables to work face-to-face. > >And my other question focuses on the issue of support. You >should have someone in your composition program who can help >you come up with activities and strategies to use the computers >and the classroom effectively. If not, members of your composition >program may want to bring the issue to the supervisor. Yet I >vividly remember 7 years of not having any composition-specific >support when I was teaching in South Dakota. I had to get >ideas and advice from Internet discussion lists such as this >one. ACW-L was a lifesaver for me, because when I felt most >puzzled about what to do, why and how, I could ask for help >from others who were working with composition classes in a >computer classroom. > >So Elizabeth, thank you for your honest question, and I hope >you can provide us with more information. How would others >respond to Elizabeth's question? > >Michael ------------------------------ Elizabeth A. Wardle Doctoral Program in Rhetoric & Professional Communication Iowa State University of Science & Technology http://www.stuorg.iastate.edu/phorum/ www.public.iastate.edu/~ewardle "What good fortune for those in power that people do not think." --Adolf Hitler From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 18 10:32:38 2000 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (tb0mxd1@corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07438 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:32:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from tb0mxd1@localhost) by corn.cso.niu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA08195; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:32:20 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:32:20 -0500 (CDT) From: day michael Message-Id: <200004181532.KAA08195@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: tbrown1@iupui.edu Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] 1-Hello 2-4Cs 3-Michael Day Cc: Trent.Batson@webct.com, teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Hi Tom! I'd be glad to explain more about Track Changes in MS Word. From the Tools menu, select Track Changes and then Highlight Changes. If you want to see the changes tracked in color while editing, select Track Changes While Editing. This can be annoying, so many people elect to turn this off. However, I don't seem to be able to get it to print the changes without it on. You can then later use the Accept Changes or Reject Changes options to incorporate the changes or not. One interesting exercise focusing on editing might be to project a student's document which has been edited in this fashion, and have the class help decide whether to reject or accept each change. I hope this helps, Michael From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 18 10:54:37 2000 Received: from oats.farm.niu.edu (root@oats.farm.niu.edu [131.156.99.3]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07632 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:54:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from niu.edu ([131.156.77.223]) by oats.farm.niu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26143 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:54:35 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <38FC854C.9E885BB@niu.edu> Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 10:54:52 -0500 From: z976883 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Computer classrooms References: <4.2.0.58.20000418101623.009b8650@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elizabeth, No wonder you are having problems creating a sense of community in a computer lab. Bad floor plans, resistant students, and constant lab use sure would seem problematic. I have had to use one computer lab where at least half the students had their backs to me, and I found it difficult to teach and to direct. The best way I have found to guide students is to first use an overhead LCD unit, where the students can watch me navigate the web or use features in Word. We discuss as we normally would, and the students interact well. Then, they use their own computers, attempting to recreate what they just saw. Granted, having the technological resources helps, but using students as a resource helps, too. There will always be at least one student who either comes in knowing something about something (maybe even more than the teacher!) or who picks up the concepts fast. By encouraging students to assist one another and to look on to someone else's computer, we not only create virtual teaching assistance but also empower students to feel technologically competent. My suggestions to you are this: (1) Teach wherever you are most comfortable. Students will reflect and amplify your frustration. (2) If you are in a lab that seem to inhibit communication, try pairing students on computers, or have them move around. For example, have them each free write on one computer then move to their neighbors, read what s/he wrote, comment (or add on if you're doing creative writing), and move to the next computer. This lets them see what others are doing, respond to one another, and stretch a bit. If you have on-line discussion rooms or web board, you can use this function as well. I have paired up students, had them brainstorm on topic, post their ideas, then respond to other groups. This seems to help. (3) Don't let the technology overshadow the purpose of the class. At the same time, remind your students that being familiar with computers and the internet will be necessary in the "real" world. --Others probably have more ideas and maybe better ones, but I hope this helps.--- I don't know how you direct your classes in the lab, but I have found that I actually do more work and more talking there than in a traditional classroom. I introduce something, have directions in writing (either on a board or on the web), tell them to begin and to help one another, and then, walk around talking to students as they work through the assignment and answering questions. Lab days can be fun; they can also be frustrating. Regardless, students seem to like it when you admit that something is frustrating you and you change gears. It reminds them that nothing and no one is perfect, even--yes, it's true--their composition teacher. If coping disaster doesn't build character and community, I don't know what will. Meredith Larson Northern Illinois University From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 18 11:21:49 2000 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (tb0mxd1@corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08667 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:21:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from tb0mxd1@localhost) by corn.cso.niu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id LAA12974; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:21:48 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:21:48 -0500 (CDT) From: day michael Message-Id: <200004181621.LAA12974@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: Christopher_Amirault@brown.edu, teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] What Evidence Shows Thanks for an important question about evidence, Chris, and thanks to Linda for bringing up the article by Palmquist et al. Here are just a few more sources that help provide evidence: Bump, Jerome. "Radical Changes in Class Discussion Using Networked Computers." Computers and the Humanities, 24 (1990), 49-65. Day, Michael, and Trent Batson. "The Network-Based Writing Classroom: The ENFI Idea." In Marie Collins and Zane Berge, eds. Computer Mediated Communication and the Online Classroom, Volume Two: Higher Education. (Hampton Press, 1995) 25-46. Selfe, Cynthia, and Marilyn Cooper. "Computer Conferences and Learning: Authority, Resistance, and Internally Persuasive Discourse." College English, 52 (1990), 847-869. Sirc, Geoff and Tom Reynolds. "The Face of Collaboration in the Networked Writing Classroom." Computers and Composition, 7 (1990), 53-70. Slatin, John. "Is There a Class in this Text? Creating Knowledge in the Electronic Classroom." In Edward Barrett, ed. Sociomedia: Multimedia, Hypermedia, and the Social Construction of Knowledge. (MIT Press, 1992) 27-51. Most of these cites came from the works cited lists at the end of the chapters in: Harrington, Susanmarie, Rebecca Rickly, and Michael Day. The Online Writing Classroom. (Hampton Press, 2000). I hope these resources help. Michael From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 18 11:43:02 2000 Received: from jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.87]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08867 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:43:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.5]) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #37929) with ESMTP id <01JODQY6CW5AFYELAP@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:41:23 EDT Received: from 128 ([128.220.149.157]) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id MAA47708 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:41:34 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:34:21 -0400 From: Ben Reynolds Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Off Topic Question About list format In-reply-to: <4.2.0.58.20000418101623.009b8650@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu> X-Sender: ewt2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Message-id: <3.0.5.32.20000418123421.008af780@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <200004181510.KAA06225@corn.cso.niu.edu> Sorry, but I can't stand not knowing. What is with this "real_name" biz? At 10:28 AM 04/18/2000 -0500, Elizabeth A Wardle wrote: >real_name >Unfortunately, at Iowa State, the technology far preceded the theory--and >people in the comp program are aware of that. Almost all sections are ...[snip] Ben.Reynolds@jhu.edu Voice: 410-516-0161 Coordinator, Center for Distance Education FAX: 410-516-0587 Center for Talented Youth The Johns Hopkins University http://www.jhu.edu/gifted/cde 3400 N. Charles ST, Baltimore, MD USA 21218 From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 18 11:17:22 2000 Received: from nova.bsuvc.bsu.edu (NOVA.BSUVC.BSU.EDU [147.226.56.70]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA08604 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:17:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from BSUVC.bsu.edu by BSUVC.bsu.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #35953) id <01JODO0VF5MO9S3YA8@BSUVC.bsu.edu> for teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:17:08 EST Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 11:17:08 -0500 (EST) From: rarice@bsuvc.bsu.edu Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] 1-Hello 2-4Cs 3-Michael Day In-reply-to: <200004181532.KAA08195@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: day michael Cc: tbrown1@iupui.edu, Trent.Batson@webct.com, teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Tom, et al: I've been using the track changes tool in conjunction with an open-revision policy. That is, students can offer as many revisions as they want until the last day of the semester. I usually track changes with their previous draft and then add my feedback using Insert-->Comment. I often write a holistic note at the beginning of the paper, too, changing colors to offset. Works well. I can then store all drafts and all comments on all drafts. My students, when peer-responding, do not use track changes but they do use the comment feature and holistic response/color changing. .Rich Rice. Ball State _______________________________________________________________________________ --> Practicing 'Dis'course or 'Das'course <-- On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, day michael wrote: > real_name > Hi Tom! > I'd be glad to explain more about Track Changes in MS Word. > From the Tools menu, select Track Changes and then Highlight > Changes. If you want to see the changes tracked in color while > editing, select Track Changes While Editing. This can be annoying, > so many people elect to turn this off. However, I don't seem to be > able to get it to print the changes without it on. You can then > later use the Accept Changes or Reject Changes options to incorporate > the changes or not. One interesting exercise focusing on editing > might be to project a student's document which has been edited > in this fashion, and have the class help decide whether to reject > or accept each change. > > I hope this helps, > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 18 14:33:20 2000 Received: from mail.rdc1.ct.home.com (imail@ha1.rdc1.ct.home.com [24.2.0.66]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12530 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 14:33:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cx623280-a.brown.edu ([24.4.181.217]) by mail.rdc1.ct.home.com (InterMail vM.4.01.02.00 201-229-116) with ESMTP id <20000418193318.ECBE26343.mail.rdc1.ct.home.com@cx623280-a.brown.edu> for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 12:33:18 -0700 Message-Id: <4.3.1.2.20000418152354.00b50d30@postoffice.brown.edu> X-Sender: Judy_Williamson@postoffice.brown.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 15:31:27 -0400 To: "teachingcomp" From: Judy Williamson Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] What Evidence Shows In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="=====================_5951090==_.ALT" --=====================_5951090==_.ALT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Chris, Go to the Milken Exchange site -- http://www.mff.org/. Click on "Publications Request" or something like that. Look for this: The Impact of Education Technology on Student Achievement: What the Most Current Research Has to Say By John Schacter. This briefing outlines what current research has found about the impact of educational technology on learning and identifies resources for further study. Though this research is in its infancy, we are beginning to see solid work emerge. This report looks at some of the large-scale state and national studies as well as some innovative smaller studies that provide visions for new uses of technology in learning and instruction. The report is also available for download in PDF format. While the findings are for K12, they present a meta-analysis of over 500 studies that look at the effectiveness of technology and could have implications for post-secondary. I think some of the report reads like smoke and mirrors, but it's interesting. Judy At 10:39 AM 4/18/2000, Chris Amirault wrote: >I've worked with computers and writing for a while and taught in a >rudimentarily networked classroom for intro comp back in 1991; as I >result, I don't need convincin'. However, I work in an education >department that has been loathe to discuss educational technology, and >this claim would make such discussions easier and more persuasive. >Specifically, I would love to know where that evidence is that shows these >claims are indeed true. > >Chris --=====================_5951090==_.ALT Content-Type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" Chris,

Go to the Milken Exchange site -- http://www.mff.org/.  Click on "Publications Request" or something like that.  Look for this:

The Impact of Education Technology on Student Achievement: What the Most Current Research Has to Say
By John Schacter. This briefing outlines what current research has found about the impact of educational technology on learning and identifies resources for further study. Though this research is in its infancy, we are beginning to see solid work emerge. This report looks at some of the large-scale state and national studies as well as some innovative smaller studies that provide visions for new uses of technology in learning and instruction. The report is also available for download in PDF format.

While the findings are for K12, they present a meta-analysis of over 500 studies that look at the effectiveness of technology and could have implications for post-secondary.  I think some of the report reads like smoke and mirrors, but it's interesting. 

Judy

At 10:39 AM 4/18/2000, Chris Amirault wrote:
I've worked with computers and writing for a while and taught in a rudimentarily networked classroom for intro comp back in 1991; as I result, I don't need convincin'. However, I work in an education department that has been loathe to discuss educational technology, and this claim would make such discussions easier and more persuasive. Specifically, I would love to know where that evidence is that shows these claims are indeed true.

Chris
--=====================_5951090==_.ALT-- From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 18 20:52:24 2000 Received: from mantaray.intercom.net (mantaray.intercom.net [208.236.173.250]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA19864 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 20:52:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from drallie (s833.intercom.net [208.236.174.125]) by mantaray.intercom.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id VAA11625 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:51:49 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.20000418214227.00ab5ba0@pop3.intercom.net> X-Sender: drallie@pop3.intercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:54:59 -0400 To: Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com From: "Allison S. Bartlett, PhD" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] [Teaching _Composition] A Practical Question In-Reply-To: <200004181621.LAA12974@corn.cso.niu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi, folks: (I apparently sent this to the wrong address. . .I've no idea where it ended up. . .so I copied my copy, revised it, and am resending. I hope the first version doesn't show up. . .) Anyway: I've a question for those more experienced than I. What do you do when students arrive without the prerequisite assignment? What do you do with those unable to contribute to the peer evaluation or editing or commenting? Or even a less elaborate assignment in an networked classroom? What if you assign a paragraph as the basis for small group collaboration, expecting the students will each arrive with one, and they don't? Where do you put those students? How do you handle "networking" when some of them don't have the basis for the collaborative activity? What if you've already assigned groups? (A question posed by someone who's been extremely frustrated with this situation. . .who has attempted several [all unsatisfactory] resolutions of the problem of what to do with those students who are unprepared while others are working [seamlessly, of course] through the lesson plan. . .but who then worries about those who haven't worked through that lesson plan because they missed it. . . ..) Allison Wor-Wic Community College From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 18 21:20:32 2000 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (tb0mxd1@corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA20873 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:20:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from tb0mxd1@localhost) by corn.cso.niu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA27879; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:20:30 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 21:20:30 -0500 (CDT) From: day michael Message-Id: <200004190220.VAA27879@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com, drallie@shore.intercom.net Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] [Teaching _Composition] A Practical Question Allison, I'll bet others have far more productive and imaginative answers to your questions, but let me take a stab. When students arrive in class unprepared, some teachers will send them away with a 0 for class participation, still others will let them stay and still give them a 0. Me, I refuse to let it ruffle my feathers. Although it's clear that there are penalties for not being prepared, I generally expect that a student or two will come in unprepared. While I don't like this, the teacherly part of me says that I prefer that the student came rather than be absent. So, as part of my plan B, plan C, and plan D (and so on) of possible routes the class could take depending upon who shows up and how successful I feel we are, I will generally have a plan for those who show up unprepared. If we are peer reviewing and they don't have a draft, they work on creating a draft or developing a topic. Or I might have a small group of students who are not prepared brainstorming online together on a totally different topic, which could become a paper topic. One thing I've learned about any writing class, even one composed of people who are "prepared" for the day, is that many have different needs, different ways of knowing, learning, inventing, drafting, collecting information, revising, etc. When something isn't working, even just for one student, in a lab or workshop setting, I don't hesitate to help them find an alternate activity that will help the student meet the same general class goals. The key to freedom to me was figuring out that students didn't all have to be doing the same thing at the same time, and conspiring with them to find other ways to inspire them and help them write. Does this make any sense? If anyone else is listening, chime in and help me here. Michael From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 18 22:05:40 2000 Received: from nova.bsuvc.bsu.edu (NOVA.BSUVC.BSU.EDU [147.226.56.70]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA21467 for ; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:05:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from BSUVC.bsu.edu by BSUVC.bsu.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #35953) id <01JOEANP2TIO9S41SW@BSUVC.bsu.edu> for Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com; Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:05:28 EST Date: Tue, 18 Apr 2000 22:05:28 -0500 (EST) From: rarice@bsuvc.bsu.edu Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] [Teaching _Composition] A Practical Question In-reply-to: <200004190220.VAA27879@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: day michael Cc: Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com, drallie@shore.intercom.net Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Allison and Michael: I'm listening. ;-) I think Michael--as usual--has hit the nail on the head here. Teaching in general, and teaching with computer-mediated tools specifically, requires multiple plans *AND* an ability for teachers to embrace chaos. Creating flexible environments which allow students to go into directions they're most interested in is that "teachable moment" in its most pure state. One thing that I like to do in my classes is seek out what students already know (in the beginning of the semester) on a given subject. I give them readings and encourage students to relate *THEIR* experience to the text. Then, the rest of the class is connecting the unknown to the known. If students do not come with assignments for the day, etc., if they're "underprepared" for something in particular, I have them capitalize on what they are prepared for. That is, creating assignments and environments which enable students to connect the unknown to whatever known they have at the moment, is key. Easier said then done, of course. .Rich Rice. _______________________________________________________________________________ --> Practicing 'Dis'course or 'Das'course <-- On Tue, 18 Apr 2000, day michael wrote: > real_name > Allison, I'll bet others have far more productive and imaginative > answers to your questions, but let me take a stab. > > When students arrive in class unprepared, some teachers will send > them away with a 0 for class participation, still others will let > them stay and still give them a 0. > > Me, I refuse to let it ruffle my feathers. Although it's clear that > there are penalties for not being prepared, I generally expect that > a student or two will come in unprepared. While I don't like this, > the teacherly part of me says that I prefer that the student came > rather than be absent. > > So, as part of my plan B, plan C, and plan D (and so on) of possible > routes the class could take depending upon who shows up and how > successful I feel we are, I will generally have a plan for those > who show up unprepared. If we are peer reviewing and they don't > have a draft, they work on creating a draft or developing a topic. > Or I might have a small group of students who are not prepared > brainstorming online together on a totally different topic, which > could become a paper topic. > > One thing I've learned about any writing class, even one composed > of people who are "prepared" for the day, is that many have > different needs, different ways of knowing, learning, inventing, > drafting, collecting information, revising, etc. When something > isn't working, even just for one student, in a lab or workshop > setting, I don't hesitate to help them find an alternate activity > that will help the student meet the same general class goals. > > The key to freedom to me was figuring out that students didn't > all have to be doing the same thing at the same time, and conspiring > with them to find other ways to inspire them and help them write. > > Does this make any sense? If anyone else is listening, chime in > and help me here. > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > From teaching_composition-admin Wed Apr 19 10:59:09 2000 Received: from vega.brown.edu (vega.services.brown.edu [128.148.19.202]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09776 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 10:59:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [128.148.145.66] ([128.148.145.66]) by vega.brown.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA16835 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:59:09 -0400 (EDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: Christopher_Amirault@postoffice.brown.edu Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <4.1.20000418214227.00ab5ba0@pop3.intercom.net> References: <4.1.20000418214227.00ab5ba0@pop3.intercom.net> Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 11:59:44 -0500 To: Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com From: Chris Amirault Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] [Teaching _Composition] A Practical Question Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" Alison asked, >Anyway: I've a question for those more experienced than I. What do you do >when students arrive without the prerequisite assignment? To add to the good suggestions that precede my msg, I try to treat this as a logistical problem for teacher and student both. Many students just aren't good at setting priorities or making decisions about their workload, so I try to think of this as a teachable moment. Being a fan of the game Monopoly, I have become quite enamored of my equivalent of a "Get Out of Jail Free" card, which I call a weekly pass or something. At the start of a course I explain that I understand that life -- other courses, work, family -- often makes it impossible to be completely prepared for class sometimes, and that, on those days, they can use one of their three weekly passes, which gives them one week to do the requisite work. Students appreciate it bc it is a good-faith method to build in flexibility without giving away the store, and I like it bc it makes them responsible for their own lack of preparedness. Seems to work -- and if someone has used all three by week four, you know who needs some serious attention to these matters. Chris Amirault From teaching_composition-admin Wed Apr 19 17:49:42 2000 Received: from beach.silcom.com (beach.silcom.com [199.201.128.19]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA18143 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 17:49:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from www (pm5-36.sba1.avtel.net [207.71.222.36]) by beach.silcom.com (Postfix) with SMTP id DB2471457E3 for ; Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:48:02 -0700 (PDT) From: "Chris Johnston" To: Subject: [Teaching_Composition] track changes, insert-->comment Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2000 15:47:58 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MIMEOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal ^^^^^^^^^not my real_name ;-) I accidently sent this message only to Rich, but thought the rest of the list might want to see it/comment on it. ------- Rich, I'm intrigued by your use of track changes and Insert-->Comment features in MS Word. I have a couple of practical questions: how do students submit these drafts? Disks, LAN folders, over the web? One thing I try to avoid is reliance on any one particular type of software, but this makes good use of the MS bells & whistles, which, arguably, is ubiquitous enough to rely on. But do you find software conflicts to be much of a problem? I know you're interested in electronic portfolios (a concept I don't fully understand, at least not your application of them), and perhaps this drafting/revising process is all related to your use of e-portfolios? Would you mind divulging a bit of your method? Thanks, Chris Johnston ---- Chris J. Johnston Language, Literacy, and Composition Studies Graduate School of Education University of California--Santa Barbara chrisj@education.ucsb.edu From teaching_composition-admin Thu Apr 20 10:48:02 2000 Received: from jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu (jhuml2.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.87]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA11363 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 10:47:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu [128.220.2.5]) by jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu (PMDF V5.2-31 #37929) with ESMTP id <01JOGHN4OIQ4FYEQW5@jhmail.hcf.jhu.edu> for Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:47:25 EDT Received: from 128 ([128.220.149.157]) by jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu (980427.SGI.8.8.8/970903.SGI.AUTOCF) via SMTP id LAA50717 for ; Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:47:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2000 11:46:24 -0400 From: Ben Reynolds Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] [Teaching _Composition] A Practical Question In-reply-to: X-Sender: ewt2@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu To: Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com Message-id: <3.0.5.32.20000420114624.00a00c00@jhunix.hcf.jhu.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" References: <200004190220.VAA27879@corn.cso.niu.edu> Along with Chris's comment about the weekly pass, which is a great approach, I like what Rich is up to below. I think this is my approach, too. Of course, I dish out the "how can you do this to us?" guilt trip -- it's not about me but it is about workshopping with all of us -- and then I have them participate in workshops, peer review, what have you. After working with a fair number of dyslexic Art Dept students in a required 2nd level comp course at Big State Commuter University, I figured out that it is easier for them to talk (or keyboard-on-the-fly, if you want) than to come up w/ a presentable draft. Dyslexics can do it, but more slowly. So, to get mystical, you temper disappointment with love and an appreciation for what they are prepared for/what they can contribute to the group. At 10:05 PM 04/18/2000 -0500, rarice@bsuvc.bsu.edu wrote: >real_name >Allison and Michael: > [snip] If students do not come with assignments for the >day, etc., if they're "underprepared" for something in particular, I have >them capitalize on what they are prepared for. That is, creating >assignments and environments which enable students to connect the unknown >to whatever known they have at the moment, is key. > >Easier said then done, of course. > >.Rich Rice. Ben.Reynolds@jhu.edu Voice: 410-516-0161 Coordinator, Center for Distance Education FAX: 410-516-0587 Center for Talented Youth The Johns Hopkins University http://www.jhu.edu/gifted/cde 3400 N. Charles ST, Baltimore, MD USA 21218 From teaching_composition-admin Sun Apr 23 20:39:03 2000 Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.9]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA26454 for ; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 20:39:03 -0500 (CDT) From: AimeeDHall@aol.com Received: from AimeeDHall@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id z.36.4f3c9c8 (3872) for ; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 21:38:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <36.4f3c9c8.2634ff94@aol.com> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 21:38:28 EDT Subject: [Teaching_Composition] student efforts in lab. To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 104 Since there seems to be a lull in the discussion, I'll ask a question that may or may not generate a response or two. In my short teaching career, I've found that my students have a tendency to write less than in the normal class. It SEEMS to me that they might be under the impression that the focus of the lab assignment is mastering the technology (for example, learning how to post to a message board) and not on composition (developing CONTENT for the post). Despite my efforts to stress the importance of writing and to de-emphasize the medium for that writing, I still recieved very short, un-developed writing. Students responded to the prompt in as few words as possible, then exclaimed "I'm done," and asked to leave early. I now include length requirements in my lab prompts--"your answer should be X paragraphs long"-- but I still find that responses are not as well developed as traditional classroom responses. Can anyone give me advice about how to elicit more in-depth responses in a more effective and/or subtle way? Aimee Hall AimeeDHall@aol.com Teaching Assistant Northern Illinois University From teaching_composition-admin Sun Apr 23 21:30:29 2000 Received: from oats.farm.niu.edu (oats.farm.niu.edu [131.156.99.3]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27617 for ; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 21:30:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [131.156.128.221] (ts8-29.cso.niu.edu [131.156.128.221]) by oats.farm.niu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA00221 for ; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 21:29:57 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200004240229.VAA00221@oats.farm.niu.edu> Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] student efforts in lab. Date: Sun, 23 Apr 00 21:30:38 -0500 x-sender: z009714@oats.farm.niu.edu x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0v2, June 6, 1997 From: Matt Duncan To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by greenhouse.eppg.com id VAA27618 Hello folks, This is my first post to this list, but I'm a co-conspirator with Aimee, Michael, Meredith, and Eric on the current web posting and discussion topic. In response to Aimee's question, and to add another potential tangent: I, too, notice students treating lab assignments as either opportunities to learn new tools and gizmos, or as just another version of email. The problem here, and the source of anxiety for me, is that I don't know how I feel about demanding "good writing" and "good grammar" in email. The linguistics/grammar scene here at NIU seems to maintain that email does not require professional/academic grammar, and that shorthand and the like are acceptable. For many of my students, this carries over to anything that is done outside of a Word Processor application. "Posting" to a message-board or listserv is separate from composition, less structured (in their minds, I think) and therefore less formal. I think that having students compose their responses in the Word Processing application (like MS Word, Wordperfect, etc.) and then cut/copy & paste their text into the message board or into an email may be one way to "formalize" student lab work. Since there's already a multi-step procedure, adding the steps of "proofread" and "revise" may not seem like such a task. Another potential idea is to incorporate the METHODS of that revision and composition into the assignment itself. Assign two drafts, perhaps the first in a notebook/journal. Grade the improvement or development along with the content of the response itself. After a few times like, maybe it won't be necessary anymore. I think Aimee hits the problem dead on, though: > Despite my efforts to stress the importance of writing > and to de-emphasize the medium for that writing The medium and the cultural/mental baggage it carries can affect the nature and quality of responses. --Matt ________________________________________ "Political language‹and with variations this is true of all political parties, from Conservatives to Anarchists‹is designed to make lies sound truthful and murder respectable, and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind." ‹George Orwell From teaching_composition-admin Sun Apr 23 22:19:24 2000 Received: from mail.kwom.com (root@mail.kwom.com [206.185.16.5]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28723 for ; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 22:19:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kwom.com (pm3-1-43.kwom.com [206.185.17.43]) by mail.kwom.com (8.9.2/8.8.8) with ESMTP id WAA21337 for ; Sun, 23 Apr 2000 22:18:18 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3903BDD4.67704485@kwom.com> Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2000 22:22:17 -0500 From: Kafkaz Reply-To: Kafkaz@kwom.com Organization: College of DuPage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] student efforts in lab. References: <200004240229.VAA00221@oats.farm.niu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit AimeeDHall@aol.com wrote: > > I now include length requirements in my lab prompts--"your answer should be X > paragraphs long"-- but I still find that responses are not as well developed > as traditional classroom responses. Can anyone give me advice about how to > elicit more in-depth responses in a more effective and/or subtle way? > > Aimee Hall One thing that can work pretty well is to write in response to some or all of the prompts yourself, then post your responses for the class to read. It's a bit time consuming, and it means staying a jump or two ahead of what you have planned for class (at least, I like to have my responses posted the evening before class begins so that students can read them before or as they write, if they wish), but there are some real benefits. First, when teacher does the assignment too, the workshop (ideas in progress here!) atmosphere we strive to develop in class becomes somehow more real--more palpable. Surprises students, pleasantly, to see their teacher wrestling with the same ideas they are, and it makes it possible for the teacher honestly to address her struggles with it. Second, it gives the teacher a chance to view the assignment in an entirely different light. I think it wasn't until I began writing with my students as often as possible that I really came to appreciate how the way I structure or word an assignment can actually generate problems. Third, and not by any means least, it's fun. Seems really weird to have become a writing teacher largely because one loves to write, and then to discover that teaching writing allows little time for writing oneself. Too strange! This solves that. Keeps me, at least, in touch with why I love doing this crazy, sometimes exhausting, thing we do. A potential drawback that someone always brings up when I make this suggestion, and rightly so, is that some students might be intimidated by the teacher's writing--afraid that theirs will, somehow, not measure up. The way around that, I think, is to keep your writing for them as genuine as possible. I take odd twists and turns when I'm in a rush of invention, make tons of goofs when I draft, and often have to tweak the structure--beginnings and endings, in particular--as I revise. Being honest about both having more years of experience as a writer than students do, *and* still having a heck of a long ways to go before approaching anything even on the outskirts of perfection seems a good way to take advantage of the benefits of writing with students without inadvertently silencing them. Plus, since I post my writing to our web space, the students who want to ignore it can. (Of course, I set up the space so that *everybody's* writing is accessible, so similar benefits flow from that. Often, students who are feeling stuck, or who are having a hard time developing the habit of elaborating on ideas get helped along tremendously by surveying the writing of their peers.) Kathy at C.O.D. From teaching_composition-admin Mon Apr 24 14:43:03 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA22375 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 14:43:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (webct126.webct.com [140.239.69.126]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id 2WFYR27X; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:57:56 -0400 Message-ID: <026101bfae25$5ad38da0$7e45ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: "tc" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] This list Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 15:43:24 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_025E_01BFAE03.D3B2AB60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_025E_01BFAE03.D3B2AB60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all: Monday greetings. A bunch of new people have been added to the = list, so I'll make some comments about our guiding ideas here. This list is a service of McGraw-Hill, and the service is supported in = part by WebCT (my company). The idea is to provide a place where = disciplinary leaders (Michael Day at Northern Illinois University is = "on" this week) can talk about issues within our field that newer = members of the discipline would like to hear about. In other words, a = semi-public schmoozing spot. Every two weeks, a new disciplinary leader joins us and serves as guest = moderator. The materials for each new disciplinary leader are posted on = our Web site at: http://www.mhhe.com/socscience/english/tc/ Currently, we are discussing "teaching composition in a networked = classroom." Michael, if you want to sum up what's happened in the last week, that = might be helpful. Welcome to all our new members. Trent _________________ Trent Batson, Ph.D., Consultant WebCT Two Corporation Way Peabody, MA 01960 978-538-0036 401-225-5009 (cell) 978-538-0309 (fax) www.webct.com ------=_NextPart_000_025E_01BFAE03.D3B2AB60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi all:  Monday greetings.  A = bunch of=20 new people have been added to the list, so I'll make some comments about = our=20 guiding ideas here.
 
This list is a service of McGraw-Hill, = and the=20 service is supported in part by WebCT (my company).  The idea is to = provide=20 a place where disciplinary leaders (Michael Day at Northern Illinois = University=20 is "on" this week) can talk about issues within our field that newer = members of=20 the discipline would like to hear about.  In other words, a = semi-public=20 schmoozing spot.
 
Every two weeks, a new disciplinary = leader joins us=20 and serves as guest moderator.  The materials for each new = disciplinary=20 leader are posted on our Web site at:
 
http://www.mhhe.com/s= ocscience/english/tc/
 
Currently, we are discussing "teaching = composition=20 in a networked classroom."
 
Michael, if you want to sum up what's = happened in=20 the last week, that might be helpful.
 
Welcome to all our new = members.
 
Trent
_________________
Trent = Batson,=20 Ph.D.,
Consultant
WebCT
Two Corporation Way
Peabody, MA=20 01960
 
978-538-0036
401-225-5009 = (cell)
978-538-0309=20 (fax)
www.webct.com
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_025E_01BFAE03.D3B2AB60-- From teaching_composition-admin Mon Apr 24 18:02:12 2000 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (tb0mxd1@corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA26528 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:02:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from tb0mxd1@localhost) by corn.cso.niu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id SAA12015; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:02:07 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:02:07 -0500 (CDT) From: day michael Message-Id: <200004242302.SAA12015@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: Trent.Batson@webct.com, teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] This list Hi again everyone on Teaching Composition! Thanks to Trent for keeping me on task; with all the papers to grade and students knocking at my door, I have been hard pressed to find time to get back to this discussion. But now it's time for a recap, and another call for responses from those of you who are out there just dying to send in a question or comment. A week ago I asked you to make sure you had seen our web site for this section of tcomp, http://www.engl.niu.edu/tcomp, then I asked for questions, concerns, and feedback on the site and its underlying principles. I also posed the following questions to get discussion going. These are still open for discussion! *My supervisor requires me to teach in a computer classroom; what should I do? *I'd like to take my class to a computer classroom, but our composition program does not have one. What should I do? *I teach in a computer classroom, and my colleagues think I am wasting my students' time. How should I explain what we do to them? *My students participate in face-to-face discussion, but I can't get them to discuss at any length with much conviction on line. What should I do? *The server crashed and the machines are all useless. My fifty minutes of precious time are evaporating. Now what? *Publishers of are asking me to adopt their writing/courseware package for my class. How should I decide what to use? *Besides this list, where can I look for help and advice? Elizabeth Wardle then asked a provocative question about being forced to teach in a computer classroom without adequate preparation and not seeing in her classes the benefits and community building many of us "technorhetoricians" rave about. Meredith Larson and I responded at length, just check out the archive at http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/private/teaching_composition/2000 -April/thread.html to follow the thread. Overall, we advocated being flexible, having a "plan B," finding a balance of face-to- face activities, using student experts, pairing up students, and reminding students of real world applications for writing on computers and networks. Those who are looking for sources for evidence about the benefits of using a networked writing classroom should check out the "What Evidence Shows" thread started by Chris Amirault and answered by Linda Adler-Kassner and Judy Williamson. Tom Brown started an interesting thread early last week on using Track Changes in MS Word for student revisions. Rich Rice and Chris Johnston provided some excellent examples. Then Tuesday, Allison Bartlett asked what to do about students who come to the lab unprepared, provoking me into one of my predictable "let students work on different projects" responses. But then Chris Amirault, Rich Rice, and Ben Reynolds jumped in with some great discussion of strategies for keeping students involved and on task. Dean Rehberger also commented, but I just realized that the response came only to me; I have asked that the message be reposted. This took us into Thursday, at which point I think we all needed a breather for the weekend. Aimee Hall and Matt Duncan posted last night, but I don't see Matt's post in the archives. Any idea why it does not show up, Trent? Anyway, Aimee asked about a familiar problem, that student responses in electronic environments often tend to be shorter, so short of stating strict page or paragraph requirements, how do we inspire them to write at greater length? Kathy Fitch responded that we teachers should be writing in response to our prompts too. Good models, gives us better perspective on how our students feel, etc. I'm really in awe of Kathy that she has the time to do this. Wow! But back to Aimee's question, I too find myself falling back on very explicit guidelines for page or paragraph length of an acceptable response, and I feel squeamish about having to do that. Surely there must be ways of constructing writing prompts that naturally demand more development, more exposition? At least I figured out how to write peer evaluation questions that can't be answered with a "yes" or "no"! I changed the structure of the question from "Does the writer…?" to "How does the writer…?" and use the word "describe" a lot. Matt has a good point about the lax standards for grammar and correctness in e-mail, simply because the computer communication culture has fostered a kind of easy shorthand for quick messages. Matt's solution, to compose first in a word processor, sounds like a good strategy. I've also tried asking students to do multiple drafts of e-mail for professional purposes, reminding them that getting a response from someone they don't know might depend on their writing appearing as professional as possible. But this is written up elsewhere (see http://www.engl.niu.edu/mday/web/GALINCHA.html if interested). I've gone on way too long, but I hope this fits what you were looking for in the way of a summary, Trent. Back to list members: What questions and concerns do YOU have about teaching composition in a networked classroom? I know that there are lots of new list members out there; won't you come out and play? Best, Michael From teaching_composition-admin Mon Apr 24 18:39:50 2000 Received: from smtp.ufl.edu (sp28fe.nerdc.ufl.edu [128.227.128.108]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA27671 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 18:39:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nwe.ufl.edu (ppp-s250-n37-as2.nerdc.ufl.edu [128.227.250.37]) by smtp.ufl.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3/2.2.1) with ESMTP id TAA300144; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:39:39 -0400 Message-ID: <3904A2C6.7D99A770@nwe.ufl.edu> Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 19:38:56 +0000 From: ronan Reply-To: ronan@nwe.ufl.edu Organization: little, if any X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.06 (Macintosh; U; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: day michael CC: Trent.Batson@webct.com, teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] This list References: <200004242302.SAA12015@corn.cso.niu.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit day michael wrote: > > Elizabeth Wardle then asked a provocative question about being > forced to teach in a computer classroom without adequate > preparation and not seeing in her classes the benefits and > community building many of us "technorhetoricians" rave about. > Meredith Larson and I responded at length, just check out the > archive at > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/private/teaching_composition/2000 > -April/thread.html to follow the thread. Overall, we advocated > being flexible, having a "plan B," finding a balance of face-to- > face activities, using student experts, pairing up students, and > reminding students of real world applications for writing on > computers and networks. michael, when I go to this URL I am asked for my Teaching_Composition password. Have I been issued such a thing? Why do I need a password to read the archives of a list I am subscribed to? What are the advantages a password protected archive offer? anyway, just thought I would ask. ronan From teaching_composition-admin Mon Apr 24 21:36:44 2000 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (tb0mxd1@corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA01315 for ; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:36:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from tb0mxd1@localhost) by corn.cso.niu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id VAA21386; Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:36:39 -0500 (CDT) Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2000 21:36:39 -0500 (CDT) From: day michael Message-Id: <200004250236.VAA21386@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: ronan@nwe.ufl.edu Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] This list Cc: Trent.Batson@webct.com, teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Good point, John! I forgot to mention in my post that there is in fact a password to the archive, but it's the same password all of us were issued when we signed on to Teaching_Composition. Being too dumb to find mine, I just looked around until I found a button that said "Send me my password" after I typed in my e-mail address, and in seconds I was reminded of the password. Maybe Trent can explain more, but I would imagine that the password protection is out of consideration for the privacy of those who participate in the Teaching_Composition discussion. Although many of us don't care who reads what we post, some of us might want some restrictions, at least the restriction to people subscribed to the list. Anyway, that's my theory. But thanks for reminding me to tell everyone that they need a password to read the archives, and how to get it if you forgot it. Best, Michael From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 25 13:30:21 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA23871 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:30:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (webct158.webct.com [140.239.69.158]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id 2WFYRP9M; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:45:44 -0400 Message-ID: <015201bfaee4$69c8b140$9e45ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: "teachingcomp" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] teachingcomp: avoiding hard questions? Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:31:03 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_014F_01BFAEC2.E26324E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_014F_01BFAEC2.E26324E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The networked classroom, as Michael and I think of it, involves students = and faculty all in a classroom but communicating via a chat tool instead = of talking (at least for part of the time, anyway). Having done this since 1985, I am painfully aware of the many problems = as well as joyfully aware of the many pleasures. From flaming, to ganging up on one student, to the tendency to write = short, flip responses -- From the network failing to students losing all their work From the teacher losing all authority to students deciding they can join = class from the comfort of their dorm room And from vital, engaging discussions to having to force students to = leave, finally, about 30 minutes after the class was supposed to end Or from students having an epiphany about the value of knowing who you = are writing to, to students discovering that they are witty writers = after all . . . We've compared it to riding a one-eyed horse (anyone know that poem?) Or to existing WITHIN an evolving text. Anyway you look at it, energies are released. Your job, should you = accept it, is to use those energies. =20 This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds. _________________ Trent Batson, Ph.D., Consultant WebCT Two Corporation Way Peabody, MA 01960 978-538-0036 401-225-5009 (cell) 978-538-0309 (fax) www.webct.com ------=_NextPart_000_014F_01BFAEC2.E26324E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
The networked classroom, as Michael and = I think of=20 it, involves students and faculty all in a classroom but communicating = via a=20 chat tool instead of talking (at least for part of the time,=20 anyway).
 
Having done this since 1985, I am = painfully aware=20 of the many problems as well as joyfully aware of the many=20 pleasures.
 
From flaming, to ganging up on one = student, to the=20 tendency to write short, flip responses --
 
From the network failing to students = losing all=20 their work
 
From the teacher losing all authority = to students=20 deciding they can join class from the comfort of their dorm = room
 
And from vital, engaging discussions to = having to=20 force students to leave, finally, about 30 minutes after the class was = supposed=20 to end
 
Or from students having an epiphany = about the value=20 of knowing who you are writing to, to students discovering that they are = witty=20 writers after all . . .
 
We've compared it to riding a one-eyed = horse=20 (anyone know that poem?)
 
Or to existing WITHIN an evolving=20 text.
 
Anyway you look at it, energies are = released. =20 Your job, should you accept it, is to use those energies.  =
 
This message will self-destruct in 5=20 seconds.

_________________
Trent Batson,=20 Ph.D.,
Consultant
WebCT
Two Corporation Way
Peabody, MA=20 01960
 
978-538-0036
401-225-5009 = (cell)
978-538-0309=20 (fax)
www.webct.com
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_014F_01BFAEC2.E26324E0-- From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 25 14:22:42 2000 Received: from imo-d02.mx.aol.com (imo-d02.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.34]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25215 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:22:41 -0500 (CDT) From: AimeeDHall@aol.com Received: from AimeeDHall@aol.com by imo-d02.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v25.3.) id z.5a.446a25e (6094) for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:22:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <5a.446a25e.26374a5e@aol.com> Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:22:06 EDT Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] teachingcomp: avoiding hard questions? To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Unknown (No Version) Trent Batson wrote: << From the teacher losing all authority to students deciding they can join class from the comfort of their dorm room.<< Do you think students joining class from the comfort of their dorm rooms is always a bad thing? Last semester, I felt my students had really caught on to the ins and outs of the software we were using (a program which combines a message board format with chat rooms and instant messages). So towards the end of the semester, I told them it was ok to sign on from home. I still held class in the computer lab for those who weren't comfortable "Going to class" without a teacher in the room. Each week, more and more students signed on from home (the program we use also allowed me to take attendence); fewer and fewer needed my help. Students who had problems could "instant message" me, but for the most part they worked fine without extra help from me. Because my class met at 8am, I had pretty low attendence all semester, but on several occasions, ALL of my students "showed up" for class when they could do so in the comfort of their own dorm rooms. I suppose I don't necessarily know that it was the STUDENT signed on and not his or her roomate or friend, but I never found any reason to be suspicious. Are there issues I'm missing here? Some reason why signing on from home is less valuable than signing on in the lab? Aimee Hall AimeeDHall@aol.com Teaching Assistant Northern Illinois University From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 25 14:30:46 2000 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (tb0mxd1@corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25399 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:30:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from tb0mxd1@localhost) by corn.cso.niu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA06641; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:30:37 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:30:37 -0500 (CDT) From: day michael Message-Id: <200004251930.OAA06641@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: AimeeDHall@aol.com, teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Cathy's message Hi all! Not sure what's going on, but Cathy Fussell and Kathy Fitch's latests messages seem to have come only to me, not to the list. I'll repost Cathy's message for you all first, then repost Kathy's in a second message. Sorry about the inconvenience! Cathy's message: From FUSSELL_CATHY@colstate.edu Tue Apr 25 07:27 CDT 2000 From: "Cathy Fussell" To: day michael Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 08:26:55 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] This list Okay, Michael -- I'll accept your offer to come out and play. I guess I'm responding at least in part to the "My supervisor requires me to teach in a computer classroom; what should I do?" part. I wonder if our situation here at Columbus (Georgia) State University is unique. At the risk of sounding self-serving, I'll give you a description: Several years ago, before I was here, CSU received a windfall of computers and software. Now, this was pretty much all of a sudden, after years of technologial drought, if I may continue my weather metaphor. Okay, so maybe "flood" is better than "windfall." Anyway, Language and Literature all of a sudden had two completely outfitted technology labs and nobody knew much about how to use them. So some wise person decided to employ ME, a veteran high school teacher with a particular interest in technology. My job is to come up with innovative and effective ways to use the technology, and to pass these ideas on to faculty. I use a variety of ways to do this -- "Periodic Tips" sent sporadically via e-mail; offers to demonstrate, workshop, experiment, with my own classes or with others' classes (I teach one or two freshman level courses); presentations at departmental meetings; whatever other formal or informal methods I can come up with. I've been here almost two years, and it seems to be working. Both labs are in use most of the time, and most faculty members are much more positive about using technology than they once were. Anyway, to make a long story end, it seems to have helped us to have present in the labs a NON-TENURE TRACK TEACHER-TYPE TECHNOLOGY PERSON whose sole job it is to help faculty members. I have worked hard to keep the lab scheduling flexible and the lab atmosphere non-threatening. My efforts seem to be paying off; at any rate, I'M having a good time! Cathy Cathy Fussell, Writing Lab Coordinator Department of Language and Literature Columbus State University Columbus, GA 31907-5645 _________________________ Cathy, it looks like you have been very successful! Congratulations. I wonder if you would be able to share some strategies with us for getting our colleagues interested in and feeling confident about teaching in a networked classroom? Thanks, Michael From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 25 14:40:05 2000 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (tb0mxd1@corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25574 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:40:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from tb0mxd1@localhost) by corn.cso.niu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA07462; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:40:02 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:40:02 -0500 (CDT) From: day michael Message-Id: <200004251940.OAA07462@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: AimeeDHall@aol.com, teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Kathy's message As promised, here is Kathy Fitch's message that seemed to come to me only, not to the list. I'd like to share all her very helpful strategies with you. I know that I'm always wondering how to fit in all these activities, and Kathy helps us see a way to do it. Kathy's message: From Kafkaz@kwom.com Tue Apr 25 13:56 CDT 2000 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 13:57:21 -0500 From: Kafkaz X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: day michael Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] This list Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit day michael wrote: > Good models, gives us betterperspective on how our students feel, etc. . > . . she has the time to do this. Wow! > Guess I should clarify. I *don't* have time, never have time (though I vaguely recall a free hour around this time of year back in 1968--probably piddled it away blowing bubbles and watching them drift off in the breeze. . .), but I *like* to write, and see the benefits that accrue to students, so I beg, borrow, cheat, and steal to get it. Here's how. --Rather than marking every draft (a great time eater, that, and for relatively little benefit to anyone concerned), I opt for workshops, individual conferences, and sometimes small group conferences. Plus, I end up doing a lot of the "process" feedback on the fly in class, which is easy and natural in a lab setting. (Tiring, too, though, hey? Teaching's always somewhat physical, but the lab can be a regular workout.) --I cheat all the time. So, if I'm teaching more than one section of a course, which I generally am, I'm only writing once to a prompt that I may end up using in two or three courses. Plus, I save everything, so if I use some version of the same prompt in a later quarter, I might drag out my writing from last time if I'm in a really severe time pinch. Sometimes I'll mess around with it a little more, then--and I always do clarify that this is an example from last semester when I do that. I try to be an *honest* cheater! --Sometimes, I bring in things that I'm writing for other purposes. A course proposal, say, or an assessment report, or a memo, or an essay that I like. That way, even if I'm not doing *the* assignment (which is better, I think, but not always possible), students still get to see plenty of my mud pie messes, too. Seems only fair. --If a student raises a question that seems likely to be shared by others, I'll post the response I compose to the group as a whole. Hafta do that writing, in any case, so might as well make the best possible use of it. For instance, I do a lot of CATing. So, early in a quarter I might ask students to throw together a couple of "muddiest point" questions. Then, I go through them and try to figure out how to categorize them and boil them down to, say, the top five or ten questions. Then, I write out my answers and post them to the class. This is another instance in which I can cheat a bit by pooling the muddiest points from several sections, and posting the same answers to all of them. Hmm. Guess the point I'm trying ,maybe not so successfully, to make is that if students are to come to see the class's online space as a *writing* and *exploration* space, they need to see that in action, and the teacher can go a long way toward making that happen. (And once that ball is rolling, the students will become more engaged in their own and each others' writing, too.) If it's a worksheet space, and it looks like one, then I don't think length requirements are likely to solve the brevity problem. Maybe they'll even unintentionally exacerbate it by *confirming* the space as a "busy work" domain. Does that make sense? Anyway, I'm off to the great outdoors with kids in tow. Nice breezy day. Maybe we'll blow bubbles. Not piddling, after all, but a kind of composition all its own: breathing soap into rainbowed spheres spinning on the wind. I should make more time for that . . . Kathy at C.O.D. ___________________________ Kathy, I just love that metaphor of a composition as a soap bubble, a rainbowed sphere spinning on the wind! May we all have as much imagination with our classes as we learn how to generate those word bubbles on networked computers. Michael From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 25 14:43:47 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25773 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:43:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (webct158.webct.com [140.239.69.158]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id 2WFYRQ5K; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:59:09 -0400 Message-ID: <019901bfaeee$ab16a260$9e45ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: References: <200004251922.OAA25244@greenhouse.eppg.com> Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Signing on from home Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:44:28 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Aimee: I just don't know if it's good or bad. I think doing it once a week (with first year students) might be ok. I had the experience one time, however, of my students thinking (when we were having class remotely) that we should only continue for about 20 minutes and then they pretty much started disappearing. This was at Seton Hall where students largely come from Catholic high schools so perhaps the lack of physically present authority went to their heads. So, maybe this depends on your own students and their orientation. Trent ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 3:22 PM Subject: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #31 - 1 msg > > Send Teaching_Composition maillist submissions to > teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the web, visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com > You can reach the person managing the list at > teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > > (When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of Teaching_Composition digest...") > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: teachingcomp: avoiding hard questions? (aimeedhall@aol.com) > > --__--__-- > > Message: 1 > From: AimeeDHall@aol.com > Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:22:06 EDT > Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] teachingcomp: avoiding hard questions? > To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > > Trent Batson wrote: > << From the teacher losing all authority to students deciding they can join class from the comfort of their dorm room.<< > > Do you think students joining class from the comfort of their dorm rooms is always a bad thing? > > Last semester, I felt my students had really caught on to the ins and outs of the software we were using (a program which combines a message board format with chat rooms and instant messages). So towards the end of the semester, I told them it was ok to sign on from home. I still held class in the computer lab for those who weren't comfortable "Going to class" without a teacher in the room. > > Each week, more and more students signed on from home (the program we use also allowed me to take attendence); fewer and fewer needed my help. Students who had problems could "instant message" me, but for the most part they worked fine without extra help from me. Because my class met at 8am, I had pretty low attendence all semester, but on several occasions, ALL of my students "showed up" for class when they could do so in the comfort of their own dorm rooms. > > I suppose I don't necessarily know that it was the STUDENT signed on and not his or her roomate or friend, but I never found any reason to be suspicious. > > Are there issues I'm missing here? Some reason why signing on from home is less valuable than signing on in the lab? > > Aimee Hall > AimeeDHall@aol.com > > Teaching Assistant > Northern Illinois University > > > > --__--__-- > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > > --__--__---- > > End of Teaching_Composition Digest From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 25 14:48:14 2000 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (tb0mxd1@corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA25997 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:48:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from tb0mxd1@localhost) by corn.cso.niu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id OAA08108; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:47:53 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 14:47:53 -0500 (CDT) From: day michael Message-Id: <200004251947.OAA08108@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: Trent.Batson@webct.com, teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] teachingcomp: avoiding hard questions? Thank you Trent for listing not only some of the harder questions, but also the joys and epiphanies of the networked writing classroom. I'm always amazed by the sound of the networked classroom: furious clattering keys punctuated by an occasional "Wow" or peals of laughter, then merging seamlessly into an impromptu oral discussion raised by the the "wow" or laughter, suddenly lapsing back into quiet and clattering keys when the written conversation grabs attention back. It's like a three-ring circus, and I try to be ready for anything. Michael From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 25 15:00:04 2000 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (tb0mxd1@corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA26271 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:00:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from tb0mxd1@localhost) by corn.cso.niu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA09449; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:00:01 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 15:00:01 -0500 (CDT) From: day michael Message-Id: <200004252000.PAA09449@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: Trent.Batson@webct.com, teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Signing on from home Aimee raises a great question that to me relates to important issues in distance education. Can we say that there are distinct advantages to having students in a room with us, advantages related to the ease of making connections and asking questions, the heightened sense of shared responsibility and class community that goes with seeing and hearing other human beings in the class? What forms of interaction and synergy might we be missing out on if our class is distributed throughout isolated homes and dorm rooms? What extra precautions need we take to help keep class responsibility and community at high levels if students are not physically present? Which interactive tools foster class community best? I think it's great to allow students to "attend" from home now and then, but I would hate to lose the sense of a physical class community, even in a computer classroom. We need to find the right balance of face-to-face and virtual activities. Michael From teaching_composition-admin Tue Apr 25 23:15:51 2000 Received: from cs1.wauknet.com (cs1.wauknet.com [156.46.216.10]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id XAA07186 for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:15:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from krahn ([156.46.216.133]) by cs1.wauknet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52091U1300L100S0V35) with ESMTP id com for ; Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:17:30 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000425231212.009abb90@mail.wauknet.com> X-Sender: krahn@mail.wauknet.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:17:17 -0500 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com From: "Albert E. Krahn" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Converse? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Trent Since you've been at this for so long, maybe you can fill me in about a dual screen program named Converse that was used in the vicinity of 1984. Have you ever heard of it? If so, did it work? The reference popped up in an article from Oct 1984. Was it anything like Connect, Daedalus, or--what's the name of the third one around now that uses a split screen? Maybe someone else may have heard of it. akra From teaching_composition-admin Wed Apr 26 10:05:37 2000 Received: from beach.silcom.com (beach.silcom.com [199.201.128.19]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23166 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 10:05:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from www (pm2-42.sba1.avtel.net [207.71.218.142]) by beach.silcom.com (Postfix) with SMTP id AEC081455A5 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 08:05:34 -0700 (PDT) From: "Chris Johnston" To: "teachingcomp" Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] teachingcomp: avoiding hard questions? Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 08:04:49 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <015201bfaee4$69c8b140$9e45ef8c@ULT> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal ^^^^^^^^....not my name ;-) Trent (& other more experienced folk): I certainly agree with you and realize that a networked classroom releases whole new sets of energies in the classroom to be harnassed, but one of the most difficult problems I've had to deal with is figuring out how to "harness" the energy identified as the first problem on your list: "From flaming, to ganging up on one student, to the tendency to write short, flip responses" I haven't run across much recent research into this phenomenon, but it sure does exist. I'm looking for a sound approach to dealing with this type of situation. It seems quite distinct from the student who acts out in a f2f environment, in fact, in my experience a mild mannered, polite individual can change into quite a flaming monster due to the mediating effect of the computer environment. What do you make of that? Chris Johnston -----Original Message----- From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com]On Behalf Of Trent Batson Sent: Tuesday, April 25, 2000 11:31 AM To: teachingcomp Subject: [Teaching_Composition] teachingcomp: avoiding hard questions? The networked classroom, as Michael and I think of it, involves students and faculty all in a classroom but communicating via a chat tool instead of talking (at least for part of the time, anyway). Having done this since 1985, I am painfully aware of the many problems as well as joyfully aware of the many pleasures. From flaming, to ganging up on one student, to the tendency to write short, flip responses -- From the network failing to students losing all their work From the teacher losing all authority to students deciding they can join class from the comfort of their dorm room And from vital, engaging discussions to having to force students to leave, finally, about 30 minutes after the class was supposed to end Or from students having an epiphany about the value of knowing who you are writing to, to students discovering that they are witty writers after all . . . We've compared it to riding a one-eyed horse (anyone know that poem?) Or to existing WITHIN an evolving text. Anyway you look at it, energies are released. Your job, should you accept it, is to use those energies. This message will self-destruct in 5 seconds. _________________ Trent Batson, Ph.D., Consultant WebCT Two Corporation Way Peabody, MA 01960 978-538-0036 401-225-5009 (cell) 978-538-0309 (fax) www.webct.com From teaching_composition-admin Wed Apr 26 10:14:25 2000 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (tb0mxd1@corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24024 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 10:14:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from tb0mxd1@localhost) by corn.cso.niu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id KAA28672; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 10:14:05 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 10:14:05 -0500 (CDT) From: day michael Message-Id: <200004261514.KAA28672@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: chrisj@education.ucsb.edu, teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] teachingcomp: avoiding hard questions? Chris, I know Trent will jump in on this one, but Sharon Cogdill has an excellent chapter on dealing with flaming and other disruptive student behaviors in networked writing classrooms, now available in _The Online Writing Classroom_. You can find more information about that text in the Resources section of our featured web, http://www.engl.niu.edu/tcomp/. Best, Michael From teaching_composition-admin Wed Apr 26 10:42:32 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA24588 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 10:42:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (webct167.webct.com [140.239.69.167]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id 2WFYRWZS; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:58:02 -0400 Message-ID: <003a01bfaf96$214ccde0$a745ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: , "Albert E. Krahn" References: <4.2.0.58.20000425231212.009abb90@mail.wauknet.com> Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Converse? Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:43:12 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Al: sorry, haven't heard of Converse. The "split screen" is common to all chat tools that I've seen, including MOOs, divided between your private composing space and the public streaming "conversation" space. Trent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Albert E. Krahn" To: Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 12:17 AM Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Converse? > real_name > Trent > Since you've been at this for so long, maybe you can fill me in about a > dual screen program named Converse that > was used in the vicinity of 1984. Have you ever heard of it? If so, did it > work? > The reference popped up in an article from Oct 1984. > > Was it anything like Connect, Daedalus, or--what's the name of the third > one around now that uses a split screen? > > Maybe someone else may have heard of it. > > akra > > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition From teaching_composition-admin Wed Apr 26 11:34:33 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA26046 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 11:34:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (webct167.webct.com [140.239.69.167]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id 2WFYRXMT; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:50:02 -0400 Message-ID: <00d101bfaf9d$658b0880$a745ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: "teachingcomp" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Flaming Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:35:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Michael and Chris and others: here a good dose of teacher judgment comes into play -- students live by being contrary and pushing our buttons, as we all know. I love it when that's creative and just a bit outrageous. But both they and you know when they have stepped over the line - when the language becomes unacceptable or when one person is becoming the object of abuse. A simple warning the first time, either vocally or in the chat, should be enough -- and make sure you do it in a matter-of-fact way, acknowledging that both you and they know there's been a breach of taste or consideration. Those teachers who make too big a deal, or over-react, will be rewarded with more testing, as it has now become a game. In the rare cases where a student didn't "get it" the first time and insisted on being over the line, I've told them simply that a continuation of their behavior will get them out kicked out of class. Usually, right at the start of the semester, students will test the limits. Be very quick and absolute -- it won't be tolerated, period. Just say it or write it simply and with no show of emotion, and then move on with the conversation. In almost all cases, everyone will be relieved that you've established parameters. Trent ----- Original Message ----- From: "day michael" To: ; Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 11:14 AM Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] teachingcomp: avoiding hard questions? > real_name > > Chris, I know Trent will jump in on this one, but Sharon Cogdill > has an excellent chapter on dealing with flaming and other > disruptive student behaviors in networked writing classrooms, > now available in _The Online Writing Classroom_. You can find > more information about that text in the Resources section of > our featured web, http://www.engl.niu.edu/tcomp/. > > Best, > > Michael > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition From teaching_composition-admin Wed Apr 26 12:01:46 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA26383 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 12:01:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (webct167.webct.com [140.239.69.167]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id 2WFYRXW2; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 13:17:17 -0400 Message-ID: <010b01bfafa1$33bbbbc0$a745ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: "teachingcomp" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Did "real_name" disappear? Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 13:02:27 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0108_01BFAF7F.AC4E8E40" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0108_01BFAF7F.AC4E8E40 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think we might have been successful in eliminating that silly little = "real_name" header appearing in all messages. I'm surprised it didn't = launch a thread on the metaphysical question of what IS one's real = name????? Trent _________________ Trent Batson, Ph.D., Consultant WebCT Two Corporation Way Peabody, MA 01960 978-538-0036 401-225-5009 (cell) 978-538-0309 (fax) www.webct.com ------=_NextPart_000_0108_01BFAF7F.AC4E8E40 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I think we might have been successful = in=20 eliminating that silly little "real_name" header appearing in all=20 messages.  I'm surprised it didn't launch a thread on the = metaphysical=20 question of what IS one's real name?????
 
Trent

_________________
Trent Batson,=20 Ph.D.,
Consultant
WebCT
Two Corporation Way
Peabody, MA=20 01960
 
978-538-0036
401-225-5009 = (cell)
978-538-0309=20 (fax)
www.webct.com
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0108_01BFAF7F.AC4E8E40-- From teaching_composition-admin Wed Apr 26 14:16:54 2000 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (root@corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA29914 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:16:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from niu.edu ([131.156.77.99]) by corn.cso.niu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id OAA21575 for ; Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:16:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <39074162.23B9F385@niu.edu> Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 14:20:02 -0500 From: Eric Hoffman X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.72 [en] (WinNT; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: teachingcomp Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Flaming References: <00d101bfaf9d$658b0880$a745ef8c@ULT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi all. I'd like to expand on Trent excellent advice. Tapping into Michael's recent Computers and Composition article ("Teachers at the Crossroads: Evaluating Teaching in Electronic Environments"), I think that a degree of meta-narrative is important in the electronic classroom. Teachers should not assume that students know how act in an electronic environment, but should explicitly address that aspect of the course, explaining why the environment is being used, what they hope to accomplish through it, and the ground rules of behavior. I usually take this as an opportunity to negotiate a set of rules with my students, arriving through a dialogic process a set of expectations for students and for the teacher. During this negotiation, I usually contextualize the virtual classroom as an extension of the traditional classroom (or vice versa) -- the point of this is not to attempt to eliminate the very real differences between the environments, but rather, to highlight some of those differences in terms of how they act as pedagogical spaces. The assumed premise, of course, is that the virtual classroom IS a space of pedagogy, and the subsequent negotiations revolve around the best ways to facilitate that process. A final point of meta-narration that I spend a good deal of time and attention discussing with my classes are the functions of identity. To invoke Foucault, it seems clear that the author-function operates very differently in an electronic environment than it does in a print based environment. Although this difference can be dangerous in terms of abuse, flames, and other sorts of inappropriate behavior, I think it can also be quite helpful. More specifically, the fluidity of identity on the web has proven to be an extremely useful way for my students to start thinking about the "I" which they are creating through their written discourse in any medium. Many of my students have an ingrained sense that anytime they see an "I" in print, that the reference of that pronoun is automatically the "real" author of the text, and that they can read this "I" as a transparent representation of that real person. One of my primary goals in composition courses is to help students control that nature and function of their own written "I", so I have found a discussion of the relationship between medium and identity an extremely useful tool. I usually return to this issue several times over the course of the semester, particularly when discussing the evaluation of resources (web and print) and and determination of "authority." By the by, I do not actually use these terms with my first-year students (I tried it once and learned my lesson ;-) Now having said all this, let me add that there are still students who refuse to accept any trace of maturity, responsibility, or education, and who still take great joy flaming other students (which behavior always reminds me of a grade-schooler who learns how to swear). In those cases, I follow Trent's advice: first, a warning; second, a private conference to repeat and strengthen the warning; third, severe disciplinary action. --Eric Hoffman Trent Batson wrote: > Michael and Chris and others: here a good dose of teacher judgment comes > into play -- students live by being contrary and pushing our buttons, as we > all know. I love it when that's creative and just a bit outrageous. But > both they and you know when they have stepped over the line - when the > language becomes unacceptable or when one person is becoming the object of > abuse. > > A simple warning the first time, either vocally or in the chat, should be > enough -- and make sure you do it in a matter-of-fact way, acknowledging > that both you and they know there's been a breach of taste or consideration. > > Those teachers who make too big a deal, or over-react, will be rewarded with > more testing, as it has now become a game. > > In the rare cases where a student didn't "get it" the first time and > insisted on being over the line, I've told them simply that a continuation > of their behavior will get them out kicked out of class. > > Usually, right at the start of the semester, students will test the limits. > Be very quick and absolute -- it won't be tolerated, period. Just say it or > write it simply and with no show of emotion, and then move on with the > conversation. > > In almost all cases, everyone will be relieved that you've established > parameters. > > Trent > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "day michael" > To: ; > Sent: Wednesday, April 26, 2000 11:14 AM > Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] teachingcomp: avoiding hard questions? > > > real_name > > > > Chris, I know Trent will jump in on this one, but Sharon Cogdill > > has an excellent chapter on dealing with flaming and other > > disruptive student behaviors in networked writing classrooms, > > now available in _The Online Writing Classroom_. You can find > > more information about that text in the Resources section of > > our featured web, http://www.engl.niu.edu/tcomp/. > > > > Best, > > > > Michael > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition From teaching_composition-admin Thu Apr 27 10:29:26 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27869 for ; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:29:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (webct167.webct.com [140.239.69.167]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id 2WFYR0MF; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 11:45:05 -0400 Message-ID: <003d01bfb05d$759f8960$a745ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: "teachingcomp" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] An MIT moment Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 11:30:04 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_003A_01BFB03B.EE7D2080" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BFB03B.EE7D2080 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi, all -- Yesterday, we had a demo of "Cultura," a grant project in the foreign = languages department at MIT. I think what they've done is a valuable = model for working online, whether you and your students are in the same = room or at a distance. The students involved are 2nd year French students at MIT and students = at a similar school in France. The course is a cultural studies course. = Their first task is to connect to the Web-based Cultura program, and do = some word association work, using their native language. The same 20 or = 30 words are used for both the American and French students. Then, = after they've completed this task, the two lists of word associations = are placed on the Web in proximity. The students then have a forum = discussion about the differences. They continue to write in their own = native language -- but of course the French students can read English = and the American students can read French. So they read both languages = in the forum but write in their native language. Then, second stage, they do sentence completion exercises with a similar = pattern as with the words -- and follow with a forum discussion. Third, they react to a culturally significant scenario (we focused on a = mother slapping her child during the demo and how the students would = react). What is fascinating to me about this is how the "textbook" in this class = is a combination of Web-based questionnaires, the mechanisms supporting = useful manipulation of responses, the forum tool, and the writing = generated by the students. =20 It's a nice model of how an online class can -- in a sense -- exist = within a text; how the class itself becomes a text. It's also a nice = model, I think, of the kind of "textbook" publishers should provide: = mechanisms to support and prompt the evolving class-text within which = we'll all teach and learn. Pretty neat, eh? Trent _________________ Trent Batson, Ph.D., Consultant WebCT Two Corporation Way Peabody, MA 01960 978-538-0036 401-225-5009 (cell) 978-538-0309 (fax) www.webct.com ------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BFB03B.EE7D2080 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi, all --
 
Yesterday, we had a demo of "Cultura," = a grant=20 project in the foreign languages department at MIT.  I think what = they've=20 done is a valuable model for working online, whether you and your = students are=20 in the same room or at a distance.
 
The students involved are 2nd year = French students=20 at MIT and students at a similar school in France.  The course is a = cultural studies course. Their first task is to connect to the = Web-based=20 Cultura program, and do some word association work, using their native=20 language.  The same 20 or 30 words are used for both the American = and=20 French students.  Then, after they've completed this task, the two = lists of=20 word associations are placed on the Web in proximity.  The students = then=20 have a forum discussion about the differences.  They continue to = write in=20 their own native language -- but of course the French students can read = English=20 and the American students can read French.  So they read both = languages in=20 the forum but write in their native language.
 
Then, second stage, they do sentence = completion=20 exercises with a similar pattern as with the words -- and follow with a = forum=20 discussion.
 
Third, they react to a culturally = significant=20 scenario (we focused on a mother slapping her child during the demo and = how the=20 students would react).
 
What is fascinating to me about this is = how the=20 "textbook" in this class is a combination of Web-based = questionnaires, the=20 mechanisms supporting useful manipulation of responses, the forum tool, = and the=20 writing generated by the students. 
 
It's a nice model of how an online = class can -- in=20 a sense -- exist within a text; how the class itself becomes a = text.  It's=20 also a nice model, I think, of the kind of "textbook" publishers should=20 provide:  mechanisms to support and prompt the evolving class-text = within=20 which we'll all teach and learn.
 
Pretty neat, eh?
 
Trent

_________________
Trent Batson,=20 Ph.D.,
Consultant
WebCT
Two Corporation Way
Peabody, MA=20 01960
 
978-538-0036
401-225-5009 = (cell)
978-538-0309=20 (fax)
www.webct.com
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_003A_01BFB03B.EE7D2080-- From teaching_composition-admin Thu Apr 27 12:35:56 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA00775 for ; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 12:35:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (webct167.webct.com [140.239.69.167]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id 2WFYSAZ9; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 13:51:36 -0400 Message-ID: <00e301bfb06f$2158f640$a745ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: "teachingcomp" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] You all grading papers? Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 13:36:33 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_00E0_01BFB04D.9A368D60" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_00E0_01BFB04D.9A368D60 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I just stepped into the "teachingcomp" room and found no one here. My = footsteps echo off the walls. =20 I picture in my mind all 200 + of you out there in your offices with = stacks of un-read student papers. =20 Wouldn't you rather chat with us? Trent _________________ Trent Batson, Ph.D., Consultant WebCT Two Corporation Way Peabody, MA 01960 978-538-0036 401-225-5009 (cell) 978-538-0309 (fax) www.webct.com ------=_NextPart_000_00E0_01BFB04D.9A368D60 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
I just stepped into the "teachingcomp" = room and=20 found no one here.  My footsteps echo off the walls.  =
 
I picture in my mind all 200 + of you = out there in=20 your offices with stacks of un-read student papers. 
 
Wouldn't you rather chat with = us?
 
Trent

_________________
Trent Batson,=20 Ph.D.,
Consultant
WebCT
Two Corporation Way
Peabody, MA=20 01960
 
978-538-0036
401-225-5009 = (cell)
978-538-0309=20 (fax)
www.webct.com
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_00E0_01BFB04D.9A368D60-- From teaching_composition-admin Thu Apr 27 15:38:58 2000 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA04555 for ; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 15:38:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from tb0mxd1@localhost) by corn.cso.niu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id PAA11824; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 15:38:24 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 15:38:24 -0500 (CDT) From: day michael Message-Id: <200004272038.PAA11824@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: Trent.Batson@webct.com, teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] You all grading papers? Yes, you nailed it Trent; I'm here, but furiously trying to make comments on essays that will help students revise one last time! I wish it weren't that time of the year, but it is, and it is exhausting. Glad we got rid of that funny Real_Name message, and thanks for letting us hear about Cultura! Could there be any application of that sort of software in our writing classes? Thanks to you and Eric for your great practical advice on dealing with disruptive behavior in the networked classroom. I like both approaches. Like Eric, I think we all need to discuss with students the changed social dynamics of the online classroom early in the semester, and have them come up with possible guidelines. But like Trent, I am not afraid to calmly tell a student when a line has been crossed. Now, back to evaluating papers! Michael From teaching_composition-admin Thu Apr 27 17:36:33 2000 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (tb0mxd1@corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA07214 for ; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:36:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from tb0mxd1@localhost) by corn.cso.niu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id RAA19652; Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:36:29 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 17:36:29 -0500 (CDT) From: day michael Message-Id: <200004272236.RAA19652@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: Trent.Batson@webct.com, teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] assessment of teaching in networked classroom Another question just occurred to me, of course while sitting here trying to find the perfect comment for a student paper. An issue that keeps coming up at many of the schools I've taught at and visited concerns assessment. What measures can we put into place to assess the changes we are making by teaching in the networked writing classroom? Have any of you heard of Flashlight, the Teaching and Learning With Technology Group's instrument for assessing technology in teaching? You can find out more at http://www.tltgroup.org/programs/flashlight.html. I would like to hear from schools and faculty that have worked with flashlight. On another note, Judi Kirkpatrick and the folks at Kapi'olani Community College in Honolulu have put together a nice set of sample surveys for the webbed classroom, which you can find at http://leahi.kcc.hawaii.edu/~kirkpatr/assessment/. What other methods do you use to assess and evaluate the effectiveness of the technological components of your writing classes? Michael From teaching_composition-admin Sat Apr 29 11:20:19 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (law-f125.hotmail.com [209.185.131.188]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA03454 for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:20:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 44627 invoked by uid 0); 29 Apr 2000 16:19:50 -0000 Message-ID: <20000429161950.44626.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 198.4.159.5 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 09:19:50 PDT X-Originating-IP: [198.4.159.5] From: "Suzanne Drapeau" To: Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: cultura Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 16:19:50 GMT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi All: My name is Suzanne Drapeau, and I teach comp at Oakland University. I'm a first time writer on this list, but I've been following the conversation. The stack of papers on my desk seemed the perfect excuse to chime in. I can see similar applications in a composition class as in the MIT French class. In my composition sections, I frequently address the theme of American Identity or Children in America, and it would be instructive for the students at my University, which is located in Oakland County, Michigan, to see how others live in our country. A connection with students in composition in the south, west, or east of the country would be incredibly instructive. Question: How do you all balance your time with final papers? Is there any hope of eliminating the stress or must I accept this as a job hazard this time of year? ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From teaching_composition-admin Sat Apr 29 12:11:59 2000 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (tb0mxd1@corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA04641 for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:11:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from tb0mxd1@localhost) by corn.cso.niu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id MAA18996; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:12:00 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 12:12:00 -0500 (CDT) From: day michael Message-Id: <200004291712.MAA18996@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com, smd126@hotmail.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Re: cultura Hi Suzanne and thanks for joining our conversation, even at this busy time of the year! I think your question is a good one, especially if we add in the question of how one also handles the electronic load: that is, when students are also e-mailing in papers and requests. There used to be an NCTE publication, _How to Handle the Paper Load_; does anyone else remember this? That has some good strategies, but other than that I can share with you some of my coping strategies, and hope that others will chime in. First, I make extensive use of peer review, so that I may not have to look at every draft (my students will do as many as four drafts of some papers) of every papers. Second, I make it clear in the assignment prompt what I am looking for and evaluating in a particular draft of an assignment. That way I don't have to check *every* aspect of every paper. On top of that, there are a few kinds of writing, such as journal entries, class reflections, and class discussion group posts that I don't grade and evaluate on a micro level at all. I just check to see that the student has been writing, engaging with ideas, and sharing thoughts and suggestions with classmates. Third, the multiple draft system makes it easier for me to check for progress when I get later drafts of a paper. I require earlier drafts with my comments to be turned in with current drafts, and look at both of them together to assess improvement. Finally, toward the end of semester I cancel a week of classes and meet with each student for 15-30 minutes to talk over the student's portfolio in preparation. This allows me to give myself a deadline for completion of a manageable number of papers a day, assuming that I want to have them commented for the students coming in that day. I think I've said enough; how do others balance the load? Best, Michael From teaching_composition-admin Sat Apr 29 13:29:58 2000 Received: from beach.silcom.com (beach.silcom.com [199.201.128.19]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA06001 for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 13:29:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from www (pm6-3.sba1.avtel.net [207.71.222.53]) by beach.silcom.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 7A05D1452E0 for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:29:44 -0700 (PDT) From: "Chris Johnston" To: Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] Re: cultura Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 11:28:39 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: <200004291712.MAA18996@corn.cso.niu.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 > I think I've said enough; how do others balance the load? Everthing you said, Michael. I've also started writing less comments on final final papers (end of the semester) since most of these never make it back to students (they don't come back to get them from me), and I can read and assess a paper fairly quickly if I'm not stopping to write alot of comments. I realize that some people may not feel comfortable with this approach, so I'm interested to hear what others do. Chris Johnston From teaching_composition-admin Sat Apr 29 17:29:55 2000 Received: from mailhub.iastate.edu (mailhub.iastate.edu [129.186.1.102]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA10915 for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 17:29:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cmohrb (dial70.ppp.iastate.edu [129.186.97.70]) by mailhub.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA24767 for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 17:29:54 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000429172108.009a6a10@cmohrb.mail.iastate.edu> X-Sender: cmohrb@cmohrb.mail.iastate.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 17:30:00 -0500 To: Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com From: Carol A Mohrbacher Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Balancing the load Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed One thing that works for me is a check list of items that I look for in papers from content issues to surface errors. An example is under content. It is a line that reads: Focus: focused throughout___ unfocused in 1 or 2 spots___ loses focus throughout___ There are 37 items on my list. Every year, I had more and the area on the bottom titled, "Comments," gets smaller. Because the end of a semester is overwhelming with my own work and my students' submissions, I use this sheet only on the large project. I also warn my students ahead of time that there will be very few, if any, comments on their papers. Although this may seem like an "assembly line" approach, it helps alleviate the end-of-the-semester pressure. Carol Carol Mohrbacher 459 Ross Hall Iowa State University Ames, Iowa Office: 515 294-9097 Savoir est pouvoir From teaching_composition-admin Sat Apr 29 21:19:33 2000 Received: from garnet.acns.fsu.edu (gmhub.acns.fsu.edu [146.201.2.30]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA15566 for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:19:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from garnet1.acns.fsu.edu (garnet1-fi.acns.fsu.edu [192.168.197.1]) by garnet.acns.fsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA121508 for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:19:33 -0400 Received: from fsu (dial1030.acns.fsu.edu [146.201.36.166]) by garnet1.acns.fsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA144750 for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:19:32 -0400 Message-ID: <003c01bfb24a$fd5cbaa0$a624c992@edu.fsu.edu> Reply-To: "Charlie Lowe" From: "Charlie Lowe" To: References: Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Re: cultura Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 22:22:52 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 I like and use the checksheet idea (although mine is not as near as long as Carol's), and use it for large assignments such as the research paper. On the other hand, for the last paper sequence, I avoid commenting altogether on the final copy. On earlier drafts in the sequence, I only respond to their process memos. The problems which they feel they are having with their drafts becomes important, instead of what my overly prolific pen likes to do to their drafts. As for the final copy, I always ask my second semester freshmen how many of them picked up their final papers from their first semester class. Usually, none or one of the students raises their hand. On rare occasions, it will be 2 or 3 out of a class of 20-25. I then tell them that while I will not comment on their drafts during grading, I would happily conference with them about the final copy at the beginning of the next semester. And usually only one or two come back to pick up drafts. This semester, however, I have already sent out final grades (we finished this week) to those students who emailed me for the grade on their final drafts. Meanwhile, to my surprise, I have been email conferencing about final drafts with three of them in meaningful exchanges. I may encourage this more from now on (it just sort of happened this way) as an option for those who really want feedback enough to inquire once the grade has been sent, since at least I am sure that my time is not being wasted on those who could care less. Charlie Lowe cel4145@garnet.acns.fsu.edu From teaching_composition-admin Sat Apr 29 21:50:22 2000 Received: from mailhub.iastate.edu (mailhub.iastate.edu [129.186.1.102]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA15887 for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:50:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from portal (pollux.truserve.com [208.142.209.106]) by mailhub.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA01091 for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:50:17 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000429214404.009bb720@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu> X-Sender: ewardle@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 21:50:19 -0500 To: From: Elizabeth A Wardle Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Responding to student papers In-Reply-To: <003c01bfb24a$fd5cbaa0$a624c992@edu.fsu.edu> References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed For time saving devices, here's a new one I've tried this semester. I do portfolio grading, rather than grading individual papers (which is something maybe we can talk about later). This does not require that I have to write comments on drafts to "justify" grades, so I have a little more freedom during the semester on how to respond. I have come to realize more and more how ineffective written remarks are--they take me forever and half the time students don't understand what I mean anyway. So this semester I cancelled class on the day I had students turn in a draft to me. Then, instead of writing on the drafts, I had 15 minute conferences with each of them, and took notes as we talked, which I then gave to them. I did not see their papers until we sat down in conference. While this required me to think on my feet, it also had numerous benefits: 1) I took no papers home 2) We could talk immediately if one of us did not understand the other's comments 3) they were more likely to talk to me about their papers at later draft stages since they'd already gotten comfortable with this. I love this new system and my students said they like it, too--a lot more than written comments. Elizabeth ------------------------------ Elizabeth A. Wardle Doctoral Program in Rhetoric & Professional Communication Iowa State University of Science & Technology http://www.stuorg.iastate.edu/phorum/ www.public.iastate.edu/~ewardle "Have no hard feelings toward anyone who has not shown you enmity, do not fight with anyone who does not oppose you." ~The Art of War From teaching_composition-admin Sun Apr 30 20:49:52 2000 Received: from mail.matrix.msu.edu (mail.matrix.msu.edu [35.8.2.176]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA16023 for ; Sun, 30 Apr 2000 20:49:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 1cust138.tnt21.det3.da.uu.net (Default) [63.29.76.138] by mail.matrix.msu.edu with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 12m5LK-0000jO-00; Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:49:50 -0400 From: "Dean Rehberger" To: Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] Responding to student papers Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 21:51:05 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000429214404.009bb720@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu> X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal I have to agree with Elizabeth that changing to portfolio grading was the best thing I ever did. It tends to cut responding time in half since I can take a set of drafts and simply add to comments by students and the writer--often much is not needed since they have hit many of the important areas. (The key here of course is to have the students write responses and reflections--it is really great when the only comment you need is "excellent work, what you have said is what you need to do with this paper). Although I often write more, since I don't need to worry about the step of "grading" I find it takes a lot less time. Also, the students tend to actually use the comments, reflections, and workshops in their revisions. Dean Rehberger Associate Director of Matrix Associate Professor Michigan State University 310 Auditorium East Lansing, MI 48824-1120 rehberge@mail.matrix.msu.edu matrix.msu.edu/rehberger wk: (517) 353-4969 fax: (517) 355-8363 hm: (517) 347-7372 From teaching_composition-admin Sat Apr 29 14:37:32 2000 Received: from iris.tamucc.edu (iris.tamucc.edu [165.95.8.19]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA07337 for ; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 14:37:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gblalock (rap035.tamucc.edu [165.95.5.41]) by iris.tamucc.edu; Sat, 29 Apr 2000 14:32:39 -0500 Message-ID: <002301bfb213$3c646b40$29055fa5@gblalock> From: "Glenn Blalock" To: References: Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Paper Load (was cultura) Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000 14:43:46 -0500 X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2014.211 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2014.211 I write NO comments on final pieces. I tell students that I will providethem with all the response they can stand, if they schedule a conference with me and / or if they give me a self-addressed, stamped envelope. Most semesters, few folks return for more feedback. HOwever, I provide MUCH feedback on work in progress, from me and from peers through structured sharing workshops. In addition, for each piece we work on, students and I develop a set of assignment specific evaluation criteria that help us understand what an effective piece will do, less effective, oops, etc. One other thought: I provide "suggested" due dates for final pieces, but let students develop their own schedules (with my approval). So I rarely have a whole class worth of writing to deal with at one time, though I am always responding to writers at various stages of completion. Somehow, the steady flow of responding has been better for me than the several frantic periods each semester when I'm surrounded by writing that needs my attention. I also seem to have more face-to-face conversations about writing, too, using this approach. And in online environments, my interactions seem more "personal" because most students are proceeding at individual paces. Glenn Blalock From teaching_composition-admin Mon May 1 17:14:44 2000 Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA15813 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 17:14:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from brezina (dialup-209.245.78.159.LosAngeles1.Level3.net [209.245.78.159]) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA26551 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 15:14:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jennifer Brezina" To: Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Grading Date: Mon, 1 May 2000 15:12:59 -0700 Message-ID: <000601bfb3ba$68efd3e0$9f4ef5d1@brezina> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 I just tried a new shortcut with grading yesterday and it seems to be working (so far at least), so I thought I'd share it. I used the Macros function on Word to create a set of master comments that covered some of the common areas that I usually remark on, such as MLA style, overall development, clarity of thesis, etc. For those who haven't used macros before, the general idea is that you set the program to record a series of keystrokes (like a sentence or two), then, the next time you want to use that sentence, you just press one key, and the whole recorded segment appears. Then I started a new file in Word (with the students' names and spaces for "Grade" and "Comments") and used the macros to choose the appropriate comments for each essay. Of course, I also made a few marginal comments as I was reading and individualized the typed comments as I was going along. But it really did help to have a base to start with (especially since I'm not the swiftest typist -- and you don't even want to know about my handwriting!). I then copied the file onto the class website (where each student has a private grade book), but it could also be printed out and cut into individual sections for distribution. I still have mixed feelings about this kind of "assembly line" approach to grading, but it really did save time, and each student received a 6-8 sentence comment (as well as the marginal ones) on their writing. Jennifer Brezina UC Riverside From teaching_composition-admin Mon May 1 20:37:48 2000 Received: from inav.net (IDENT:qmailr@soli.inav.net [199.120.107.103]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id UAA19602 for ; Mon, 1 May 2000 20:37:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 27192 invoked from network); 2 May 2000 01:37:37 -0000 Received: from dip204.inav.net (HELO jmcclure.inav.net) (205.160.208.74) by soli.inav.net with SMTP; 2 May 2000 01:37:37 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000501203731.007fc9e0@soli.inav.net> X-Sender: jmcclure@soli.inav.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Mon, 01 May 2000 20:37:31 -0500 To: "Jennifer Brezina" , From: "J.L. McClure" Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Grading In-Reply-To: <000601bfb3ba$68efd3e0$9f4ef5d1@brezina> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm not endorsing this, but a colleague of mine has been using "TypeItIn," a program that allows you to set up "macros" that can be inserted into any text (not just Word, but e-mail, etc.). There's both a professional and free version. Again, I haven't used it (am going to look at it more closely this summer), but the address is: http://www.softseek.com/Utilities/Keyboard_Mouse_Macros_and_Batch_Processing /Review_18671_index.html At 03:12 PM 05/01/2000 -0700, Jennifer Brezina wrote: >I just tried a new shortcut with grading yesterday and it seems to be >working (so far at least), so I thought I'd share it. > >I used the Macros function on Word to create a set of master comments that >covered some of the common areas that I usually remark on, such as MLA >style, overall development, clarity of thesis, etc. For those who haven't >used macros before, the general idea is that you set the program to record a >series of keystrokes (like a sentence or two), then, the next time you want >to use that sentence, you just press one key, and the whole recorded segment >appears. > >Then I started a new file in Word (with the students' names and spaces for >"Grade" and "Comments") and used the macros to choose the appropriate >comments for each essay. Of course, I also made a few marginal comments as I >was reading and individualized the typed comments as I was going along. But >it really did help to have a base to start with (especially since I'm not >the swiftest typist -- and you don't even want to know about my >handwriting!). > >I then copied the file onto the class website (where each student has a >private grade book), but it could also be printed out and cut into >individual sections for distribution. > >I still have mixed feelings about this kind of "assembly line" approach to >grading, but it really did save time, and each student received a 6-8 >sentence comment (as well as the marginal ones) on their writing. > >Jennifer Brezina >UC Riverside > > >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > > J.L. McClure (319)398-5411, ext. 5837 English Department jmcclure@soli.inav.net Kirkwood Community College jmcclur@kirkwood.cc.ia.us 6301 Kirkwood Blvd. SW http://soli.inav.net/~jmcclure Cedar Rapids IA 52406 From teaching_composition-admin Tue May 2 15:13:53 2000 Received: from homer.bethel.edu (IDENT:root@homer.acs.bethel.edu [140.88.2.4]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA16127 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 15:13:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bethel.edu (d24-2.dhcp.bethel.edu [140.88.24.2]) by homer.bethel.edu (8.9.0/8.9.0) with ESMTP id PAA01016 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 15:13:47 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <390F291E.A700DD18@bethel.edu> Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 14:14:57 -0500 From: Joann Yost Reply-To: yosjoa@bethel.edu Organization: Bethel College X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.08 (Macintosh; I; PPC) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Responding to student papers [Teaching_Composition] Responding to student papers [Teaching_Composition] Responding to student papers [Teaching_Composition] Responding to student papers [Teaching_Composition] Responding to student papers [Teaching_Composition] Responding to student papers [Teaching_Composition] Responding to student papers [Teaching_Composition] Responding to student papers [Teaching_Composition] Responding to student papers Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This topic certainly got a flurry of responses and I couldn't help but jump in. I concur with those who are conferencing with students about their drafts that the conferences are valuable for the students and for me. The students get the individual feedback which is so important in a course where skills vary. They also get a chance to get to know a professor more personally, a relationship which studies on retention rates indicate is a key factor for why students do or do not return to college at the end of a term. I get to keep in touch with what the students need to know or don't need to know in order to guide my presentations to the large group. I can also reinforce to students how, as a group, we do or do not need to spend time on a particular topic. I get to know students, too, which I like as much as they do. The one-on-one interaction enhances the sense of community when we return to our large group meetings. This term, after 12 years of teaching college-level composition, I expanded my conferencing time. Two weeks out of the term I cancel classes and meet with each student in order to discuss drafts. A third class day I hold optional conferences, though I'm considering canceling classes a third week to include another set of required conferences. Donald Murray used to write and speak about teaching composition by only holding individual conferences. (I also mix in one or two peer conference groups per paper.) I do write comments and use a checklist to evaluate the final drafts accept for the last paper which I only comment on briefly for the same reasons others mentioned. I'll pose two sets of questions: I am intrigued by Elizabeth's experience of doing on the spot evaluations of papers during individual conference times. The time investment on my part would be about the same. Her comments about students understanding my feedback hit the mark. 1. What are other experiences people have had doing the on the spot evaluation during individual conferences with students? Is there research that addresses the effectiveness of this form of evaluation? 2. What are the pros and cons of going toward more conferences and less large group time? How much conferencing is too much? Joann Ludeman Yost Adjunct Assistant Professor English and General Studies 3900 Bethel Drive St. Paul, Minnesota 55112 651.635.8513 yosjoa@bethel.edu From teaching_composition-admin Tue May 2 16:54:34 2000 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (tb0mxd1@corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA17877 for ; Tue, 2 May 2000 16:54:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from tb0mxd1@localhost) by corn.cso.niu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id QAA08991 for teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com; Tue, 2 May 2000 16:54:34 -0500 (CDT) Date: Tue, 2 May 2000 16:54:34 -0500 (CDT) From: day michael Message-Id: <200005022154.QAA08991@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Responding to student papers Joann, how did you get so many words into the subject line of you post? Just kidding; maybe the list processor did that. Anyway, I am really happy that we've been able to touch upon a useful subject, how to handle the paper load, by way of a wrap-up to my two weeks facilitating discussion on Teaching_Composition. It's an odd coincidence that I also am just finishing up a marathon week of meeting every comp student for 20-30 minutes each to talk over revisions for the final portfolios. So much more can be done in these conferences than my poor attempts to direct revision with marginal comments. However, I am not sure that I could do a very thorough job with spot-checking student papers in conferences. Either I would have to spend a lot of time reading with students there, or I would not have time to read through all of the paper in a 20-30 minute conference. A question for those of you who do this: Do you read through the paper at all before the student comes in, or is it a "cold" reading? I'm remembering the Don Murray method, and think that he actually put that into effect at U of NH, where they do (or did) all FYcomp classes by tutorial, not classes meeting together. Have any of you tried that approach? I too am thinking of moving to at least two required conference weeks during a regular semester. I really like the results of these conferences. I'm glad someone mentioned grading by using macros or "boilerplate" texts that can be pasted in to student papers or embedded as comments in the text using the Insert Comment feature. It's true that this could save some writing, and I tried using PROSE, an early version of the macro commenting feature, in the early 90s. I found that I just got tired of commenting on papers on screen. Does anyone else have experiences with commenting on screen that they want to report? Finally, let me thank this wonderful group for letting me facilitate two weeks of discussion. I know that I have been busy and not had enough time to be thorough, but I have enjoyed it and learned an immense amount. Please email me if you have further questions or just want to keep in touch! Best, Michael From teaching_composition-admin Wed May 3 10:49:41 2000 Received: from tc.cc.va.us (vbms.tc.cc.va.us [164.106.214.23]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA13251 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 10:49:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from tcreisd ([164.106.214.160]) by tc.cc.va.us; Wed, 03 May 2000 11:55:54 -0400 Message-Id: <4.1.20000503115450.0096d230@164.106.214.23> X-Sender: 12294.dreiss@mail.wordsworth2.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 11:55:50 -0400 To: day michael , teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com From: Donna Reiss Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Responding to student papers In-Reply-To: <200005022154.QAA08991@corn.cso.niu.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello, everybody, I've been lurking on this discussion and want to thank Michael and all the contributors for the good discussion and good ideas. Donna - Donna Reiss TCC Email Associate Professor, English-Humanities http://onlinelearning.tc.cc.va.us/faculty/tcreisd/ Tidewater Community College, 1700 College Crescent, Virginia Beach, VA 23456 phone 757-321-7364 fax 757-427-0327 From teaching_composition-admin Wed May 3 13:47:30 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA17061 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 13:47:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (webct170.webct.com [140.239.69.170]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id KDKAMWX1; Wed, 3 May 2000 15:03:00 -0400 Message-ID: <017b01bfb530$1c4058e0$aa45ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: "teachingcomp" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Thanks to Michael Day and Welcome Gail Hapke Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 14:48:02 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0178_01BFB50E.95259120" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0178_01BFB50E.95259120 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here I am three days late in introducing our new discussion leader, Gail = Hapke, Assistant to the Director, Academic Writing Program, University = of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. Her material on plagiarism can be found at = http://www.mhhe.com/socscience/english/tc/ It looks like my being tardy (I was launching a new moderator training = effort and forgot which week it was) served a purpose in allowing a good = conversation to proceed. Michael was gracious enough to stick around a = few days after his 2 weeks were over. Thanks, Michael. And, welcome, Gail. And, to all the rest of you, hope you survived the semester. Trent _________________ Trent Batson, Ph.D., Consultant WebCT Two Corporation Way Peabody, MA 01960 978-538-0036 401-225-5009 (cell) 978-538-0309 (fax) www.webct.com ------=_NextPart_000_0178_01BFB50E.95259120 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Here I am three days late in = introducing our new=20 discussion leader, Gail Hapke, Assistant to the Director, Academic = Writing=20 Program, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign.
 
Her material on plagiarism can be found = at http://www.mhhe.com/s= ocscience/english/tc/
 
It looks like my being tardy (I was = launching a new=20 moderator training effort and forgot which week it was) served a purpose = in=20 allowing a good conversation to proceed.  Michael was gracious = enough to=20 stick around a few days after his 2 weeks were over.
 
Thanks, Michael.
 
And, welcome, Gail.
 
And, to all the rest of you, hope you = survived the=20 semester.
 
Trent

_________________
Trent Batson,=20 Ph.D.,
Consultant
WebCT
Two Corporation Way
Peabody, MA=20 01960
 
978-538-0036
401-225-5009 = (cell)
978-538-0309=20 (fax)
www.webct.com
 
 
------=_NextPart_000_0178_01BFB50E.95259120-- From teaching_composition-admin Wed May 3 15:37:25 2000 Received: from staff1.cso.uiuc.edu (hapke@staff1.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.59]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA19668 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 15:37:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost by staff1.cso.uiuc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA13411; Wed, 3 May 2000 15:37:18 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: staff1.cso.uiuc.edu: hapke owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 15:37:18 -0500 (CDT) From: gail hapke X-Sender: hapke@staff1.cso.uiuc.edu To: Trent Batson cc: teachingcomp Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Thanks to Michael Day and Welcome Gail Hapke In-Reply-To: <017b01bfb530$1c4058e0$aa45ef8c@ULT> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks Trent! This is certainly a great time of year to begin a discussion of plagiarism in the first-year comp class, with tens of thousands of research papers coming due even as we (virtually) speak. I wonder how many of our subscribers have already seen the first signs of summer....the student disappearing from class for two weeks...The perfect off-topic paper showing up in the mailbox unannounced.....The faint whiff of magazine ink wafting up from a catchy introduction....the British spellings..... the nonexistent sources....the furtive looks...the roommate's name on the top of page 10... Maybe we could start out our discussion by sharing some of our own adventures in plagiarism detection, either past or present, just so we can find out if we're all on the same page (as it were). Then maybe we can segue into a discussion of what the heck plagiarism is anyway. Salutations, Gail Gail Hapke Assistant to the Director Academic Writing Program University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 294 English Building 608 South Wright Street Urbana IL 61801 217-244-1458 On Wed, 3 May 2000, Trent Batson wrote: > Here I am three days late in introducing our new discussion leader, Gail Hapke, Assistant to the Director, Academic Writing Program, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. > > Her material on plagiarism can be found at http://www.mhhe.com/socscience/english/tc/ > > It looks like my being tardy (I was launching a new moderator training effort and forgot which week it was) served a purpose in allowing a good conversation to proceed. Michael was gracious enough to stick around a few days after his 2 weeks were over. > > Thanks, Michael. > > And, welcome, Gail. > > And, to all the rest of you, hope you survived the semester. > > Trent > > > _________________ > Trent Batson, Ph.D., > Consultant > WebCT > Two Corporation Way > Peabody, MA 01960 > > 978-538-0036 > 401-225-5009 (cell) > 978-538-0309 (fax) > www.webct.com > > > From teaching_composition-admin Wed May 3 16:01:04 2000 Received: from staff1.cso.uiuc.edu (hapke@staff1.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.59]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA19981 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 16:01:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost by staff1.cso.uiuc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA24830 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 16:01:02 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: staff1.cso.uiuc.edu: hapke owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 16:01:02 -0500 (CDT) From: gail hapke X-Sender: hapke@staff1.cso.uiuc.edu To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Plagiarism Season.... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Thanks Trent! This is certainly a great time of year to begin a discussion of plagiarism in the first-year comp class, with tens of thousands of research papers coming due even as we (virtually) speak. I wonder how many of our subscribers have already seen the first signs of summer....the student disappearing from class for two weeks...The perfect off-topic paper showing up in the mailbox unannounced.....The faint whiff of magazine ink wafting up from a catchy introduction....the British spellings..... the nonexistent sources....the furtive looks...the roommate's name on the top of page 10... Maybe we could start out our discussion by sharing some of our own adventures in plagiarism detection, either past or present, just so we can find out if we're all on the same page (as it were). Then maybe we can segue into a discussion of what the heck plagiarism is anyway. Salutations, Gail Gail Hapke Assistant to the Director Academic Writing Program University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 294 English Building 608 South Wright Street Urbana IL 61801 217-244-1458 On Wed, 3 May 2000, Trent Batson wrote: > Here I am three days late in introducing our new discussion leader, Gail Hapke, Assistant to the Director, Academic Writing Program, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. > > Her material on plagiarism can be found at http://www.mhhe.com/socscience/english/tc/ > > It looks like my being tardy (I was launching a new moderator training effort and forgot which week it was) served a purpose in allowing a good conversation to proceed. Michael was gracious enough to stick around a few days after his 2 weeks were over. > > Thanks, Michael. > > And, welcome, Gail. > > And, to all the rest of you, hope you survived the semester. > > Trent > > > _________________ > Trent Batson, Ph.D., > Consultant > WebCT > Two Corporation Way > Peabody, MA 01960 > > 978-538-0036 > 401-225-5009 (cell) > 978-538-0309 (fax) > www.webct.com > > > From teaching_composition-admin Wed May 3 16:22:02 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA21092 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 16:22:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (webct170.webct.com [140.239.69.170]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id KDKAMYWD; Wed, 3 May 2000 17:37:35 -0400 Message-ID: <028301bfb545$b32b6640$aa45ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: "teachingcomp" References: Subject: [Teaching_Composition] "That whiff of magazine ink" Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 17:22:34 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Gail: I love that "faint whiff of magazine ink wafting up from a catchy introduction." Last fall, at Seton Hall, I got a paper that had that professional writer repulsive smoothness all over it; I simply emailed the student and said, "come on, Chris [not real name], do you think I'm stupid?" He sent me his own paper within a couple of hours. No other comment. Trent ----- Original Message ----- From: "gail hapke" To: "Trent Batson" Cc: "teachingcomp" Sent: Wednesday, May 03, 2000 4:37 PM Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Thanks to Michael Day and Welcome GailHapke > Thanks Trent! This is certainly a great time of year to begin a discussion > of plagiarism in the first-year comp class, with tens of thousands of > research papers coming due even as we (virtually) speak. I wonder how many > of our subscribers have already seen the first signs of summer....the > student disappearing from class for two weeks...The perfect off-topic > paper showing up in the mailbox unannounced.....The faint whiff of > magazine ink wafting up from a catchy introduction....the British spellings..... > the nonexistent sources....the furtive looks...the roommate's name on > the top of page 10... > > Maybe we could start out our discussion by sharing some of our own > adventures in plagiarism detection, either past or present, just so we > can find out if we're all on the same page (as it were). > > Then maybe we can segue into a discussion of what the heck plagiarism is > anyway. > > Salutations, > > Gail > > > Gail Hapke > Assistant to the Director > Academic Writing Program > University of Illinois > at Urbana-Champaign > > 294 English Building > 608 South Wright Street > Urbana IL 61801 > 217-244-1458 > > On Wed, 3 May 2000, Trent Batson wrote: > > > Here I am three days late in introducing our new discussion leader, Gail Hapke, Assistant to the Director, Academic Writing Program, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. > > > > Her material on plagiarism can be found at http://www.mhhe.com/socscience/english/tc/ > > > > It looks like my being tardy (I was launching a new moderator training effort and forgot which week it was) served a purpose in allowing a good conversation to proceed. Michael was gracious enough to stick around a few days after his 2 weeks were over. > > > > Thanks, Michael. > > > > And, welcome, Gail. > > > > And, to all the rest of you, hope you survived the semester. > > > > Trent > > > > > > _________________ > > Trent Batson, Ph.D., > > Consultant > > WebCT > > Two Corporation Way > > Peabody, MA 01960 > > > > 978-538-0036 > > 401-225-5009 (cell) > > 978-538-0309 (fax) > > www.webct.com > > > > > > From teaching_composition-admin Wed May 3 16:55:48 2000 Received: from inav.net (IDENT:qmailr@soli.inav.net [199.120.107.103]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA21467 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 16:55:47 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 4907 invoked from network); 3 May 2000 21:55:41 -0000 Received: from dip202.inav.net (HELO jmcclure.inav.net) (205.160.208.72) by soli.inav.net with SMTP; 3 May 2000 21:55:41 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.6.32.20000503165532.007fb8b0@soli.inav.net> X-Sender: jmcclure@soli.inav.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.6 (32) Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 16:55:32 -0500 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com From: "J.L. McClure" Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Thanks to Michael Day and Welcome Gail Hapke In-Reply-To: References: <017b01bfb530$1c4058e0$aa45ef8c@ULT> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 03:37 PM 05/03/2000 -0500, you wrote: >Maybe we could start out our discussion by sharing some of our own >adventures in plagiarism detection, either past or present, just so we >can find out if we're all on the same page (as it were). Here's a real-life experience of mine from 20 years ago when I was a grad assisstant at the U of Iowa. See how many mistakes you can spot that I made: An early assignment was to write a short informative essay about a topic that the readers (the class) would find interesting. (We were focusing on the various means of engaging interest.) I gave some possible general topics -- the origin of a holiday, the invention of something common, how something is made, etc. I suggested going to the library to look for a topic and find information about it (we would be getting into research later in the semester), but there was no need to cite that information (because what they should find for the purposes of this assignment should be "common knowledge"), nor did they need to include a Works Consulted page (they weren't required to consult sources if they didn't need to). As I read the student papers that came in, I discovered two papers that were exactly -- word for word -- the same. Clearly both writers had found the same source and just copied it. Pretty easy to provide proof of plagiarism without even having to find the specific source. The next day in class, I had two students (not the students who "wrote" the papers) get up before class and begin reading the two papers simultaneously. It took about 10 seconds before everyone knew what was happening. After class, the two "transgressors" came up to me, one of them on the verge of tears, and admitted to plagiarism, separately (they didn't know each other) copying directly from a source they found in the library. I had them re-do the assignment. J.L. McClure From teaching_composition-admin Wed May 3 21:22:47 2000 Received: from f04n07.cac.psu.edu (f04s07.cac.psu.edu [128.118.141.35]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA27525 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 21:22:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pavilion (access-isdn1-7.sl.psu.edu [146.186.105.201]) by f04n07.cac.psu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA34104 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 22:22:43 -0400 From: "Billie Jones" To: Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Thanks to Michael Day and Welcome Gail Hapke Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 22:24:59 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal My "favorite" plagiarism story is actually the first case I suspected and pursued. Eventually, I was able to get at the truth, but that didn't bring me nearly as much pleasure as I had expected. A student in my first-year writing class had struggled all semester; actually, "struggled" is too active a verb; this student endured the semester with his writing making no improvement (because, I think, the student put forth little to no effort). His ideas were as underdeveloped as his sentences, which were seldom more than 12 words in length. However, with the last essay, a movie review, he had one slim chance of becoming eligible for the university's portfolio evaluation. Imagine my delight when I began reading his review of _Braveheart_, which began, "In the year of our Lord, 1995, Paramount Pictures . . . ." Unfortunately, as the masterful prose continued, I became increasingly sickened--this student couldn't possibly have written such lines. At that point, I was convinced that this review had been professionally written. To make a long story short, which is already impossible, the student denied any wrong-doing, even though he couldn't answer the simplest questions about the essay. And even after a break's worth of web-searches, I still couldn't find the original review, but I had learned that another student had submitted the same essay. (Learning even this was against great odds because there were over 100 sections of that same course offered that semester, most with similar assignments, taught by 40 different faculty members.) So, as the new semester began, I knew, or thought I knew that there were two plagiarists, about whom I spoke with my students on the first day of class. At the end of class, one of my new students came to me and after a brief discussion we realized that he was the other presumed plagiarist. But instead, I learned that this new student was the review's "real" author, and the "real" plagiarist was, my former student, his roommate. After nearly a month of meetings and confrontations the former student admitted that he had stolen his roommate's paper with a quick delete and a few extra keystrokes to type in his own name. Surprisingly (or maybe not so), I wasn't nearly as satisfied as I thought I might have been. It was disturbing to force my former student to admit what he had done to his friend, and more importantly, I felt somehow responsible for driving the student to do such a thing. Since that time I have been unfortunate enough to catch other obvious plagiarists, and once my anger wears off at having been played for a fool, like the time I received two, identical papers in the same class of 20 students, I find myself feeling saddened and somehow responsible. This feeling of responsibility has once again reared its ugly head this semester, when I received two papers with nearly identical introductions. Quick to assume plagiarism, I later began to question whether, in our writing community where sharing drafts had been as common as sharing a cup of sugar might have been in the idealized 1950's version of suburbia, these nearly identical introductions are actually a case of plagiarism. I have come to believe that the role of the single, autonomous author, if it ever truly existed, must surely be in flux in today's writing communities, and with it, the definition of plagiarism, as well. I look forward to our discussions here as a way to tease out some answers, or at least, to better formulate the questions to be asked. Billie Jones (bjj6@psu.edu) PSU Capital College From teaching_composition-admin Thu May 4 07:15:25 2000 Received: from mailhub.iastate.edu (mailhub.iastate.edu [129.186.1.102]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA13069 for ; Thu, 4 May 2000 07:15:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cmohrb (dial31.ppp.iastate.edu [129.186.97.31]) by mailhub.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA21027 for ; Thu, 4 May 2000 07:15:22 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000504070055.009b18b0@cmohrb.mail.iastate.edu> X-Sender: cmohrb@cmohrb.mail.iastate.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 07:15:13 -0500 To: Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com From: Carol A Mohrbacher Subject: [Teaching_Composition] plagiarism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Greetings, I also experienced "double submissions" of a plagiarized paper. This time, however, each student was in a different class. As I read through the first paper, something sounded familiar. It occurred to me that this was a website that I had been on. Not only that, it was a website that I'd had my students analyze for credibility (it was not a credible site). After the first page of the student's essay, the rest of the paper, excluding the conclusion was literally word for word. The next day, I was grading another batch of papers from another class when, lo and behold, that familiar wording and topic again. This student was also required to analyze this website. The students did not know each other; they weren't roommates, nor were they related. What disturbed me about this incident was that both students must have assumed either that I didn't read the website that I'd assigned them to analyze or that I have a very poor memory. One student had even taken the time to phony up an outline, a works cited page, and a draft or two--a lot of work for a plagiarized paper. Stupidity? Arrogance? Stress? I don't know. Carol Carol Mohrbacher 459 Ross Hall Iowa State University Ames, Iowa Office: 515 294-9097 Savoir est pouvoir From teaching_composition-admin Thu May 4 08:32:35 2000 Received: from staff1.cso.uiuc.edu (hapke@staff1.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.59]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA14446 for ; Thu, 4 May 2000 08:32:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost by staff1.cso.uiuc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA25429 for ; Thu, 4 May 2000 08:32:33 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: staff1.cso.uiuc.edu: hapke owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 08:32:33 -0500 (CDT) From: gail hapke X-Sender: hapke@staff1.cso.uiuc.edu To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Question of Authorship In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 3 May 2000, Billie Jones wrote: > Quick to assume plagiarism, I later began to question whether, in our > writing community where sharing drafts had been as common as sharing a cup > of sugar might have been in the idealized 1950's version of suburbia, these > nearly identical introductions are actually a case of plagiarism. I have > come to believe that the role of the single, autonomous author, if it ever > truly existed, must surely be in flux in today's writing communities, and > with it, the definition of plagiarism, as well. I look forward to our > discussions here as a way to tease out some answers, or at least, to better > formulate the questions to be asked. Billie has really hit the head on the nail (to quote one of the freshman placement exams I recently scored). The question of what the heck we mean by plagiarism comes down to what we mean by authorship/originality/"do your own work" (but remember that collaboration is good....) Bakhtin provides the locus classicus for discussions of this sort. He writes: Utterances are not indifferent to one another, and are not self-sufficient; they are aware of and mutually reflect one another. These mutual reflections determine their character. . . . Each utterance is filled with echoes and reverberations of other utterances to which it is related by the communality of the sphere of speech communication. Every utterance must be regarded primarily as a response to preceding utterances of the given sphere. . . . It is impossible to determine its position without correlating it with other positions. (91) [Bakhtin, Mikhail. RThe Problem of Speech Genres.S In Speech Genres and Other Late Essays, pp. 60-102. Translated by Vern McGee and edited by Caryl Emerson and Michael Holquist. Austin: University of Texas Press, 1986.] If the notion of authorship is inseparable from the notion of community, then what is plagiarism? We feel that we know intuitively when a student has flat-out cheated, committed a fraud on us, but do we? Where is the bright line between Bakhtinian dialogism and students downloading their workload from the internet or copying out of a library book? Gail From teaching_composition-admin Thu May 4 10:47:56 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17348 for ; Thu, 4 May 2000 10:47:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (webct170.webct.com [140.239.69.170]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id KDKAM8JL; Thu, 4 May 2000 12:03:36 -0400 Message-ID: <00c101bfb5e0$31c29240$aa45ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: References: Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Question of Authorship Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 11:48:29 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Great questions, Gail -- I've taught writing classes in a networked classroom since 1985; my classes engage in so much interaction in text that, like Dean Rehberger said, plagiarism in the traditional sense is very unlikely -- so I've wondered for years if "plagiarism" isn't an anachronism in the age of electronic text. I like how you've framed the question -- and, boy, isn't it fun to read Bakhtin! Trent ----- Original Message ----- From: "gail hapke" To: Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 9:32 AM Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Question of Authorship > > > On Wed, 3 May 2000, Billie Jones wrote: > > > Quick to assume plagiarism, I later began to question whether, in our > > writing community where sharing drafts had been as common as sharing a > cup > > of sugar might have been in the idealized 1950's version of suburbia, > these > > nearly identical introductions are actually a case of plagiarism. I > have > > come to believe that the role of the single, autonomous author, if it > ever > > truly existed, must surely be in flux in today's writing communities, > and > > with it, the definition of plagiarism, as well. I look forward to our > > discussions here as a way to tease out some answers, or at least, to > better > > formulate the questions to be asked. > > > Billie has really hit the head on the nail (to quote one of the freshman > placement exams I recently scored). The question of what the heck we mean > by plagiarism comes down to what we mean by authorship/originality/"do > your own work" (but remember that collaboration is good....) > > Bakhtin provides the locus classicus for discussions of this sort. He > writes: > > Utterances are not indifferent to one another, and are not > self-sufficient; they are aware of and mutually reflect one another. These > mutual reflections determine their character. . . . Each utterance is > filled with echoes and reverberations of other utterances to which it is > related by the communality of the sphere of speech communication. Every > utterance must be regarded primarily as a response to preceding utterances > of the given sphere. . . . It is impossible to determine its position > without correlating it with other positions. (91) [Bakhtin, Mikhail. RThe > Problem of Speech Genres.S In Speech Genres and Other Late Essays, pp. > 60-102. Translated by Vern McGee and edited by Caryl Emerson and > Michael Holquist. Austin: University of Texas Press, 1986.] > > If the notion of authorship is inseparable from the notion of community, > then what is plagiarism? > > We feel that we know intuitively when a student has flat-out cheated, > committed a fraud on us, but do we? Where is the bright line between > Bakhtinian dialogism and students downloading their workload from the > internet or copying out of a library book? > > Gail > > > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. From teaching_composition-admin Thu May 4 10:59:53 2000 Received: from staff2.cso.uiuc.edu (hapke@staff2.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.53]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17616 for ; Thu, 4 May 2000 10:59:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost by staff2.cso.uiuc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA17593; Thu, 4 May 2000 10:59:49 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: staff2.cso.uiuc.edu: hapke owned process doing -bs Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 10:59:49 -0500 (CDT) From: gail hapke X-Sender: hapke@staff2.cso.uiuc.edu To: Trent Batson cc: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Question of Authorship In-Reply-To: <00c101bfb5e0$31c29240$aa45ef8c@ULT> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Of course Bakhtin was not writing in an electronically networked environment, but he recognized the networking nonetheless....Perhaps the nature of electronic text and online collaboration has just made more visible to us the contradictions that have been there all along. Gail On Thu, 4 May 2000, Trent Batson wrote: > Great questions, Gail -- I've taught writing classes in a networked > classroom since 1985; my classes engage in so much interaction in text that, > like Dean Rehberger said, plagiarism in the traditional sense is very > unlikely -- so I've wondered for years if "plagiarism" isn't an anachronism > in the age of electronic text. I like how you've framed the question -- > and, boy, isn't it fun to read Bakhtin! > > Trent > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "gail hapke" > To: > Sent: Thursday, May 04, 2000 9:32 AM > Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Question of Authorship > > > > > > > > On Wed, 3 May 2000, Billie Jones wrote: > > > > > Quick to assume plagiarism, I later began to question whether, in our > > > writing community where sharing drafts had been as common as sharing a > > cup > > > of sugar might have been in the idealized 1950's version of suburbia, > > these > > > nearly identical introductions are actually a case of plagiarism. I > > have > > > come to believe that the role of the single, autonomous author, if it > > ever > > > truly existed, must surely be in flux in today's writing communities, > > and > > > with it, the definition of plagiarism, as well. I look forward to our > > > discussions here as a way to tease out some answers, or at least, to > > better > > > formulate the questions to be asked. > > > > > > Billie has really hit the head on the nail (to quote one of the freshman > > placement exams I recently scored). The question of what the heck we mean > > by plagiarism comes down to what we mean by authorship/originality/"do > > your own work" (but remember that collaboration is good....) > > > > Bakhtin provides the locus classicus for discussions of this sort. He > > writes: > > > > Utterances are not indifferent to one another, and are not > > self-sufficient; they are aware of and mutually reflect one another. These > > mutual reflections determine their character. . . . Each utterance is > > filled with echoes and reverberations of other utterances to which it is > > related by the communality of the sphere of speech communication. Every > > utterance must be regarded primarily as a response to preceding utterances > > of the given sphere. . . . It is impossible to determine its position > > without correlating it with other positions. (91) [Bakhtin, Mikhail. RThe > > Problem of Speech Genres.S In Speech Genres and Other Late Essays, pp. > > 60-102. Translated by Vern McGee and edited by Caryl Emerson and > > Michael Holquist. Austin: University of Texas Press, 1986.] > > > > If the notion of authorship is inseparable from the notion of community, > > then what is plagiarism? > > > > We feel that we know intuitively when a student has flat-out cheated, > > committed a fraud on us, but do we? Where is the bright line between > > Bakhtinian dialogism and students downloading their workload from the > > internet or copying out of a library book? > > > > Gail > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > > > If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your > information. > > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. > From teaching_composition-admin Thu May 4 22:51:02 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (f232.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.232]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id WAA03293 for ; Thu, 4 May 2000 22:51:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 32211 invoked by uid 0); 5 May 2000 03:50:28 -0000 Message-ID: <20000505035028.32210.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.193.107.190 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 04 May 2000 20:50:28 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.193.107.190] From: "Shelley Reid" To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Question of Authorship Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 22:50:28 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Gail quotes Bakhtin (in part): >Utterances ... are aware of and mutually reflect one another. These >mutual reflections determine their character. . . . Each utterance is >filled with echoes and reverberations of other utterances... Every >utterance must be regarded primarily as a response to preceding utterances It's that "response to" part of the quotation that I think serves as one of my "clear lines." A student who submits work that is primarily downloaded from -- as in my student's case last spring -- say, the Heath Anthology Teacher's Manual Web site and strung together isn't doing much responding. Bakhtin's argument that there are essentially no wholly new or "original" utterances doesn't, I think, suggest that we should give up and *just* repeat what other people say. Still, the issue is complex, and perhaps getting to be more so. I just handed back 20% of my comp students' final essays for re-revision because they were in large or small part composed of whole sentences copied directly from published sources -- sentences which were nonetheless cited in correct APA parenthetical style and copied from sources that the students happily turned in with their folders. Some of these were from my best students; most students responded in all innocence (despite everything we covered in class) that they had no idea they had crossed a line. It's beginning to seem to me that the very concept of language "ownership" is not meshing with the rest of what the world at large is teaching them, and so finds no solid place to hook into their brains. Is the idea of plagiarism going to be -- is it already -- like the "singular 'they'" ("Sometimes a student can lose their place while reading") -- where the start of a sea-change in popular usage changes the rules enough that even comp teachers have to shift back from the "clear line"? shelley E. Shelley Reid English Department Oklahoma State University Stillwater, OK 74078-4069 esreid@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From teaching_composition-admin Fri May 5 00:13:12 2000 Received: from mail.kwom.com (root@mail.kwom.com [206.185.16.5]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA05515 for ; Fri, 5 May 2000 00:13:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kwom.com (pm3-2-40.kwom.com [206.185.17.104]) by mail.kwom.com (8.9.2/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA11818 for ; Fri, 5 May 2000 00:11:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <391258EA.56E17BC4@kwom.com> Date: Fri, 05 May 2000 00:15:35 -0500 From: Kafkaz Reply-To: Kafkaz@kwom.com Organization: College of DuPage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Question of Authorship References: <20000505035028.32210.qmail@hotmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Coupla ideas off the top of my head-- One is that many students simply don't value words as we do. For them, the idea that another's words can somehow be "taken" simply doesn't apply. Add to that assignments that they don't feel much fondness for or control over, and plagiarism seems inevitable. Probably amazing we don't see (or catch) more of it. A second flows from the first. Usually, when I'm writing something like an essay, it's because I really want to. There is some pressing thing that needs saying, or some thorny idea that needs working out, so I write. If I bring other voices into it, it's because they help me clarify, they muddy me up in productive ways, they give me something to write against, or they otherwise assist me in whatever my purpose is. That the purpose *is* mine is never in doubt. Seems likely to me that lots of students never see it that way. We can invoke all of our lovely metaphors about multivocality and intertextuality being something like an ongoing conversation (and an absolutely absorbing one, at that), but the truth is that it's a conversation many of them don't feel authorized to enter even if they wanted to. So, they get bowled over by other's words. Maybe they do the "a chunk of this plus a chunk of that plus a chunk of the other thing" mostly because they feel pretty silenced by those "chunks" or bricks--able to do little else but slap the occasional sentence of their own, like a thin layer of mortar, between them. The trick, I guess, is somehow reversing the ratio--the student's voice dominating, the other voices serving as the mortar. Another notion: find a way to make some instructional use of that tendency toward "chunking." For instance, it's really not a bad invention or organizational strategy at all to line up bits of other's writing. Okay, so now those are the landmarks on some sort of path the writer is begin to envision. Actually composing that path--explaining the as yet unarticulated relationships between the bits--well, that's a darned good way to write as far as I'm concerned. Once the path is composed, the bits can be trimmed or shaped as suitable. Probably, all of them won't be needed anymore. Also, there may sometimes be cultural element to consider. Once, one of my students plagiarized from a paper I had written to share with the class. He figured echoing teacher's words was the highest form of compliment, and a savvy political move, to boot. That was an enlightening discussion for both of us. Finally, even if a student only ever writes one single thing that she really cares about, truly has a stake in, she will begin to grasp plagiarism. Take the words from a song or a story she's written and claim them as your own and you'll see an instant, bone-deep appreciation of how concepts like ownership, morality, and ethics get attached to how we handle others' words. That's actually another good reason to keep classroom writing as accessible as possible, too. Once students begin to value their own and each other's words, it's not quite as far a hop to understanding why we extend the same respect to those *other* words, or how it is that they really do constitue a sort of conversation that can be entered--there's a door in that brick wall, after all. Kathy at C.O.D. -- Kathy A.Fitch Assistant Professor of English College of DuPage http://www.cod.edu http://personal.kwom.com/Kafkaz/kfitch/ http://personal.kwom.com/Kafkaz/ptweb/ From teaching_composition-admin Fri May 5 14:23:22 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA26029 for ; Fri, 5 May 2000 14:23:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bluestem (bluestem.prairienet.org [192.17.3.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12738; Fri, 5 May 2000 14:23:08 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 14:23:07 -0500 (CDT) From: "Warren B. Hapke" X-Sender: wbhapke@bluestem To: Shelley Reid cc: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Question of Authorship In-Reply-To: <20000505035028.32210.qmail@hotmail.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 4 May 2000, Shelley Reid wrote: [Much cut.] > Is the idea of plagiarism going to be -- is it already -- like the "singular > 'they'" ("Sometimes a student can lose their place while reading") -- where > the start of a sea-change in popular usage changes the rules enough that > even comp teachers have to shift back from the "clear line"? First, a mild digression. The "singular 'they'" is actually a fairly old usage. There's a good Web page on it (with an emphasis on its use by Jane Austen) at http://wwww.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austheir.html I'm no longer teaching composition, so my plagiarism story is about 20 years old. I was teaching English 103 (Introduction to Fiction) and had assigned Huckleberry Finn (Signet Classics edition) as the first novel. The student paper I was reading had all the classic signs (very sophisticated sentences, etc.), and much of the wording seemed very familiar. I checked the introduction to the edition we were using in class, and sure enough, the student had plagiarized from it. I confronted her, and she claimed that she didn't realize what the rules for citations were. I made her redo the paper. To the best of my knowledge, she didn't do anything else wrong that semester. (None of the other papers seemed suspicious.) I do think that most students probably don't understand why their teachers insist on citations. I suspect they consider it one of those strange, inexplicable quirks of academics. Warren B. Hapke wbhapke@prairienet.org From teaching_composition-admin Fri May 5 15:37:51 2000 Received: from staff1.cso.uiuc.edu (hapke@staff1.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.59]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA27505 for ; Fri, 5 May 2000 15:37:50 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost by staff1.cso.uiuc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA23420; Fri, 5 May 2000 15:37:47 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: staff1.cso.uiuc.edu: hapke owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 5 May 2000 15:37:46 -0500 (CDT) From: gail hapke X-Sender: hapke@staff1.cso.uiuc.edu To: Kafkaz cc: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Question of Authorship In-Reply-To: <391258EA.56E17BC4@kwom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Kathy brings up several important points. In particular, > > that many students simply don't value words as we do. For them, the idea that > another's words can somehow be "taken" simply doesn't apply. I think this may explain the feeling of guilt that teachers and administrators feel as they confront students with clear evidence of academic wrongdoing--and the students respond with that look of injured innocence....What'd I do wrong?....It's just WORDS........Is there something wrong with the way we teach these academic conventions? Are we really teaching students to value their own and other people's words, or are we just rather desperately trying to clothe the natives, who find our efforts vaguely amusing but baffling? Perhaps we need a new vocabulary for dealing with plagiarism that takes into account the qualitative difference between the student who downloads or copies for the purpose of perpetrating a fraud and the student who just "doesn't get it." Rebecca Howard has proposed a three-tiered approach: inappropriate source use patchwriting fraud with fraud alone qualifying as a disciplinary matter--the others being pedagogical concerns. See Howard's essay "Plagiarisms, Authorships, and the Academic Death Penalty." College English 57 (7) (1995): 788-806. Becky has taken considerable grief for her position, but I think it is eminently sensible, especially in cases like that of "Tanya" in a classic Hull & Rose article ( Glynda Hull and Mark Rose, in "Rethinking Remediation: Toward a Social-Cognitive Understanding of Problematic Reading and Writing."Written Communication 6 (1989): 139-54. "We are struck by her 'plagiarism'[they write]...not only because it is so startling a departure from traditional ways of using a source text, but because it foregrounds for us what is often an unquestioned practice in the Western essayist tradition. We academic writers internalize rules and strategies for citing source texts, for acknowledging debts to previous scholarship, for separating what we can claim as our own ideas from the intellectual property of others. And we do so, once we have learned the tricks of our trade, almost without thinking, producing essays that seem to mark clearly where other peopleUs ideas end and ours begin. Such clearly documented writing may let us forget, or even camouflage, how much more we borrow from existing texts, how much we depend upon membership in a community for our language, our voices, our very arguments. We forget that we, like Tanya, continually appropriate each otherUs language to establish group membership, to grow, and to define ourselves in new ways, and that such appropriation is a fundamental part of language use, even as the appearance of our texts belies it."(152) My questions to the list are: ----Do we need to redefine plagiarism? ----If so, where do we start? and ----How do we begin identifying and teaching (rather than just exposing and punishing) students who cannot comprehend the boundaries between their writing and the writing of their sources, especially those who are honestly using a technique such as patchwriting (or chunking) as a means of joining the academic dialogue? Gail From teaching_composition-admin Sat May 6 09:00:10 2000 Received: from staff2.cso.uiuc.edu (hapke@staff2.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.53]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA21347 for ; Sat, 6 May 2000 09:00:09 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost by staff2.cso.uiuc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA04628 for ; Sat, 6 May 2000 09:00:04 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: staff2.cso.uiuc.edu: hapke owned process doing -bs Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 09:00:04 -0500 (CDT) From: gail hapke X-Sender: hapke@staff2.cso.uiuc.edu To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Putting Plagiarism in Context In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII As the discipline changes and as reading and writing themselves change, it seems inevitable that our views on plagiarism (even our definitions of plagiarism) will change as well. Tom Miller of the University of Arizona recently posted a discussion of the future of the discipline on the PRETEXT listserve and has given me permission to repost part of it here: As a historian of the teaching of English before it got disciplined, I used to say that I hoped to make it to the twentieth century before it ended. Having missed that deadline, I am left wondering what will happen to college English as its traditional object of study--the book--disintegrates before our eyes amidst historical changes in literacy that are accelerating at an unprecedented rate. Can you remember how you read and wrote before email? Can you remember when you entertained the delusion of "keeping up" with the discipline, noting references from the latest article and running to the card catalogue to find the books, rather than clicking your way around the internet? Do you remember when we did not have to insist that students actually do some of their library research in the library. Preserve those fading memories. They're valuable historical sources. The culture of the book is coming to its final chapter as an idealized manifestation of the educated public, and its classics, modes of close reading, and carefully contained forms of writing are changing before our eyes into intertexts to be scanned and mediated. Universities are morphing from bastions of the learned culture into service and content providers. English studies may end up becoming the classics departments of a post-literary, if not post-literate society. More likely they'll continue to morph into cultural studies departments because that paradigm suits the need for intellectually versatile and more critically sophisticated information managers. [Professor Miller adds]: Email encourages us to soundbite and overstatement, but literacy is changing so fast it is hard to remember how we used to read before we read so much on screen rather than in hand. For those who want to follow up, read Richard Lanham's and Robert Scholes's books on the profession. [To further contextualize what we now think of as plagiarism, he also offers this example from the 18th century]: I found the most interesting case of what appears to have been plagiarism in the first set of student papers written in English that I know of, from John Stevenson's class at Edinburgh in the 1730s. I took a lot of notes on the papers and then several years later I found the same essay in one of the first _American Magazines_ from the 1740s (two or three by the same title appeared up through Webster's in the 1780s). (I can dig out the references if people really want them, but I do not have them readily at hand.) The other essays in the set of papers are not terribly well written, so they are not just declamations that students could have been assigned to read aloud but not necessarily to write themselves. Now it could be that the student emigrated to America and published his college essay, but it is far more likely that he submitted an essay that he had cribbed from a London periodical and that the _American Magazine_ editors did the same. The essay was on the arts of polite conversation, which was a commonplace theme, but the essays are identical. Provincial magazines regularly stole from London periodicals, and the periodicals themselves often printed sections from books, sometimes cast in the form of "reviews" and sometimes with separate titles. So was this plagiarism? Modern copyright laws did not get squared away until the end of the eighteenth century (I think, been ten years since I read about that), but I do not really know if they were enforced on making essays out of books for magazines (the term was used for storerooms for ammunition as well as periodicals because "magazines" were often marketed as compilations like _Readers' Digest_.) From teaching_composition-admin Sat May 6 09:33:23 2000 Received: from mrgarrison.citlink.net (mrgarrison.citlink.net [207.173.229.16]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22413 for ; Sat, 6 May 2000 09:33:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from citlink.net ([170.215.225.27]) by mrgarrison.citlink.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-66929U100000L100000S0V35) with ESMTP id net; Sat, 6 May 2000 09:34:29 -0500 Message-ID: <3914572B.B97FD6B0@citlink.net> Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 10:32:42 -0700 From: Rebecca Moore Howard Reply-To: rehoward@syr.edu Organization: Syracuse University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com CC: Seth Kahn Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Punishing fraud References: <200005052038.PAA27539@greenhouse.eppg.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gail asks whether we should redefine plagiarism, and of course my own answer is "yes." But now I'm worrying about the line I've drawn, where I've said we should punish fraud. I'm having doubts about whether even that is a stable category. First of all, a colleague here at Syracuse says he doesn't go to the judiciary with any type of academic violation: he thinks the student will benefit more from teaching than from punishment. He keeps 'em in class, makes them do their own work, makes them learn. This forces me to the painful, embarrassing memory of my own practice of cheating in high school math. I wasn't interested in math, thought it was hard work with no point, and I was in full-tilt rebellion against sanctimonious moral codes of all shapes and sizes. Then I got to college and discovered I didn't know much math. For some reason college seemed more serious than high school: I was no longer willing to cheat, but I didn't know enough math to pass college algebra, either. And of course I realized that I'd been cheating myself. I was horrified. I may have been lazy, but I didn't want to be stupid. I signed up for college trig and worked my face off, learning both algebra and trig simultaneously, getting a ton of tutoring, and getting an "A" in the course. That felt good. I had that wonderful fresh-start feeling of being not only smart but also intellectual and hard-working; I liked that feeling a lot. So where does my insistence on punishing fraud and cheating leave students like the Becky Moore of 1964? Certainly Seth Kahn, who would have said, "Listen, you jerk, this matters, and if you want to pass this class, you're going to have to learn how to do it," would have been a much better teacher for me than Becky Howard, who would have said, "Cheater! Off with her head!" Or should someone who at one time was immoral and rebellious (and who knows--may still be!) have been prevented from taking a position of leadership in the academy? Should it go on record that the student has participated in cheating/fraud, so that a second occurrence does result in the death penalty? Yes, definitely. But I'm thinking that (a) if the teacher has the resources to work with the student and (b) if the institution has a decent record-keeping system so that the incorrigibles can be kicked out, then even the gatekeeping punishments for fraud and cheating may need to be reconsidered. But then again, how much would such a system be abused in situations like the one that Linda Bensel-Meyers describes at Tennessee, where a whole network of people are devoted to getting athletes through the academic system by whatever means possible? Becky Howard -- Rebecca Moore Howard Associate Professor of Writing and Rhetoric Syracuse University The Writing Program HB Crouse 237 Syracuse, New York 13244 O (315) 443-1083 H (315) 691-5116 F (315) 691-9821 rehoward@syr.edu http://wrt-howard.syr.edu From teaching_composition-admin Sat May 6 13:30:21 2000 Received: from corn.cso.niu.edu (tb0mxd1@corn.cso.niu.edu [131.156.1.37]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27097 for ; Sat, 6 May 2000 13:30:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from tb0mxd1@localhost) by corn.cso.niu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) id NAA04249; Sat, 6 May 2000 13:30:19 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sat, 6 May 2000 13:30:19 -0500 (CDT) From: day michael Message-Id: <200005061830.NAA04249@corn.cso.niu.edu> To: hapke@ux1.cso.uiuc.edu, teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Putting Plagiarism in Context Hi all! I'm really enjoying this discussion of plagiarism, and feeling as if I should just check in with some ideas that I've had (which aren't new, and are *stolen*!) that found their way into a 1995 CCCC talk I gave, called STEAL THIS TALK! In it I discussed some of the sharing of ideas and plot lines from Chaucer's and Shakespeare's times, my experiences teaching in Japan, where borrowing ideas without citation, or without complete citation seemed to be the norm, and looking forward to the impossibilities of copyright and idea ownership in the age of the Internet and web. I just wanted to point out that we are located within an age and culture which defines ownership and rights over words and ideas rather strictly, and that at other times and places, it was not so strict. I wanted to point out that because of the ease of reproduction, dissemination, and collaboration on the net, it may be silly to try to apply current notions of print copyright to many forms of electronic writing. That there are also implications for academic standards toward plagiarism can best be seen in the changing and as-yet-unset guidelines for citing electronic work. I also advocate the move toward what the Free Software Foundation terms "copyleft," rules for freely sharing your own work as long as NOBODY else can claim it as their own or charge money for it. Anyway, this is what the current discussion of plagiarism made me think about. If you want to see more of the piece, currently a chapter due out in _New Worlds, New Words: Exploring Pathways for Writing About and in Electronic Environments_ from Hampton Press (http://www.eaze.net/~jfbarber/worlds_book.html) this year, just let me know. Last thought: Have any of you tried out the screening programs at www.plagiarism.org and www.plagiarism.com? Best, Michael From teaching_composition-admin Sat May 6 13:59:38 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (f152.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.152]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id NAA27343 for ; Sat, 6 May 2000 13:59:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 66919 invoked by uid 0); 6 May 2000 18:59:02 -0000 Message-ID: <20000506185902.66918.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 139.78.143.44 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 06 May 2000 11:59:02 PDT X-Originating-IP: [139.78.143.44] From: "Shelley Reid" Cc: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Question of Authorship Date: Sat, 06 May 2000 13:59:02 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Warren Hapke wrote: >First, a mild digression. The "singular 'they'" is actually a fairly old >usage. There's a good Web page on it (with an emphasis on its use by Jane >Austen) at > >http://wwww.crossmyt.com/hc/linghebr/austheir.html Indeed -- as others have noted on this list, what we in US Academe call "plagiarism" is (like the "singular 'they'") very much a function of time and culture, as is so much of academic writing. Why put the thesis at the beginning of the essay? why assume that the reader must be led step by step through each detail of an argument? why put periods inside quotation marks? All of these -- particularly after my experiences teaching international students -- I now construct for my students as expectations/rules that are neither absolute nor entirely arbitrary, but which they need to know nonetheless. But plagiarism is the only one of these with both legal and moral implications, right? I'm willing to acknowledge that students don't know the "rules" when they first enter my class (even, sigh, my upper level English majors), and both to teach them step by step and to modify my own expectations having to do with source management. After I've done that, though, and a student *still* blatantly copies material without citing it...?? That student is breaking the law, as currently constructed; s/he is also likely breaking my own class rules about what I call "cheating." S/he has transgressed both legal and moral codes, even if intellectually I acknowledge the frailty and constructedness of those codes. How do we get back to the teaching of writing in the presence of such highly fraught pressures? shelley E. Shelley Reid English Department Oklahoma State University Stillwater, OK 74078-4069 esreid@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From teaching_composition-admin Mon May 8 10:25:22 2000 Received: from staff2.cso.uiuc.edu (hapke@staff2.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.53]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA26765 for ; Mon, 8 May 2000 10:25:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost by staff2.cso.uiuc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA01241; Mon, 8 May 2000 10:25:10 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: staff2.cso.uiuc.edu: hapke owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 10:25:09 -0500 (CDT) From: gail hapke X-Sender: hapke@staff2.cso.uiuc.edu To: rehoward@syr.edu cc: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Punishing fraud In-Reply-To: <3914572B.B97FD6B0@citlink.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Becky complicates the issue of redefinition, and all to the good as far as I'm concerned. So the question becomes not only should we redefine plagiarism according to the fraud/inappropriate citation/patchwriting breakdown, but should we further break down our definition of and response to fraud itself? If so, how do we make our classifications.....venial and mortal fraud? single and repeated fraud? smart and stupid fraud? How do we decide whom to put in purgatory and whom to send directly to hell? Any ideas for a perhaps more sensible set of categories than the ones I've just come up with off the top of my head? Gail On Sat, 6 May 2000, Rebecca Moore Howard wrote: > Gail asks whether we should redefine plagiarism, and of course my own answer > is "yes." But now I'm worrying about the line I've drawn, where I've said we > should punish fraud. I'm having doubts about whether even that is a stable > category. First of all, a colleague here at Syracuse says he doesn't go to > the judiciary with any type of academic violation: he thinks the student > will benefit more from teaching than from punishment. He keeps 'em in class, > makes them do their own work, makes them learn. This forces me to the > painful, embarrassing memory of my own practice of cheating in high school > math. I wasn't interested in math, thought it was hard work with no point, > and I was in full-tilt rebellion against sanctimonious moral codes of all > shapes and sizes. Then I got to college and discovered I didn't know much > math. For some reason college seemed more serious than high school: I was > no longer willing to cheat, but I didn't know enough math to pass college > algebra, either. And of course I realized that I'd been cheating myself. I > was horrified. I may have been lazy, but I didn't want to be stupid. I > signed up for college trig and worked my face off, learning both algebra and > trig simultaneously, getting a ton of tutoring, and getting an "A" in the > course. That felt good. I had that wonderful fresh-start feeling of being > not only smart but also intellectual and hard-working; I liked that feeling > a lot. > > So where does my insistence on punishing fraud and cheating leave students > like the Becky Moore of 1964? Certainly Seth Kahn, who would have said, > "Listen, you jerk, this matters, and if you want to pass this class, you're > going to have to learn how to do it," would have been a much better teacher > for me than Becky Howard, who would have said, "Cheater! Off with her > head!" Or should someone who at one time was immoral and rebellious (and who > knows--may still be!) have been prevented from taking a position of > leadership in the academy? > > Should it go on record that the student has participated in cheating/fraud, > so that a second occurrence does result in the death penalty? Yes, > definitely. But I'm thinking that (a) if the teacher has the resources to > work with the student and (b) if the institution has a decent record-keeping > system so that the incorrigibles can be kicked out, then even the gatekeeping > punishments for fraud and cheating may need to be reconsidered. But then > again, how much would such a system be abused in situations like the one that > Linda Bensel-Meyers describes at Tennessee, where a whole network of people > are devoted to getting athletes through the academic system by whatever means > possible? > > Becky Howard > > > -- > > > Rebecca Moore Howard > Associate Professor of Writing and Rhetoric > Syracuse University > The Writing Program > HB Crouse 237 > Syracuse, New York 13244 > O (315) 443-1083 > H (315) 691-5116 > F (315) 691-9821 > rehoward@syr.edu > http://wrt-howard.syr.edu > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. > From teaching_composition-admin Wed May 3 17:32:42 2000 Received: from staff2.cso.uiuc.edu (hapke@staff2.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.53]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA22672 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 17:32:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost by staff2.cso.uiuc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA28957 for ; Wed, 3 May 2000 17:32:41 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: staff2.cso.uiuc.edu: hapke owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 3 May 2000 17:32:41 -0500 (CDT) From: gail hapke X-Sender: hapke@staff2.cso.uiuc.edu To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Plagiarism Season.... (fwd) Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Folks, Don't forget to send your messages to teaching_composition, not to me. Otherwise I'll have all the fun. Gail ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Wed, 03 May 2000 16:47:31 -0500 From: Eric Hoffman To: gail hapke Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Plagiarism Season.... Hi Gail. I always love to share the most egregious case of plagiarism I've come across. I was teaching a mythology course, and a student who I hadn't seen for over 9 weeks shows up with his paper (on the wrong day: I had changed the due date a month earlier). Not recognizing the young man, I looked at the name of the paper he gave me, and checked it against my roster. "Dude," I told him, "you're not even in my class." He assured me that he was, and pointed to his name on my class roster. I looked at him, and then looked at his paper again, and asked "Well then, who is this?" He looked at me for a moment, and then asked if he could have his paper back. Intrigued, I agreed. The student turned around, ripped the title page off the paper, and gave it back to me. I was so flabbergasted at this display of audacity that I just stared at him for a few moments before explaining the degree to which he failed the course. Sometimes, plagiarism is easier to catch than others. -Eric Hoffman gail hapke wrote: > Thanks Trent! This is certainly a great time of year to begin a discussion > of plagiarism in the first-year comp class, with tens of thousands of > research papers coming due even as we (virtually) speak. I wonder how many > of our subscribers have already seen the first signs of summer....the > student disappearing from class for two weeks...The perfect off-topic > paper showing up in the mailbox unannounced.....The faint whiff of > magazine ink wafting up from a catchy introduction....the British spellings..... > the nonexistent sources....the furtive looks...the roommate's name on > the top of page 10... > > Maybe we could start out our discussion by sharing some of our own > adventures in plagiarism detection, either past or present, just so we > can find out if we're all on the same page (as it were). > > Then maybe we can segue into a discussion of what the heck plagiarism is > anyway. > > Salutations, > > Gail > > Gail Hapke > Assistant to the Director > Academic Writing Program > University of Illinois > at Urbana-Champaign > > 294 English Building > 608 South Wright Street > Urbana IL 61801 > 217-244-1458 > > On Wed, 3 May 2000, Trent Batson wrote: > > > Here I am three days late in introducing our new discussion leader, Gail Hapke, Assistant to the Director, Academic Writing Program, University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign. > > > > Her material on plagiarism can be found at http://www.mhhe.com/socscience/english/tc/ > > > > It looks like my being tardy (I was launching a new moderator training effort and forgot which week it was) served a purpose in allowing a good conversation to proceed. Michael was gracious enough to stick around a few days after his 2 weeks were over. > > > > Thanks, Michael. > > > > And, welcome, Gail. > > > > And, to all the rest of you, hope you survived the semester. > > > > Trent > > > > > > _________________ > > Trent Batson, Ph.D., > > Consultant > > WebCT > > Two Corporation Way > > Peabody, MA 01960 > > > > 978-538-0036 > > 401-225-5009 (cell) > > 978-538-0309 (fax) > > www.webct.com > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition From teaching_composition-admin Thu May 4 20:01:12 2000 Received: from mail.matrix.msu.edu (mail.matrix.msu.edu [35.8.2.176]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA29746 for ; Thu, 4 May 2000 20:01:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 1cust23.tnt12.det3.da.uu.net (Default) [63.27.69.23] by mail.matrix.msu.edu with smtp (Exim 2.05 #1 (Debian)) id 12nWUS-0004fS-00; Thu, 4 May 2000 21:01:13 -0400 From: "Dean Rehberger" To: Subject: [Teaching_Composition] FW: [Teaching_Composition] Thanks to Michael Day and Welcome Gail Hapke Date: Thu, 4 May 2000 21:02:32 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 Importance: Normal Before getting into mistakes a short recent story. a colleague found that a paper in class had been copied from the internet. He sent out an email to all students explaining the find and he would not penalize the student if he/she came forward. the next class meeting four students came forward. Mistake #1 Poorly designed assignment that invites plagiarism. Students often don't understand plagiarism because they have learned to write by copying. They often see citing sources as bad since the paper will not be "original." Students often struggle on first assignment and want to impress the instructor so will take an easy way to do so. So sending them to the library to find paper topic is to invite plagiarism. I find that to structure assignments in two ways helps: 1) Do a good deal of writing the paper in class through free writing, brainstorming, group work, and such give students a good start. Often having to cut down the many word generated into a paper stops struggling students from taking easy way out and it is easy to see a sudden shift in what they are doing. In short, make paper an integral part of class and particular to class. 2) Sequence assignments so that students do a number of small assignments that build up to larger paper. Again, they have words to work with. They have materials in hand so hard to make switch to different finished paper. A simple example is to have students write a summary of a work fist and then write a review of the work that incorporates the summary. 3) Change rhetorical situation. Have students take a work they have written and change the reader. Even if they copy the rhetorical work of changing the paper to focus on different rhetorical situation will be valuable work. For example, I have students write a summary of a work for a friend who has missed class, a group of grade school students, and as a talk given on a tour. Or write a editorial for a friendly audience and a hostile audience. Mistake #2 Also, never tell students to not cite sources. Explain up front the need to always do so. Have students do readings and analyze how writers in different rhetorical situations do so (popular magazine to academic article). Have students write about how the citations add to the rhetorical effectiveness of works. Mistake #3 never send students to library on early assignments. It can be too scary and may ask students to do things they may not normally do. Dean Rehberger Associate Director of Matrix Associate Professor Michigan State University 310 Auditorium East Lansing, MI 48824-1120 rehberge@msu.edu matrix.msu.edu/rehberger wk: (517) 353-4969 fax: (517) 355-8363 hm: (517) 347-7372 -See how many mistakes you can spot that I made: An early assignment was to write a short informative essay about a topic that the readers (the class) would find interesting. (We were focusing on the various means of engaging interest.) I gave some possible general topics -- the origin of a holiday, the invention of something common, how something is made, etc. I suggested going to the library to look for a topic and find information about it (we would be getting into research later in the semester), but there was no need to cite that information (because what they should find for the purposes of this assignment should be "common knowledge"), nor did they need to include a Works Consulted page (they weren't required to consult sources if they didn't need to). As I read the student papers that came in, I discovered two papers that were exactly -- word for word -- the same. Clearly both writers had found the same source and just copied it. Pretty easy to provide proof of plagiarism without even having to find the specific source. The next day in class, I had two students (not the students who "wrote" the papers) get up before class and begin reading the two papers simultaneously. It took about 10 seconds before everyone knew what was happening. After class, the two "transgressors" came up to me, one of them on the verge of tears, and admitted to plagiarism, separately (they didn't know each other) copying directly from a source they found in the library. I had them re-do the assignment. J.L. McClure _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. From teaching_composition-admin Thu May 4 12:29:28 2000 Received: from directory.svsu.edu (directory.svsu.edu [155.138.1.51]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA20116 for ; Thu, 4 May 2000 12:29:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from svsu.edu (lan13-151.svsu.edu [155.138.13.151]) by directory.svsu.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with ESMTP id NAA27979 for ; Thu, 4 May 2000 13:29:28 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <3911B34C.D6D57F69@svsu.edu> Date: Thu, 04 May 2000 13:28:45 -0400 From: "Lynne R. Graft" Organization: Saginaw Valley State University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en]C-CCK-MCD {SVSU} (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] How to join listserv? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi. I gave instructions for this listserv to a colleague to join. She likes it very much but can't remember how she joined. How do I subscribe? Thanks! Lynne Graft saginaw Valley State University University Center Michigan 48710-0001 From teaching_composition-admin Wed May 10 09:53:12 2000 Received: from po.jccc.net (po.jccc.net [198.248.56.170]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA03456 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:53:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: by po.jccc.net with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) id ; Wed, 10 May 2000 09:53:12 -0500 Message-ID: <41791EFD4E88D111A79C00805FE62D0C02F636F0@po.jccc.net> From: Andy Anderson To: "'teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com'" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] plagiarism Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 09:53:09 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2650.21) Content-Type: text/plain Gail and everyone, The internet has certainly opened up a world of fresh sources for plagiarism--and, of course, an equal number of ways to be caught. Recently, I received a six page essay copied right off the internet--how could I tell? The first clue was the student had not bothered to read what he printed off the web. When he copied the document, he somehow lost nearly one inch of print on the right margin. He had no idea what words went in the missing space. --Andy Anderson, Johnson County Community College From teaching_composition-admin Wed May 10 14:45:00 2000 Received: from ark.ship.edu (ark.ship.edu [157.160.32.12]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA09661 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 14:44:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (crcaut@localhost) by ark.ship.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id PAA23646; Wed, 10 May 2000 15:58:31 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:58:30 -0400 (EDT) From: Cramer R Cauthen To: Andy Anderson cc: "'teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com'" Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] plagiarism In-Reply-To: <41791EFD4E88D111A79C00805FE62D0C02F636F0@po.jccc.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII To my knowledge, the best way of preempting web-based plagiarism is to demonstrate to the students that you can find the crib sheets as well as they can ---- The best way to do so (at least that I know of) is through a boolean search at www.altavista.com. Randy Cauthen, Ph.D. Visiting Assistant Professor of English Shippensburg University crcaut@ark.ship.edu [717] 477-1305 On Wed, 10 May 2000, Andy Anderson wrote: > Gail and everyone, > > The internet has certainly opened up a world of fresh sources for > plagiarism--and, of course, an equal number of ways to be caught. > > Recently, I received a six page essay copied right off the internet--how > could I tell? The first clue was the student had not bothered to read what > he printed off the web. When he copied the document, he somehow lost nearly > one inch of print on the right margin. He had no idea what words went in > the missing space. > > --Andy Anderson, Johnson County Community College > > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. > From teaching_composition-admin Wed May 10 15:00:33 2000 Received: from staff2.cso.uiuc.edu (hapke@staff2.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.53]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA09874 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 15:00:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost by staff2.cso.uiuc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA00917; Wed, 10 May 2000 15:00:19 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: staff2.cso.uiuc.edu: hapke owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:00:19 -0500 (CDT) From: gail hapke X-Sender: hapke@staff2.cso.uiuc.edu To: Cramer R Cauthen cc: Andy Anderson , "'teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com'" Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] plagiarism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII www.plagiarism.org also works well. You get a free demo, then you have to pay thirty bucks for the service, but that's not much if you're signing on as a program rather than an individual. Gail Gail Hapke Assistant to the Director Academic Writing Program University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 294 English Building 608 South Wright Street Urbana IL 61801 217-244-1458 On Wed, 10 May 2000, Cramer R Cauthen wrote: > > To my knowledge, the best way of preempting web-based plagiarism is to > demonstrate to the students that you can find the crib sheets as well as > they can ---- The best way to do so (at least that I know of) is through a > boolean search at www.altavista.com. > > Randy Cauthen, Ph.D. > Visiting Assistant Professor of English > Shippensburg University > crcaut@ark.ship.edu > [717] 477-1305 > > On Wed, 10 May 2000, Andy Anderson wrote: > > > Gail and everyone, > > > > The internet has certainly opened up a world of fresh sources for > > plagiarism--and, of course, an equal number of ways to be caught. > > > > Recently, I received a six page essay copied right off the internet--how > > could I tell? The first clue was the student had not bothered to read what > > he printed off the web. When he copied the document, he somehow lost nearly > > one inch of print on the right margin. He had no idea what words went in > > the missing space. > > > > --Andy Anderson, Johnson County Community College > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > > > If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. > From teaching_composition-admin Wed May 10 17:23:39 2000 Received: from mx1.thebiz.net (mx1.thebiz.net [216.238.0.20]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA13455 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:23:39 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 17:23:39 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200005102223.RAA13455@greenhouse.eppg.com> Received: (qmail 15435 invoked from network); 10 May 2000 18:16:57 -0400 Received: from mail2.thebiz.net (172.16.0.129) by mx1.thebiz.net with SMTP; 10 May 2000 18:16:57 -0400 Received: (qmail 28699 invoked by uid 0); 10 May 2000 18:16:56 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO maracich) (216.238.69.117) by mail.borg.com with SMTP; 10 May 2000 18:16:56 -0400 X-Sender: maracich@mail.borg.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com From: "Becky L. Maracich" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #84 - 1 msg One reason teaching about plagiarism is important is the intrinsic value of research...just copying something and not synthesizing it is not writing...and our students desperately need to learn that writing is not a mere exercise...rather, it is a form of communication...of impartation...and that they are "sharers" as well as partakers. Becky L. Maracich, Lynn University-Old Forge Center English Instructor t 02:45 PM 5/10/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Send Teaching_Composition maillist submissions to > teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the web, visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com >You can reach the person managing the list at > teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > >(When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >"Re: Contents of Teaching_Composition digest...") > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: plagiarism (Cramer R Cauthen) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:58:30 -0400 (EDT) >From: Cramer R Cauthen >To: Andy Anderson >cc: "'teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com'" >Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] plagiarism > > >To my knowledge, the best way of preempting web-based plagiarism is to >demonstrate to the students that you can find the crib sheets as well as >they can ---- The best way to do so (at least that I know of) is through a >boolean search at www.altavista.com. > >Randy Cauthen, Ph.D. >Visiting Assistant Professor of English >Shippensburg University >crcaut@ark.ship.edu >[717] 477-1305 > >On Wed, 10 May 2000, Andy Anderson wrote: > >> Gail and everyone, >> >> The internet has certainly opened up a world of fresh sources for >> plagiarism--and, of course, an equal number of ways to be caught. >> >> Recently, I received a six page essay copied right off the internet--how >> could I tell? The first clue was the student had not bothered to read what >> he printed off the web. When he copied the document, he somehow lost nearly >> one inch of print on the right margin. He had no idea what words went in >> the missing space. >> >> --Andy Anderson, Johnson County Community College >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. >> > > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > >--__--__---- > >End of Teaching_Composition Digest > > From teaching_composition-admin Wed May 10 19:30:58 2000 Received: from goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.18]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA15967 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 19:30:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ncsu.edu (sdn-ar-002ncraleP335.dialsprint.net [168.191.248.241]) by goose.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05680 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 17:30:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <3919FEF1.B96E53D4@ncsu.edu> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 20:29:38 -0400 From: Chris Anson Reply-To: chris_anson@ncsu.edu Organization: Chris Anson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: "'teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com'" Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] plagiarism References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit When this service was first announced, I went to schoolsucks.com and downloaded a paper, as if I were plagiarizing it off the Internet. Then I sent it on a trial basis to this site and after a day it came back as not matched, i.e., a non-plagiarized paper. That didn't inspire much confidence in the service; perhaps they've improved it since then. But it was, after all, an entire paper from a pretty easily searched source, not a few paragraphs. But because I watch my students develop their work from the earliest ideas right through to the final product, I probably wouldn't have signed up for the service in any case. gail hapke wrote: > www.plagiarism.org also works well. You get a free demo, then you have to > pay thirty bucks for the service, but that's not much if you're signing on > as a program rather than an individual. Gail > > Gail Hapke > Assistant to the Director > Academic Writing Program > University of Illinois > at Urbana-Champaign > > 294 English Building > 608 South Wright Street > Urbana IL 61801 > 217-244-1458 > > On Wed, 10 May 2000, Cramer R Cauthen wrote: > > > > > To my knowledge, the best way of preempting web-based plagiarism is to > > demonstrate to the students that you can find the crib sheets as well as > > they can ---- The best way to do so (at least that I know of) is through a > > boolean search at www.altavista.com. > > > > Randy Cauthen, Ph.D. > > Visiting Assistant Professor of English > > Shippensburg University > > crcaut@ark.ship.edu > > [717] 477-1305 > > > > On Wed, 10 May 2000, Andy Anderson wrote: > > > > > Gail and everyone, > > > > > > The internet has certainly opened up a world of fresh sources for > > > plagiarism--and, of course, an equal number of ways to be caught. > > > > > > Recently, I received a six page essay copied right off the internet--how > > > could I tell? The first clue was the student had not bothered to read what > > > he printed off the web. When he copied the document, he somehow lost nearly > > > one inch of print on the right margin. He had no idea what words went in > > > the missing space. > > > > > > --Andy Anderson, Johnson County Community College > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > > > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > > > > > If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > > > If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. > > > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. -- Chris M. Anson Professor of English Director, Campus Writing and Speaking Program Box 8101 (OR) 131G Tompkins North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC 27695-8105 (919) 513-2577 From teaching_composition-admin Wed May 10 21:03:44 2000 Received: from mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.48]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA17421 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 21:03:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.79.49.162]) by mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000511020307.YZNW3646.mtiwmhc23.worldnet.att.net@worldnet.att.net> for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 02:03:07 +0000 Message-ID: <391A2597.825D95D6@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 22:14:33 -0500 From: "Jean L. Schulte" Reply-To: schulte@worldnet.att.net Organization: Duquesne University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com'" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Another Web Resource--Plagiarism Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been following this thread with interest--especially considering that I have encountered plagiarism on a larger scale this past term than ever before! And I do the things you all say are good to do--students do the papers in increments, they begin this process early on in the process, and I offer frequent feedback on their smaller projects, including office meetings/email tag. But, I think that students do get desperate and they'll do just about anything when it's the night before the paper is due and they're not yet done, including ignoring all their prior work and just downloading a paper from the Internet. One very useful site is: http://www.ussc.alltheweb.com This site enabled me to catch three plagiarists in just one class alone on one paper assignment. One was a student who "revised" his draft copy and turned in quite an essay! This is not a task I relish, in fact, I find it demoralizing and draining--time-wise and otherwise. But, to be fair to those students who earnestly do their work, I tell all my students I do check for plagiarism by checking out the websites. Does anyone still check out books and/or other textual sources anymore? Are we experienceing a near-totality of web-based cheating? Just curious. Has anyone gone so far as to say students can't research using the Internet? There are folks at my department who do so, but I'm wondering what others out there think about this issue. Jean -- Jean Schulte, PhD Candidate, English schulte@att.net schulte@duq.edu Adjunct Faculty--Duquesne University From teaching_composition-admin Wed May 10 21:21:06 2000 Received: from staff1.cso.uiuc.edu (hapke@staff1.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.59]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA18411 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 21:21:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost by staff1.cso.uiuc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA19284; Wed, 10 May 2000 21:21:04 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: staff1.cso.uiuc.edu: hapke owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 21:21:04 -0500 (CDT) From: gail hapke X-Sender: hapke@staff1.cso.uiuc.edu To: Chris Anson cc: "'teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com'" Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] plagiarism In-Reply-To: <3919FEF1.B96E53D4@ncsu.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII We've had pretty good luck with it. It shortened some teachers' research time considerably last semester. But I wonder if schoolsucks.com has worked out a way to protect its materials. Any computer people out there know? Gail Hapke Assistant to the Director Academic Writing Program University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign 294 English Building 608 South Wright Street Urbana IL 61801 217-244-1458 On Wed, 10 May 2000, Chris Anson wrote: > When this service was first announced, I went to schoolsucks.com and downloaded a paper, as if I were plagiarizing it off the Internet. Then I sent it on > a trial basis to this site and after a day it came back as not matched, i.e., a non-plagiarized paper. That didn't inspire much confidence in the > service; perhaps they've improved it since then. But it was, after all, an entire paper from a pretty easily searched source, not a few paragraphs. But > because I watch my students develop their work from the earliest ideas right through to the final product, I probably wouldn't have signed up for the > service in any case. > > gail hapke wrote: > > > www.plagiarism.org also works well. You get a free demo, then you have to > > pay thirty bucks for the service, but that's not much if you're signing on > > as a program rather than an individual. Gail > > > > Gail Hapke > > Assistant to the Director > > Academic Writing Program > > University of Illinois > > at Urbana-Champaign > > > > 294 English Building > > 608 South Wright Street > > Urbana IL 61801 > > 217-244-1458 > > > > On Wed, 10 May 2000, Cramer R Cauthen wrote: > > > > > > > > To my knowledge, the best way of preempting web-based plagiarism is to > > > demonstrate to the students that you can find the crib sheets as well as > > > they can ---- The best way to do so (at least that I know of) is through a > > > boolean search at www.altavista.com. > > > > > > Randy Cauthen, Ph.D. > > > Visiting Assistant Professor of English > > > Shippensburg University > > > crcaut@ark.ship.edu > > > [717] 477-1305 > > > > > > On Wed, 10 May 2000, Andy Anderson wrote: > > > > > > > Gail and everyone, > > > > > > > > The internet has certainly opened up a world of fresh sources for > > > > plagiarism--and, of course, an equal number of ways to be caught. > > > > > > > > Recently, I received a six page essay copied right off the internet--how > > > > could I tell? The first clue was the student had not bothered to read what > > > > he printed off the web. When he copied the document, he somehow lost nearly > > > > one inch of print on the right margin. He had no idea what words went in > > > > the missing space. > > > > > > > > --Andy Anderson, Johnson County Community College > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > > > > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > > > > > > > If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > > > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > > > > > If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > > > If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. > > -- > Chris M. Anson > Professor of English > Director, Campus Writing and Speaking Program > Box 8101 (OR) 131G Tompkins > North Carolina State University > Raleigh, NC 27695-8105 > (919) 513-2577 > > > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. > From teaching_composition-admin Wed May 10 22:27:29 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA19697 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 22:27:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bluestem (bluestem.prairienet.org [192.17.3.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA28463; Wed, 10 May 2000 22:27:24 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 22:27:24 -0500 (CDT) From: "Warren B. Hapke" X-Sender: wbhapke@bluestem To: gail hapke cc: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] plagiarism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 10 May 2000, gail hapke wrote: > We've had pretty good luck with it. It shortened some teachers' research > time considerably last semester. But I wonder if schoolsucks.com has > worked out a way to protect its materials. Any computer people out there > know? There is a way to protect Web material from search engines (robots), by using the "robots" HTML meta tag. Here's the relevant description from Jennifer Niederst, Web Design in a Nutshell (O'Reilly, 1999), p. 101: robots This tag was created as an alternative to the robots.txt file and is mainly used as a way to prevent your page from being indexed by search engine "spiders." It is not well supported, but some people like to include it anyway. The content attibute can take the following values: index (the default), noindex (prevents indexing), nofollow (prevents the search engine from following links on the page), and none (the same as setting "noindex, nofollow"). The robots.txt file mentioned above can also keep search engines from indexing a page. I don't know if plagiarism.org has a way around these blocks or not. Someone mentioned checking for material in AltaVista. Another excellent search engine is Google (http://www.google.com/), which not only indexes the material it finds but keeps copies of some materials in a cache. This can reduce the time needed to retrieve suspect materials, because you don't have to wait for the system to establish a new internet link. It could also be worth searching the internet news groups at Deja News (http://www.deja.com). I find the "classic" power search page the easiest one to use (http://www.deja.com/=dnc/home_ps.shtml). Warren B. Hapke wbhapke@prairienet.org From teaching_composition-admin Wed May 10 22:35:28 2000 Received: from staff2.cso.uiuc.edu (hapke@staff2.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.53]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA19839 for ; Wed, 10 May 2000 22:35:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost by staff2.cso.uiuc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id WAA03562; Wed, 10 May 2000 22:35:15 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: staff2.cso.uiuc.edu: hapke owned process doing -bs Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 22:35:14 -0500 (CDT) From: gail hapke X-Sender: hapke@staff2.cso.uiuc.edu To: "Warren B. Hapke" cc: gail hapke , teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] plagiarism In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 10 May 2000, Warren B. Hapke wrote: > On Wed, 10 May 2000, gail hapke wrote: > Isn't the internet great? I was able to communicate with someone all the way over on the other side of the kitchen. Gail From teaching_composition-admin Thu May 11 07:05:43 2000 Received: from mantaray.intercom.net ([208.236.173.250]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA03427 for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 07:05:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from drallie (s237.intercom.net [208.236.173.83]) by mantaray.intercom.net (8.9.1/8.9.1) with SMTP id IAA20307 for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 08:05:15 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <4.1.20000511073307.00ac96f0@pop3.intercom.net> X-Sender: drallie@pop3.intercom.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.1 Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:09:42 -0400 To: "'teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com'" From: "Allison S. Bartlett, PhD" Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Another Web Resource--Plagiarism In-Reply-To: <391A2597.825D95D6@worldnet.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 10:14 PM 5/10/00 -0500, Jean L. Schulte wrote: SNIP > >Does anyone still check out books and/or other textual sources anymore? >Are we experienceing a near-totality of web-based cheating? Just >curious. Has anyone gone so far as to say students can't research using >the Internet? There are folks at my department who do so, but I'm >wondering what others out there think about this issue. > I have found it necessary to include requirements that some of the sources for documented essays be original, print sources. I also require a range of types of sources, making it difficult for a student to fulfill the assignment unless he or she actually goes to a library. I continue to battle this issue; further, as chair of our Student/Faculty Disciplinary Committee for the past two years, I've become aware of how faculty in other departments -- particularly outside of the humanities -- do not consider plagiarism the academic crime many of us do. (Another VERY frustrating issue for me.) I have gotten very creative in coming up with topics that prevent downloading existing papers, but that effort didn't prevent individual instances of plagiarized passages. I require submission of incremental assignments, including a research plan that details where the student intends to look for individual pieces of information, all of which didn't prevent a plagiarized "revision" at submission. I have tried requiring students to sign a form based on each clause of our departmental policy, where their initials signal an understanding that, for instance, both directly quoted material and paraphrases must be cited. I had more instances of plagiarism the semester that form went into effect than in prior semesters, including the "I didn't know" excuse. I now require sumission of each electronically-retrieved source. I also require photocopies of individual pages from any print source used. For each, I require the student to highlight the passages cited in the essay. I require, as part of the assignment, a balance of paraphrases and quotations, and tell them I will check their final draft against the source material. (Some of this we have done in class in group exercises.) I now refuse to grade a documented essay without the accompanying highlighted material. When I check the initial submissions for these requirements, I do a quick check of the final draft against the sources to see how effectively the student has integrated other voices with his/her own. If I find instances of plagiarism (and I still do, even with these requirements. . .) I return the package to the student and schedule a mandatory appointment. The final grades on these "conferenced" submissions reflect late penalties. While this is more work for me, I think students in my sections exit at the very least with an understanding of why it is important to acknowledge others' ideas, and how to make clear the boundaries between their own commentary and that of others. What is frustrating is that there is little corresponding effort outside our department to do the same. . .. The reponse, when this issue comes up, is either "it's the responsibility of the English department to teach writing. . ." or "I don't have the time to do all that. . ." Slightly Dejected (once again) at the Close of a Semester, Allison From teaching_composition-admin Thu May 11 07:35:35 2000 Received: from mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.52]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id HAA04179 for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 07:35:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.79.49.184]) by mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000511123503.EGVN4781.mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net@worldnet.att.net> for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 12:35:03 +0000 Message-ID: <391AB9B2.1893A026@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:46:28 -0500 From: "Jean L. Schulte" Reply-To: schulte@worldnet.att.net Organization: Duquesne University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "'teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com'" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] More on Plagiarism . . . . Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------4FEDED94EC769D4EC06A5575" --------------4FEDED94EC769D4EC06A5575 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allison Bartlett wrote: > I now require sumission of each electronically-retrieved source. I also > require photocopies of individual pages from any print source used. For > each, I require the student to highlight the passages cited in the essay. > I require, as part of the assignment, a balance of paraphrases and > quotations, and tell them I will check their final draft against the source > material. (Some of this we have done in class in group exercises.) I now > refuse to grade a documented essay without the accompanying highlighted > material. When I check the initial submissions for these requirements, I > do a quick check of the final draft against the sources to see how > effectively the student has integrated other voices with his/her own. If I > find instances of plagiarism (and I still do, even with these requirements. > . .) I return the package to the student and schedule a mandatory > appointment. The final grades on these "conferenced" submissions reflect > late penalties. > Hmm . . . now I see why portfolios are so useful ; ) I'd love to hear about what "works" at least most of the time from others--I'm leaving my post on my department's teaching committee, to allow me to finish my comps/diss, but I really think that these suggestions are helpful and would pass them along! Even if it only validates the work some already do, we know that it's been tried with success elsewhere, and we can tell students that we know we're not the only ones who require such extra work. Jean -- Jean Schulte, PhD Candidate, English schulte@att.net schulte@duq.edu Adjunct Faculty--Duquesne University --------------4FEDED94EC769D4EC06A5575 Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Allison Bartlett wrote:
  
I now require sumission of each electronically-retrieved source.  I also
require photocopies of individual pages from any print source used.  For
each, I require the student to highlight the passages cited in the essay.
I require, as part of the assignment, a balance of paraphrases and
quotations, and tell them I will check their final draft against the source
material.  (Some of this we have done in class in group exercises.)  I now
refuse to grade a documented essay without the accompanying highlighted
material.  When I check the initial submissions for these requirements, I
do a quick check of the final draft against the sources to see how
effectively the student has integrated other voices with his/her own.  If I
find instances of plagiarism (and I still do, even with these requirements.
. .) I return the package to the student and schedule a mandatory
appointment.  The final grades on these "conferenced" submissions reflect
late penalties.


Hmm . . . now I see why portfolios are so useful ;  )

I'd love to hear about what "works" at least most of the time from others--I'm leaving my post on my department's teaching committee, to allow me to finish my comps/diss, but I really think that these suggestions are helpful and would pass them along!  Even if it only validates the work some already do, we know that it's been tried with success elsewhere, and we can tell students that we know we're not the only ones who require such extra work.

Jean
--
Jean Schulte, PhD Candidate, English
schulte@att.net
schulte@duq.edu
Adjunct Faculty--Duquesne University
  --------------4FEDED94EC769D4EC06A5575-- From teaching_composition-admin Thu May 11 12:29:58 2000 Received: from norwich.edu (norwich.edu [192.149.109.19]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA10236 for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 12:29:57 -0500 (CDT) From: emurray@norwich.edu Received: from numail01.norwich.edu by norwich.edu; (5.65v3.2/1.1.8.2/15Jan95-1221PM) id AA26181; Thu, 11 May 2000 13:33:16 -0400 Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #84 - 1 msg To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Cc: Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:30:35 GMT Message-Id: X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-Mimetrack: Serialize by Router on numail01/Norwich(Release 5.0 |March 30, 1999) at 05/11/2000 01:30:36 PM Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I have heard from a prof who spent many years in China and Taiwan that Asian cultures view the copying of sources as the *best* way to demonstrate konwledge of the material, and hence the concept of plagiarism is not the same as ours. Perhaps rooted in their cultural values of community vs. individual ownership. Don't know if he's correct, but it adds an interesting view of the issue. "Becky L. Maracich" @mailman.eppg.com on 05/10/2000 06:23:39 PM Sent by: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com cc: Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #84 - 1 msg One reason teaching about plagiarism is important is the intrinsic value of research...just copying something and not synthesizing it is not writing...and our students desperately need to learn that writing is not a mere exercise...rather, it is a form of communication...of impartation...and that they are "sharers" as well as partakers. Becky L. Maracich, Lynn University-Old Forge Center English Instructor t 02:45 PM 5/10/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Send Teaching_Composition maillist submissions to > teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the web, visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com >You can reach the person managing the list at > teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > >(When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >"Re: Contents of Teaching_Composition digest...") > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: plagiarism (Cramer R Cauthen) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:58:30 -0400 (EDT) >From: Cramer R Cauthen >To: Andy Anderson >cc: "'teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com'" >Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] plagiarism > > >To my knowledge, the best way of preempting web-based plagiarism is to >demonstrate to the students that you can find the crib sheets as well as >they can ---- The best way to do so (at least that I know of) is through a >boolean search at www.altavista.com. > >Randy Cauthen, Ph.D. >Visiting Assistant Professor of English >Shippensburg University >crcaut@ark.ship.edu >[717] 477-1305 > >On Wed, 10 May 2000, Andy Anderson wrote: > >> Gail and everyone, >> >> The internet has certainly opened up a world of fresh sources for >> plagiarism--and, of course, an equal number of ways to be caught. >> >> Recently, I received a six page essay copied right off the internet--how >> could I tell? The first clue was the student had not bothered to read what >> he printed off the web. When he copied the document, he somehow lost nearly >> one inch of print on the right margin. He had no idea what words went in >> the missing space. >> >> --Andy Anderson, Johnson County Community College >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. >> > > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > >--__--__---- > >End of Teaching_Composition Digest > > _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. From teaching_composition-admin Thu May 11 13:49:46 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA11801 for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 13:49:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (TRENT [140.239.69.82]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id KDKA33DN; Thu, 11 May 2000 15:05:26 -0400 Message-ID: <01e401bfbb79$bbffbe80$5245ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: "teachingcomp" References: Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] plagiarism Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 14:50:10 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Gail and Warren: Judy and I do this all the time (Judy Williamson, my wife -- communicating by email while in adjoining rooms). Worse: our daughter calls us from the bathroom using her cell phone, while we watch a movie on our VCR, asking if she can use the jets in the Jacuzzi she's just immersed herself in. Have we ventured into Alice's Wonderland? Trent ----- Original Message ----- From: "gail hapke" To: "Warren B. Hapke" Cc: "gail hapke" ; Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 11:35 PM Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] plagiarism > > On Wed, 10 May 2000, Warren B. Hapke wrote: > > > On Wed, 10 May 2000, gail hapke wrote: > > > > Isn't the internet great? I was able to communicate with someone all the > way over on the other side of the kitchen. > > Gail > > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. From teaching_composition-admin Thu May 11 14:40:38 2000 Received: from snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.62]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA13109 for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 14:40:38 -0500 (CDT) Received: from brezina (dialup-63.208.242.176.LosAngeles1.Level3.net [63.208.242.176]) by snipe.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA15018 for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 12:40:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "Jennifer Brezina" To: Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] Another Web Resource--Plagiarism Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 12:38:42 -0700 Message-ID: <000201bfbb80$835113c0$b0f2d03f@brezina> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 In-Reply-To: <391A2597.825D95D6@worldnet.att.net> Importance: Normal One thing that I do is to require specific sources (at least one article from the LA Times, for instance -- it changes each assignment) to be included in the essay. I also require that photocopies of the sources be stapled to the essay, so I can check up on them. Plagiarism is certainly still possible, but it is much more difficult. Jennifer Brezina Department of English UC Riverside -----Original Message----- From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com [mailto:teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com]On Behalf Of Jean L. Schulte Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2000 8:15 PM To: 'teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com' Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Another Web Resource--Plagiarism I've been following this thread with interest--especially considering that I have encountered plagiarism on a larger scale this past term than ever before! And I do the things you all say are good to do--students do the papers in increments, they begin this process early on in the process, and I offer frequent feedback on their smaller projects, including office meetings/email tag. But, I think that students do get desperate and they'll do just about anything when it's the night before the paper is due and they're not yet done, including ignoring all their prior work and just downloading a paper from the Internet. One very useful site is: http://www.ussc.alltheweb.com This site enabled me to catch three plagiarists in just one class alone on one paper assignment. One was a student who "revised" his draft copy and turned in quite an essay! This is not a task I relish, in fact, I find it demoralizing and draining--time-wise and otherwise. But, to be fair to those students who earnestly do their work, I tell all my students I do check for plagiarism by checking out the websites. Does anyone still check out books and/or other textual sources anymore? Are we experienceing a near-totality of web-based cheating? Just curious. Has anyone gone so far as to say students can't research using the Internet? There are folks at my department who do so, but I'm wondering what others out there think about this issue. Jean -- Jean Schulte, PhD Candidate, English schulte@att.net schulte@duq.edu Adjunct Faculty--Duquesne University _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. From teaching_composition-admin Thu May 11 17:13:25 2000 Received: from firefly.prairienet.org (firefly.prairienet.org [192.17.3.3]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA16768 for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 17:13:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bluestem (bluestem.prairienet.org [192.17.3.4]) by firefly.prairienet.org (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05296; Thu, 11 May 2000 17:13:21 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 17:13:19 -0500 (CDT) From: "Warren B. Hapke" X-Sender: wbhapke@bluestem To: Trent Batson cc: teachingcomp Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] plagiarism In-Reply-To: <01e401bfbb79$bbffbe80$5245ef8c@ULT> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 11 May 2000, Trent Batson wrote: > Gail and Warren: Judy and I do this all the time (Judy Williamson, my > wife -- communicating by email while in adjoining rooms). Worse: our > daughter calls us from the bathroom using her cell phone, while we watch a > movie on our VCR, asking if she can use the jets in the Jacuzzi she's just > immersed herself in. Gail saw the passage from the book in real life before seeing on the net. We don't normally communicate by email when we're both at home, and we don't (yet) own a cell phone, though I work for a major cell phone manufacturer. > > Have we ventured into Alice's Wonderland? We're getting there..... > > Trent Warren From teaching_composition-admin Thu May 11 19:43:49 2000 Received: from mx1.thebiz.net (mx1.thebiz.net [216.238.0.20]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA19418 for ; Thu, 11 May 2000 19:43:48 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 19:43:48 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200005120043.TAA19418@greenhouse.eppg.com> Received: (qmail 24742 invoked from network); 11 May 2000 20:43:49 -0400 Received: from mail2.thebiz.net (172.16.0.129) by mx1.thebiz.net with SMTP; 11 May 2000 20:43:49 -0400 Received: (qmail 11896 invoked by uid 0); 11 May 2000 20:43:48 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO maracich) (216.238.70.6) by mail.borg.com with SMTP; 11 May 2000 20:43:48 -0400 X-Sender: maracich@mail.borg.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com From: "Becky L. Maracich" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] reply on plagiarism Ms. Schulte, I often require a mix of books and internet...I teach LD college students and the 'net is a wonderful way for them to access information...often they are intimidated with texts while absolutely at home with the computer...you can't buck progress, and for LD students, if it works then you use it. Becky L. Maracich=Lynn University-Old Forge Center At 09:03 PM 5/10/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Send Teaching_Composition maillist submissions to > teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the web, visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com >You can reach the person managing the list at > teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > >(When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >"Re: Contents of Teaching_Composition digest...") > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Another Web Resource--Plagiarism (Jean L. Schulte) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 22:14:33 -0500 >From: "Jean L. Schulte" >Reply-To: schulte@worldnet.att.net >Organization: Duquesne University >To: "'teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com'" > >Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Another Web Resource--Plagiarism > >I've been following this thread with interest--especially considering >that I have encountered plagiarism on a larger scale this past term than >ever before! And I do the things you all say are good to do--students >do the papers in increments, they begin this process early on in the >process, and I offer frequent feedback on their smaller projects, >including office meetings/email tag. But, I think that students do get >desperate and they'll do just about anything when it's the night before >the paper is due and they're not yet done, including ignoring all their >prior work and just downloading a paper from the Internet. One very >useful site is: > >http://www.ussc.alltheweb.com > > >This site enabled me to catch three plagiarists in just one class alone >on one paper assignment. One was a student who "revised" his draft copy >and turned in quite an essay! This is not a task I relish, in fact, I >find it demoralizing and draining--time-wise and otherwise. But, to be >fair to those students who earnestly do their work, I tell all my >students I do check for plagiarism by checking out the websites. > > >Does anyone still check out books and/or other textual sources anymore? >Are we experienceing a near-totality of web-based cheating? Just >curious. Has anyone gone so far as to say students can't research using >the Internet? There are folks at my department who do so, but I'm >wondering what others out there think about this issue. > >Jean > > >-- >Jean Schulte, PhD Candidate, English >schulte@att.net >schulte@duq.edu >Adjunct Faculty--Duquesne University > > > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > >--__--__---- > >End of Teaching_Composition Digest > > From teaching_composition-admin Fri May 12 06:54:36 2000 Received: from f04n07.cac.psu.edu (f04s07.cac.psu.edu [128.118.141.35]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id GAA06045 for ; Fri, 12 May 2000 06:54:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pavilion (access-isdn1-22.sl.psu.edu [146.186.105.216]) by f04n07.cac.psu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA95156 for ; Fri, 12 May 2000 07:54:34 -0400 From: "Billie Jones" To: Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #84 - 1msg Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 07:57:02 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook IMO, Build 9.0.2416 (9.0.2910.0) Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2615.200 [If this is a duplicate post, I apologize. I'm not sure whether this made it to the list or not--Billie] Actually, this practice is part of rhetoric's heritage. At various times in rhetoric's history, copying and imitation, have been used to enhance learning and improve writing skills. Our concept of authorial ownership, and with it definitions of plagiarism, came about only with modernity and the valorization of the individual over community. I would argue (here, and in a proposal for a CCCC presentation I'm working on) that our current emphasis on building learning communities, both through peer responding and collaborative projects, may indicate a shift back to a time that celebrates community over the individual. Although I realize the risk involved (loss of ownership of words and ideas--an academic's most tangible capital), I believe that we need to adapt our definitions of plagiarism to reflect this shift. As has already been mentioned, different disciplines already have different definitions for plagiarism, and I think that we need to teach our students to deal with expectations of and systems of documentation that are fluid and situational. Billie Jones, Assistant Professor of Humanities and Writing Penn State - Capital College E-mail: bjj6@psu.edu -----Original Message----- From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com ]On Behalf Of emurray@norwich.edu Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2000 1:31 PM To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #84 - 1msg I have heard from a prof who spent many years in China and Taiwan that Asian cultures view the copying of sources as the *best* way to demonstrate konwledge of the material, and hence the concept of plagiarism is not the same as ours. Perhaps rooted in their cultural values of community vs. individual ownership. Don't know if he's correct, but it adds an interesting view of the issue. "Becky L. Maracich" @mailman.eppg.com on 05/10/2000 06:23:39 PM Sent by: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com cc: Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #84 - 1 msg One reason teaching about plagiarism is important is the intrinsic value of research...just copying something and not synthesizing it is not writing...and our students desperately need to learn that writing is not a mere exercise...rather, it is a form of communication...of impartation...and that they are "sharers" as well as partakers. Becky L. Maracich, Lynn University-Old Forge Center English Instructor t 02:45 PM 5/10/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Send Teaching_Composition maillist submissions to > teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the web, visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com >You can reach the person managing the list at > teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > >(When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >"Re: Contents of Teaching_Composition digest...") > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: plagiarism (Cramer R Cauthen) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >Date: Wed, 10 May 2000 15:58:30 -0400 (EDT) >From: Cramer R Cauthen >To: Andy Anderson >cc: "'teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com'" >Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] plagiarism > > >To my knowledge, the best way of preempting web-based plagiarism is to >demonstrate to the students that you can find the crib sheets as well as >they can ---- The best way to do so (at least that I know of) is through a >boolean search at www.altavista.com. > >Randy Cauthen, Ph.D. >Visiting Assistant Professor of English >Shippensburg University >crcaut@ark.ship.edu >[717] 477-1305 > >On Wed, 10 May 2000, Andy Anderson wrote: > >> Gail and everyone, >> >> The internet has certainly opened up a world of fresh sources for >> plagiarism--and, of course, an equal number of ways to be caught. >> >> Recently, I received a six page essay copied right off the internet--how >> could I tell? The first clue was the student had not bothered to read what >> he printed off the web. When he copied the document, he somehow lost nearly >> one inch of print on the right margin. He had no idea what words went in >> the missing space. >> >> --Andy Anderson, Johnson County Community College >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. >> > > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > >--__--__---- > >End of Teaching_Composition Digest > > _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. _______________________________________________ Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. From teaching_composition-admin Fri May 12 10:10:50 2000 Received: from staff1.cso.uiuc.edu (hapke@staff1.cso.uiuc.edu [128.174.5.59]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA10730 for ; Fri, 12 May 2000 10:10:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost by staff1.cso.uiuc.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA21127; Fri, 12 May 2000 10:10:35 -0500 (CDT) X-Authentication-Warning: staff1.cso.uiuc.edu: hapke owned process doing -bs Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:10:35 -0500 (CDT) From: gail hapke X-Sender: hapke@staff1.cso.uiuc.edu To: Billie Jones cc: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #84 - 1msg In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 12 May 2000, Billie Jones wrote: > I would argue (here, and in a proposal for a CCCC presentation I'm working > on) that our current emphasis on building learning communities, both through > peer responding and collaborative projects, may indicate a shift back to a > time that celebrates community over the individual. Although I realize the > risk involved (loss of ownership of words and ideas--an academic's most > tangible capital), I believe that we need to adapt our definitions of > plagiarism to reflect this shift. As has already been mentioned, different > disciplines already have different definitions for plagiarism, and I think > that we need to teach our students to deal with expectations of and systems > of documentation that are fluid and situational. Other factors are also adding to the shift away from the radical individualism of Romantic and post-Romantic modernism. Communication has become much more rapid and has taken far more forms than in the past, many of them quite ephemeral (eg., email traffic, chatrooms, etc.) Yours, mine and ours have become much more obviously fuzzy categories in an era of fast-moving, multimodal, hypertextual commmunication (I would argue that they always were fuzzy categories and that text has always been hypertextual in the mind of the reader). In the modern workplace, especially the high-tech workplace, people have noticed this and learned to work with the communal trend rather than against it. Academia will have to learn to adapt as well, not just for theoretical reasons but for very practical ones, and not just in the Tech Writing courses. On another listserv the discussion of plagiarism and the nature of text/intertext, etc. has apparently ended on a note of "thus I refute it" (Dr. Johnson kicks a stone to remind Bishop Berkeley that reality does too exist...) Enough theorizing....plagiarism is like pornography--we know it when we see it. Is this an adequate response? Is theory really so far removed from practice as all that? Obviously, I don't think so. But what does the rest of the list believe? Should we declare an end to theorizing and just deal with plagiarism as a rock we can engage by a swift kick? Gail From teaching_composition-admin Sun May 14 07:44:28 2000 Received: from mx1.thebiz.net (mx1.thebiz.net [216.238.0.20]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id HAA10390 for ; Sun, 14 May 2000 07:44:28 -0500 (CDT) Date: Sun, 14 May 2000 07:44:28 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200005141244.HAA10390@greenhouse.eppg.com> Received: (qmail 14572 invoked from network); 14 May 2000 08:44:26 -0400 Received: from mail2.thebiz.net (172.16.0.129) by mx1.thebiz.net with SMTP; 14 May 2000 08:44:26 -0400 Received: (qmail 22122 invoked by uid 0); 14 May 2000 08:44:25 -0400 Received: from unknown (HELO maracich) (216.238.70.61) by mail.borg.com with SMTP; 14 May 2000 08:44:25 -0400 X-Sender: maracich@mail.borg.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com From: "Becky L. Maracich" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] help I wish to usnsubcribe as my email is very congested. Becky L. Maracich t 10:11 AM 5/12/00 -0500, you wrote: > >Send Teaching_Composition maillist submissions to > teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the web, visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com >You can reach the person managing the list at > teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > >(When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >"Re: Contents of Teaching_Composition digest...") > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. RE: Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 > #84 - 1msg (gail hapke) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 10:10:35 -0500 (CDT) >From: gail hapke >To: Billie Jones >cc: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 >#84 - 1msg > > >On Fri, 12 May 2000, Billie Jones wrote: > >> I would argue (here, and in a proposal for a CCCC presentation I'm working >> on) that our current emphasis on building learning communities, both through >> peer responding and collaborative projects, may indicate a shift back to a >> time that celebrates community over the individual. Although I realize the >> risk involved (loss of ownership of words and ideas--an academic's most >> tangible capital), I believe that we need to adapt our definitions of >> plagiarism to reflect this shift. As has already been mentioned, different >> disciplines already have different definitions for plagiarism, and I think >> that we need to teach our students to deal with expectations of and systems >> of documentation that are fluid and situational. > >Other factors are also adding to the shift away from the radical >individualism of Romantic and post-Romantic modernism. Communication has >become much more rapid and has taken far more forms than in the past, many >of them quite ephemeral (eg., email traffic, chatrooms, etc.) Yours, mine >and ours have become much more obviously fuzzy categories in an era of >fast-moving, multimodal, hypertextual commmunication (I would argue that >they always were fuzzy categories and that text has always been >hypertextual in the mind of the reader). In the modern workplace, >especially the high-tech workplace, people have noticed this and learned >to work with the communal trend rather than against it. Academia will have >to learn to adapt as well, not just for theoretical reasons but for very >practical ones, and not just in the Tech Writing courses. > >On another listserv the discussion of plagiarism and the nature of >text/intertext, etc. has apparently ended on a note of "thus I refute it" >(Dr. Johnson kicks a stone to remind Bishop Berkeley that reality does too >exist...) Enough theorizing....plagiarism is like pornography--we know it >when we see it. Is this an adequate response? Is theory really so far >removed from practice as all that? Obviously, I don't think so. But what >does the rest of the list believe? Should we declare an end to theorizing >and just deal with plagiarism as a rock we can engage by a swift kick? > >Gail > > > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > >--__--__---- > >End of Teaching_Composition Digest > > From teaching_composition-admin Mon May 15 13:46:35 2000 Received: from mail4.uts.ohio-state.edu (mail4.uts.ohio-state.edu [128.146.214.33]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA19545 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 13:46:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: from osu.edu (expo72.uts.ohio-state.edu [164.107.8.72]) by mail4.uts.ohio-state.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA17254 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 14:39:24 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <392045E3.B237643C@osu.edu> Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 14:45:55 -0400 From: Vandana Gavaskar X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] please unsubscribe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is my 4th e-mail requesting to be unsubscribed. Please do so. From teaching_composition-admin Mon May 15 14:53:37 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA21119 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 14:53:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (TRENT [140.239.69.107]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id KDKAPB6C; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:09:52 -0400 Message-ID: <01f201bfbea7$503798e0$6b45ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: "teachingcomp" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Welcome Bill Condon! Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 15:53:59 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_01EF_01BFBE85.C89FB1E0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_01EF_01BFBE85.C89FB1E0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When I first saw Gail Hapke's topic, about plagiarism, I worried we'd = not have a very active discussion. Well, so much for what *I* know! = Gail, you did a wonderful job. I never could have imagined we'd have = such a lively discussion about something I prefer not to think about. I = think the discussion brought in all kinds of other considerations, = however, such as how we relate to our students, their view of us, = whether individual authorship and originality is a mere illusion, and so = on. And, now we have Bill Condon of Washington State University, Director of = the Writing Programs there, who is well known for his work on portfolio = assessment, but who now proposes to talk about, uh, email??? Yes, email. = =20 See his materials at: http://www.mhhe.com/socscience/english/tc/ His subtitle: Using E-Mail to Support Learning, While Still Having Time for a Life Welcome, Bill. Trent _________________ Trent Batson, Ph.D., Consultant WebCT Two Corporation Way Peabody, MA 01960 978-538-0036 401-225-5009 (cell) 978-538-0309 (fax) www.webct.com trent.batson@webct.com ------=_NextPart_000_01EF_01BFBE85.C89FB1E0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

When I first saw Gail Hapke's topic, = about=20 plagiarism, I worried we'd not have a very active discussion.  = Well, so=20 much for what *I* know!  Gail, you did a wonderful job.  I = never could=20 have imagined we'd have such a lively discussion about something I = prefer not to=20 think about.  I think the discussion brought in all kinds of other=20 considerations, however, such as how we relate to our students, their = view of=20 us, whether individual authorship and originality is a mere illusion, = and so=20 on.
 
And, now we have Bill Condon of = Washington State=20 University, Director of the Writing Programs there, who is well known = for his=20 work on portfolio assessment, but who now proposes to talk about, uh, = email???=20 Yes, email. 
 
See his materials at:
 
http://www.mhhe.com/s= ocscience/english/tc/
 
His subtitle:
 
Using E-Mail to = Support=20 Learning, While Still Having Time for a Life
 
Welcome, = Bill.
 
Trent

_________________
Trent Batson,=20 Ph.D.,
Consultant
WebCT
Two Corporation Way
Peabody, MA=20 01960
 
978-538-0036
401-225-5009 = (cell)
978-538-0309=20 (fax)
www.webct.com
trent.batson@webct.com
------=_NextPart_000_01EF_01BFBE85.C89FB1E0-- From teaching_composition-admin Mon May 15 15:07:27 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA22124 for ; Mon, 15 May 2000 15:07:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (TRENT [140.239.69.107]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id KDKAPCAN; Mon, 15 May 2000 16:23:43 -0400 Message-ID: <021001bfbea9$3f6b2480$6b45ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: "teachingcomp" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] "please unsubscribe" Date: Mon, 15 May 2000 16:07:51 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_020D_01BFBE87.B8505CC0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_020D_01BFBE87.B8505CC0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable For everyone: remember that one of the list administrators doesn't have = to unsubscribe for you -- you can just follow these directions (included = with each email message): If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to = http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to update = your information. (and pardon the spelling error). I will unsubscribe you, Vandana, and sorry for the difficulty you = experienced. =20 Trent _________________ Trent Batson, Ph.D., Consultant WebCT Two Corporation Way Peabody, MA 01960 978-538-0036 401-225-5009 (cell) 978-538-0309 (fax) www.webct.com trent.batson@webct.com ------=_NextPart_000_020D_01BFBE87.B8505CC0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
For everyone:  remember that one = of the list=20 administrators doesn't have to unsubscribe for you -- you can just = follow these=20 directions (included with each email message):
 
If you no longer wish to recieve this = mailing=20 please go to ht= tp://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition=20 to update your information.
 
(and pardon the spelling = error).
 
I will unsubscribe you, Vandana, and = sorry for the=20 difficulty you experienced. 
 
Trent
_________________
Trent = Batson,=20 Ph.D.,
Consultant
WebCT
Two Corporation Way
Peabody, MA=20 01960
 
978-538-0036
401-225-5009 = (cell)
978-538-0309=20 (fax)
www.webct.com
trent.batson@webct.com
------=_NextPart_000_020D_01BFBE87.B8505CC0-- From teaching_composition-admin Tue May 16 12:51:23 2000 Received: from cheetah.it.wsu.edu (root@cheetah.it.wsu.edu [134.121.1.8]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA23913 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 12:51:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [134.121.50.183] (condon.engl.wsu.edu [134.121.50.183]) by cheetah.it.wsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id KAA06192 for ; Tue, 16 May 2000 10:51:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: bcondon@mail.wsu.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 16 May 2000 10:48:26 -0700 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com From: bcondon@wsu.edu (Bill Condon) Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Hello! Thanks for that nice intro, Trent. And thanks for putting me back on the list. I was subscribed earlier, but somehow got lost, I guess. Anyhow, it's good to be here with you all, and I'm looking forward to discussions around using e-mail in classes. Bill Bill Condon, Director English Department, Avery 202 WSU Writing Programs Washington State University Phone: (509) 335-2268 Pullman, WA 99164-5046 FAX: (509) 335-2582 e-mail: bcondon@wsu.edu http://www.wsu.edu/~bcondon/ From teaching_composition-admin Tue May 30 15:49:29 2000 Received: from cs1.wauknet.com (cs1.wauknet.com [156.46.216.10]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA07071 for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 15:49:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from krahn ([156.46.216.29]) by cs1.wauknet.com (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-52091U1300L100S0V35) with ESMTP id com for ; Tue, 30 May 2000 15:50:50 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000529213640.00a4b5d0@mail.wauknet.com> X-Sender: krahn@mail.wauknet.com X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 22:09:33 -0500 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com From: "Albert E. Krahn" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Avoiding plagiarism Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I see that the list has gone dead for a week or so now so I have room to say something about plagiarism. Everyone's gone to the C&W conference, apparently. The best way to avoid plagiarism, as someone has already said, is to frame assignments that make it nearly impossible. The first research paper I ever had to do involved what we might now call the "casebook" method. A number of books were placed in the library on one shelf. Everyone in the class had to use the same books and every paper was on the same subject. The instructor knew the books backward and forward and could tell if you were quoting from them without attribution. This strikes me as a good way to develop good habits for students. This was sort of a trial run for the next and final paper, which was a topic of our choice. However, most teachers of comp today don't have time for more than one research paper. If so, then frame the topic tightly. For example, my experience was in a technical college. Almost every student already had a career goal. I used that to set the topic for research papers. I originally got this idea from a similar assignment at Mason City Community College in Mason City, Iowa. First of all, divide the assignment into many parts: proposal (which includes some preliminary research); bibliography cards; note cards; rough out (title page, t of c, any two pages from the final paper showing documentation, and bibliography); final draft of the paper. Each part is graded separately. (Hey, you are supposed to be teaching the process, aren't you?) Prop = 10; 30 bib cards = 20; 30 note cards= 20; rough out = 50/10 for each page; final paper= 150 points. Total 250 points. Those students who didn't do the initial parts of the assignment were not allowed to turn in only a final paper. In fact, all the parts must be turned in again with the final paper. They must be warned about this severely. A final paper without the parts will not be graded. Period. Items were due at about 2 week intervals. This assignment is given out at the beginning of the semester. The proposal sheet contains certain directions: The student must locate a problem, issue, or difficulty in the career area that student has chosen. Most often, students have already heard about some of these things in other classes devoted to their careers. They can then do some preliminary research to find out if they will find enough material to do a paper, and they provide some of those sources in the proposal, also which libraries they found them in. Also, they include a judgment about whether or not there will be enough sources for a decent paper. There are more details to all this, but you can see that the assignment is so tightly related to something that the students are supposed to be interested in--that is, their own career area--that they have little incentive to look elsewhere. Also, they aren't going to find papers in the public domain very easily that match this assignment. If anyone plagiarized a paper in the many years that I used the assignment, they were so good at concealing it that they deserved the grade anyhow. However, I believe that those who were intent on plagiarism quickly discovered the impossiblity of doing it and dropped out of the class instead. It certainly made me feel as if the students were really learning something about doing research papers, rather than mickey mouse games about whether or not a paper turned in at the end of the semester was really something the student did. Those students who claimed they had no career goal were counseled at a conference, the purpose of which was to locate a topic they had an interest in and might want to do a paper on. This was usually enough to avoid plagiarism right away. You'd steer them away from the usual garbage. Try it. You'll like it. akra From teaching_composition-admin Mon Jun 5 10:30:56 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA07866 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 10:30:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (webct174.webct.com [140.239.69.174]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id KDKATMXT; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:47:03 -0400 Message-ID: <002101bfcf03$076e8bc0$ae45ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: "teachingcomp" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] A Conversational Overture Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 11:30:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_001E_01BFCEE1.8042FB20" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BFCEE1.8042FB20 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello to all from your inattentive uber-moderator. Bill Condon and I = both were distracted by the Computers and Writing Conference in Ft Worth = hosted by Texas Woman's University, and thus our silence. Bill Condon, = director of the writing programs at Washington State University has been = our featured disciplinary leader for the past couple of weeks. His = focus has been on email. But, the conference coming in the middle of = Bill's time means we haven't talked much. Bet you forgot you were ever = subscribed! Email (Bill's topic) is our dominant written form (?), genre (?), medium = (?) and yet this phenomenon which invaded our lives is very little = understood by any of us in the business of teaching others to write. =20 For one last brief day while we post the next module on our teaching = comp web page, we can email each other ABOUT email. Join Bill and me. = Look at the Web page for Bill's material on email: = http://www.mhhe.com/socscience/english/tc/ This list -- Teaching Composition -- was designed with TAs, adjunct = faculty, part timers, and junior faculty in mind -- so we (Bill, I, and = McGraw-Hill, our sponsor) would appreciate you mentioning this list to = appropriate people in your department. Our Web site is at http://www.mhhe.com/socscience/english/tc/ Cheers, Trent _________________ Trent Batson, Ph.D., Consultant WebCT Two Corporation Way Peabody, MA 01960 978-538-0036 401-225-5009 (cell) 978-538-0309 (fax) www.webct.com trent.batson@webct.com ------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BFCEE1.8042FB20 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello to all from your inattentive=20 uber-moderator.  Bill Condon and I both were distracted by the = Computers=20 and Writing Conference in Ft Worth hosted by Texas Woman's University, = and thus=20 our silence.  Bill Condon, director of the writing programs at = Washington=20 State University has been our featured disciplinary leader for the past = couple=20 of weeks.  His focus has been on email.  But, the conference = coming in=20 the middle of Bill's time means we haven't talked much.  Bet you = forgot you=20 were ever subscribed!
 
Email (Bill's topic) is our dominant = written form=20 (?), genre (?), medium (?) and yet this phenomenon which invaded = our lives=20 is very little understood by any of us in the business of teaching = others to=20 write. 
 
For one last brief day while we post = the next=20 module on our teaching comp web page, we can email each other ABOUT = email. =20 Join Bill and me.  Look at the Web page for Bill's material on = email: =20 http://www.mhhe.com/s= ocscience/english/tc/
 
This list -- Teaching Composition -- = was designed=20 with TAs, adjunct faculty, part timers, and junior faculty in mind -- so = we=20 (Bill, I, and McGraw-Hill, our sponsor) would appreciate you mentioning = this=20 list to appropriate people in your department.
 
Our Web site is at http://www.mhhe.com/s= ocscience/english/tc/
 
Cheers,
Trent
_________________
Trent = Batson,=20 Ph.D.,
Consultant
WebCT
Two Corporation Way
Peabody, MA=20 01960
 
978-538-0036
401-225-5009 = (cell)
978-538-0309=20 (fax)
www.webct.com
trent.batson@webct.com
------=_NextPart_000_001E_01BFCEE1.8042FB20-- From teaching_composition-admin Mon Jun 5 14:52:04 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA12631 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:52:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (webct174.webct.com [140.239.69.174]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id KDKATQ12; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 16:08:18 -0400 Message-ID: <010301bfcf27$84041f00$ae45ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: "teachingcomp" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Paul Heilker, Virginia Tech Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 15:52:00 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0100_01BFCF05.FC96F180" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0100_01BFCF05.FC96F180 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Starting today and continuing for the rest of the month is a focus on = materials generated by: Jennifer Barton, Paul Heilker, and David Rutkowski at Virginia Tech. = Their topic is: Fostering Effective Classroom Discussions. =20 At the McGraw-Hill teaching comp Web site,=20 http://www.mhhe.com/socscience/english/tc/ you can read both a concise series of suggestions about leading a good = class discussion, and a list of resources about the same topic. Paul is in the English Department at VT; his CV is included on his site. = I'll let Paul introduce his collaborators for the materials he's posted = here. Note that you can click on three active areas on the Web site regarding = this month's materials: on Paul's name for his personal info, on the = title of the brief article "Fostering Effective Classroom Discussions" = for the article, and on "A Selective List of Online Resources" for the = resources. Welcome, Paul, Jennifer and David. Trent _________________ Trent Batson, Ph.D., Consultant WebCT Two Corporation Way Peabody, MA 01960 978-538-0036 401-225-5009 (cell) 978-538-0309 (fax) www.webct.com trent.batson@webct.com ------=_NextPart_000_0100_01BFCF05.FC96F180 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Starting today and continuing for the = rest of the=20 month is a focus on materials generated by:
 
Jennifer Barton, Paul Heilker, = and David=20 Rutkowski at Virginia Tech.  Their topic is:  Fostering Effective = Classroom=20 Discussions. 
 
At the McGraw-Hill = teaching comp Web=20 site,
http://www.mhhe.com/s= ocscience/english/tc/
you can read both a concise = series of=20 suggestions about leading a good class discussion, and a list of = resources about=20 the same topic.
 
Paul is in the English Department = at VT; his=20 CV is included on his site.  I'll let Paul introduce his = collaborators for=20 the materials he's posted here.
 
Note that you can click on three = active areas=20 on the Web site regarding this month's materials:  on Paul's name = for his=20 personal info, on the title of the brief article "Fostering Effective = Classroom=20 Discussions" for the article, and on "A Selective List of Online = Resources" for=20 the resources.
 
Welcome, Paul, Jennifer and=20 David.
 
Trent

_________________
Trent Batson,=20 Ph.D.,
Consultant
WebCT
Two Corporation Way
Peabody, MA=20 01960
 
978-538-0036
401-225-5009 = (cell)
978-538-0309=20 (fax)
www.webct.com
trent.batson@webct.com
------=_NextPart_000_0100_01BFCF05.FC96F180-- From teaching_composition-admin Mon Jun 5 15:04:37 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA12971 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 15:04:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (webct174.webct.com [140.239.69.174]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id KDKATQ29; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 16:20:56 -0400 Message-ID: <010c01bfcf29$47ff84c0$ae45ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: "teachingcomp" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Comments about this list Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 16:04:39 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_000_0109_01BFCF07.C0DD1BE0" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0109_01BFCF07.C0DD1BE0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Colleagues: We had an interesting discussion about running an email = discussion list last Friday. We looked at the delicate balance between = "staying on task" and "social chat" on a list such as Teaching Comp. We = talked about lists with an active list owner and ones without. =20 We have well over 200 people on this list and, if left to the = self-organizing principles of most email lists in our field, would ebb = and flow around threads that emerged. This would happen naturally. The = pleasure of this is the great interchanges that develop; the pain is = having, sometimes, 70 new email messages in your inbox one morning when = you log in, 50 of them from the same list. We are experimenting in doing a technically unmoderated but in practice = moderated list. In other words, anyone can post anything, but at the = same time we have me, the ongoing moderator, and we have the guest = moderator -- Bill Condon just ending, Paul Heilker just starting, both = of whom keep the conversation focused on the topic at hand. Would it be better to allow a bit of free discussion? Do you all even = know that you are free to post without our permission? Or is it best to keep the discussion focused on the topic of the moment? We think the latter is better, but I hope that all of you know you can = post to the list yourself. Trent _________________ Trent Batson, Ph.D., Consultant WebCT Two Corporation Way Peabody, MA 01960 978-538-0036 401-225-5009 (cell) 978-538-0309 (fax) www.webct.com trent.batson@webct.com ------=_NextPart_000_0109_01BFCF07.C0DD1BE0 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Colleagues:  We had an interesting = discussion=20 about running an email discussion list last Friday.  We looked at = the=20 delicate balance between "staying on task" and "social chat" on a=20 list such as Teaching Comp. We talked about lists with an active = list=20 owner and ones without. 
 
We have well over 200 people on this = list and, if=20 left to the self-organizing principles of most email lists in our field, = would=20 ebb and flow around threads that emerged.  This would happen=20 naturally.  The pleasure of this is the great interchanges that = develop;=20 the pain is having, sometimes, 70 new email messages in your inbox one = morning=20 when you log in, 50 of them from the same list.
 
We are experimenting in doing a = technically=20 unmoderated but in practice moderated list.  In other words, anyone = can=20 post anything, but at the same time we have me, the ongoing moderator, = and we=20 have the guest moderator -- Bill Condon just ending, Paul Heilker just = starting,=20 both of whom keep the conversation focused on the topic at = hand.
 
Would it be better to allow a bit of = free=20 discussion?  Do you all even know that you are free to post without = our=20 permission?
 
Or is it best to keep the discussion = focused on the=20 topic of the moment?
 
We think the latter is better, but I = hope that all=20 of you know you can post to the list yourself.
 
Trent

_________________
Trent Batson,=20 Ph.D.,
Consultant
WebCT
Two Corporation Way
Peabody, MA=20 01960
 
978-538-0036
401-225-5009 = (cell)
978-538-0309=20 (fax)
www.webct.com
trent.batson@webct.com
------=_NextPart_000_0109_01BFCF07.C0DD1BE0-- From teaching_composition-admin Mon Jun 5 16:21:57 2000 Received: from cheetah.it.wsu.edu (root@cheetah.it.wsu.edu [134.121.1.8]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA16050 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 16:21:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [134.121.50.183] (condon.engl.wsu.edu [134.121.50.183]) by cheetah.it.wsu.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA00390 for ; Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:21:55 -0700 (PDT) X-Sender: bcondon@mail.wsu.edu Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 5 Jun 2000 14:19:04 -0700 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com From: bcondon@wsu.edu (Bill Condon) Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Farewell? Folks, I'm not sure what has been happening, but I've been on the list, off the list, and back on within the past three weeks--and, as Trent pointed out, attending the Computers and Writing Conference. I did not receive any messages from the list while my e-mail management stuff was on the website. If folks were too busy or just plain not interested, that's cool. But I don't want anyone to think I was being unresponsive. If you sent a message to the list and I didn't get it, could you re-post it to me? I'd be happy to respond. Just to be safe, be sure to send it directly to me. That way, we won't interfere with the next round of discussion (which looks exciting!). Thanks, Bill Bill Condon, Director English Department, Avery 202 WSU Writing Programs Washington State University Phone: (509) 335-2268 Pullman, WA 99164-5046 FAX: (509) 335-2582 e-mail: bcondon@wsu.edu http://www.wsu.edu/~bcondon/ From teaching_composition-admin Tue Jun 6 11:40:18 2000 Received: from imo-r20.mx.aol.com (imo-r20.mx.aol.com [152.163.225.162]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10143 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 11:40:17 -0500 (CDT) From: IMartin532@aol.com Received: from IMartin532@aol.com by imo-r20.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.9.) id z.be.4d1c728 (3995) for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:39:43 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:39:43 EDT Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #109 - 1 msg To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 104 I've just subscribed to your organizaton, and after reading this last e-mail, I'm completely confused. How do I leave a message or access your discussions? I've been teaching reading skills at NYC Techical College for 30 years and Developmental Writing for 5. I'm going to be teaching Freshman Comp next semester and could use the benefit of your expertise. How do I do it? Irene Martin IMartin532@aol.com From teaching_composition-admin Tue Jun 6 12:15:43 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA11216 for ; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 12:15:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (webct174.webct.com [140.239.69.174]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id KDKATYAG; Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:32:10 -0400 Message-ID: <00b201bfcfda$d8423120$ae45ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: References: Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Getting Unconfused Date: Tue, 6 Jun 2000 13:15:42 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Irene: you managed to access our discussion successfully. Bill Condon was our last leader and was commenting about the past couple of weeks. Paul Heilker of Virginia Tech is starting this week, and the focus will be on how to lead a good classroom discussion. You can see his paper at http://www.mhhe.com/socscience/english/tc/ Welcome to our list. The idea is to read this paper and then post comments or questions. Trent ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Tuesday, June 06, 2000 12:39 PM Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #109 - 1 msg > I've just subscribed to your organizaton, and after reading this last e-mail, > I'm completely confused. How do I leave a message or access your > discussions? I've been teaching reading skills at NYC Techical College for > 30 years and Developmental Writing for 5. I'm going to be teaching Freshman > Comp next semester and could use the benefit of your expertise. How do I do > it? > Irene Martin > IMartin532@aol.com > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. From teaching_composition-admin Wed Jun 7 09:53:32 2000 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22000 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:53:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.vt.edu (gkar.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.40]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA23958 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.53.44] by gkar.cc.vt.edu (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) with ESMTP id <0FVS0047UHD1YN@gkar.cc.vt.edu> for teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:53:30 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:57:09 -0400 From: Paul Heilker Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Hello! X-Sender: pheilker@mail.vt.edu (Unverified) To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello, All, Here's a sketch of the discussion leaders for the month of June: Jennifer Barton recently earned her M.A. in English from Virginia Tech after serving as a GTA for two years. She is considering doctoral study in rhetoric and composition and is especially interested in personal/expressive writing as a pedagogical alternative to academic discourse. David Rutkowski has just finished the first year of his M.A./GTA program at Virginia Tech. He, too, is considering advanced study in rhetoric and composition. David's thesis-project will develop a service-learning connection for student writers between local nonprofit organizations and the campus newspaper. Paul Heilker is the Director of the First-Year Writing Program at Virginia Tech, where he teaches courses in writing, rhetoric, and composition pedagogy. His work has appeared in such places as _Rhetoric Review_, _Computers and Composition_, and _Composition Studies_. He is the author of _The Essay: Theory and Pedagogy for an Active Form_ (NCTE, 1996) and co-editor (with Peter Vandenberg) of _Keywords in Composition Studies_ (Heinemann, 1996). He is currently working on a book on the philosophy of style/style as philosophy for SUNY Press. We're honored to be here and look forward to talking with you. PH p.s. Both Jen and David are out of the country for seveal weeks, proving once again that graduate students have far more interesting lives than their professors. From teaching_composition-admin Wed Jun 7 09:53:53 2000 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA22062 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 09:53:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.vt.edu (gkar.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.40]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA27296 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:53:53 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.53.44] by gkar.cc.vt.edu (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) with ESMTP id <0FVS00400HDLT2@gkar.cc.vt.edu> for teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 10:53:52 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 10:57:27 -0400 From: Paul Heilker Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Discussion Questions: Set #1 X-Sender: pheilker@mail.vt.edu To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hello, again, Since we will be on board for several weeks, we thought we would prime the pump occasionally with some pointed (if not provocative) questions in an attempt to keep things interesting. So here's the first issue we find vexing as writing instructors trying to use classroom discussion: To what extent should writing instructors insist that quiet students participate in class discussion? Is it ethical to insist that students who are introverts must behave as extroverts? Is it ethical to allow students who are introverted to remain quiet and passive and voice-less in class? Is requiring reluctant students to speak aloud in class a kind of pedagogical torture, a way of trying alter students' personalities? Is requiring reluctant students to speak aloud in class a kind of "tough love," a way of forcing them through their uneasiness to discursive empowerment? Given that students have differing learning styles, that some students learn best by observing rather than participating, by listening rather than speaking, for instance, is it ethical to insist that students change their preferred ways of being in class (of being in the world)? Given that students have differing learning styles, that some students learn best by observing rather than participating, by listening rather than speaking, for instance, is it ethical to allow them the option of not growing, not developing new ways of being in class (of being in the world)? We look forward to your thoughts on these knotty issues. PH From teaching_composition-admin Wed Jun 7 12:26:24 2000 Received: from mail.kwom.com (root@mail.kwom.com [206.185.16.5]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA25587 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:26:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kwom.com (pm3-2-36.kwom.com [206.185.17.100]) by mail.kwom.com (8.9.2/8.8.8) with ESMTP id MAA28644 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 12:24:40 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <393E8631.CEA9D69E@kwom.com> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 12:28:18 -0500 From: Kafkaz Reply-To: Kafkaz@kwom.com Organization: College of DuPage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Discussion Questions: Set #1 References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul Heilker wrote: > Is it ethical to allow students who are introverted to remain quiet and > passive and voice-less in class? > Oooh. All very interesting questions, none of which I ought to be responding to now with children, gardens, laundry, and assorted other responsibilities and errands to see to. Still, I wanted to take a moment to have a go at the version of the theme above, for it touched off this immediate response: never mistake quietness for voicelessness. Does that gut response make sense to others? I can't help thinking of the many quiet students I've known whose powerful voices will remain with me for a long, long time. None of them were particularly adept at the niceties of social interaction, but when they spoke, they said quietly profound things, and even when they didn't speak much, their capacity for listening deeply, attentively, and critically shone through in the most arresting essays/journals/class posts. Not that the silent are necessarily *more* powerful writers, but I don't think it's good to confuse "saying little" or "saying it softly" with "not saying much." I think, too, of a favorite teacher whose quiet--almost shy, really--ways had us all leaning forward in our seats, and ultimately speaking and writing our own quiet observations to each other, something few of us did as freely, thoughtfully, or thoroughly in the more rough and tumble (and, truly, very fun and enlightening, but in a different way) classes in which socializing was sometimes *too much* the thing. Ach. I don't mean to set up an either/or, but to explode the one lurking in all these variations of the same question. Silence is valuable. Speaking and socializing are valuable. "Voicelessness" can happen even in the loudest, busiest, most vocal classes, and its opposite in even the most seemingly quiet ones. I suppose it's all in how we listen. Also, creating room for silence is one of the hardest, most crucial elements of teaching. We shouldn't rush to fill every seeming void. Contemplation mightn't seem much to *look* at (or to listen to) on the surface of things, but oh, it is something to value. -- Kathy A.Fitch Assistant Professor of English College of DuPage http://www.cod.edu http://personal.kwom.com/Kafkaz/kfitch/ http://personal.kwom.com/Kafkaz/ptweb/ From teaching_composition-admin Wed Jun 7 13:51:26 2000 Received: from merlin.ilstu.edu (merlin.ilstu.edu [138.87.4.8]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27138 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:51:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gawain.ilstu.edu (gawain.ilstu.edu [138.87.4.50]) by merlin.ilstu.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id NAA25320; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:51:07 -0500 (CDT) Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 13:50:04 -0500 (CDT) From: Susan Antlitz To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com cc: seantli@ilstu.edu Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Discussion Questions: Set #1 In-Reply-To: <393E8631.CEA9D69E@kwom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Wed, 7 Jun 2000, Kafkaz wrote: > Does that gut response make sense to others? I can't help thinking > of the many quiet students I've known whose powerful voices will > remain with me for a long, long time. None of them were > particularly adept at the niceties of social interaction, but when > they spoke, they said quietly profound things, and even when they > didn't speak much, their capacity for listening deeply, attentively, > and critically shone through in the most arresting > essays/journals/class posts. Not that the silent are necessarily > *more* powerful writers, but I don't think it's good to confuse > "saying little" or "saying it softly" with "not saying much." > Kathy, this strikes a chord with me. When I was an undergraduate student, I *was* one of the quiet ones; I'd rarely open my mouth in class. Often, it was difficult to "switch gears" and make the move from listening and thinking to speaking. Until, that is, I was introduced to participating on a class listserv. I'd usually be quiet in class, only to run back to my dorm and write a torrent of email about all the thoughts that had been sparked by the class session-- or I'd write email to the class before class about the reading for that day. As the class wrote to each other outside of class, I got to know them better and felt more comfortable. Ever since that semester, teachers have often faced the difficulty of getting me to be quiet in class! I think one the biggest keys to the question "Is it ethical to allow students who are introverted to remain quiet and passive and voice-less in class?" is to understand that the "voicelessness" can be unethical without the solution necessarily being that shy or quiet students are forced to speak. Rather, a more friutful option might be to provide other avenues of "voice," such as a class listserv or bulletin board, or for classes that don't access to the technology, something like dialogue journals. This provide the students who are less inclined to speak with an alternate form of communication. In fact, if these students tend to think in writing rather than in speech, they can even provide an excellent example for peers in a writing class. My other reaction is to the idea of "force" or forcing students to speak. I think instead it's important to keep *inviting* these students to speak, but if they don't respond or feel like they have anything they want to say, then politely move on to another student without making the student feel embarassed. (As the semester goes on, you'll recognize who your truly shy or quiet students are, versus the ones who just haven't done the work or read the material.) Inviting these students to talk in class and creating some space for them in the conversation can also help if other students in the class tend to dominate the conversation. Invitations, not force, paired with an alternate forum for discussion (email or dialogue journal), and letting students do some writing before being asked to share with the class can gradually draw the quiet student into the class discussion-- it gives that student a chance to prepare what he or she will say. Susan PhD Candidate, Composition Illinois State University From teaching_composition-admin Wed Jun 7 14:25:53 2000 Received: from thor.stcc.cc.tx.us ([206.254.144.4]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id OAA28562 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:25:52 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <200006071925.OAA28562@greenhouse.eppg.com> X-WM-Posted-At: thor.stcc.cc.tx.us; Wed, 7 Jun 00 14:20:49 -0500 Date: Wed, 7 Jun 2000 14:20:49 -0500 Sender: Edye Burford From: Edye Burford To: "teaching_composition" , Paul Heilker X-EXP32-SerialNo: 00002127 Subject: RE: [Teaching_Composition] Discussion Questions: Set #1 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7BIT X-Mailer: WebMail (Hydra) SMTP v3.12.02 <> You are forgetting a major behavioral element with this statement. In many cultures it is extremely *rude* to behave in an assertive or aggressive or extrovert manner. The Native American, many Asian, and Hispanic cultures, to name a very few, would rather drop out of school and save face than to speak up in a classroom situation. Edye >===== Original Message From Paul Heilker ===== >Hello, again, > >Since we will be on board for several weeks, we thought we would prime the >pump occasionally with some pointed (if not provocative) questions in an >attempt to keep things interesting. > >So here's the first issue we find vexing as writing instructors trying to >use classroom discussion: > >To what extent should writing instructors insist that quiet students >participate in class discussion? > >Is it ethical to insist that students who are introverts must behave as >extroverts? > >Is it ethical to allow students who are introverted to remain quiet and >passive and voice-less in class? > >Is requiring reluctant students to speak aloud in class a kind of >pedagogical torture, a way of trying alter students' personalities? > >Is requiring reluctant students to speak aloud in class a kind of "tough >love," a way of forcing them through their uneasiness to discursive >empowerment? > >Given that students have differing learning styles, that some students >learn best by observing rather than participating, by listening rather than >speaking, for instance, is it ethical to insist that students change their >preferred ways of being in class (of being in the world)? > >Given that students have differing learning styles, that some students >learn best by observing rather than participating, by listening rather than >speaking, for instance, is it ethical to allow them the option of not >growing, not developing new ways of being in class (of being in the world)? > >We look forward to your thoughts on these knotty issues. > >PH > > > > > > >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > >If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. Edith (Edye) Burford Coordinator of Distance Learning/Instructor of English South Texas Community College Information and Technology Services Distance Learning 3301 North Ware Road - Suite 102 McAllen, TX 78501 (956)688-2334 From teaching_composition-admin Wed Jun 7 15:20:06 2000 Received: from acs.eku.edu (ACS.EKU.EDU [157.89.8.64]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA02060 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:20:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from acs.eku.edu ([157.89.34.247]) by ACS.EKU.EDU (PMDF V5.2-31 #41916) with ESMTP id <01JQBT4UH8DO00710M@ACS.EKU.EDU> for teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 16:19:21 EDT Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 16:20:00 -0400 From: "engcore@acs.eku.edu" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] shy people To: "teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com" Message-id: <393EAE70.A7D9480B@acs.eku.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win98; I) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Accept-Language: en I agree that "forcing" and "inviting" are two different things. I teach a sophomore lit class with 35-40 students, and speaking up in that class does feel like addressing an assembly. To get the less extroverted to talk, and to get as many voices heard as possible, I do a lot of small group work. It's easy to get everyone to contribute when they're in groups of 4 or 5. Then a group leader reports to the class with a summary of the group's ideas. The introvert's ideas have been heard, the extrovert gets to be the group leader, and everyone is happy. On course evaluations, the students often comment that they liked class discussion being handled through the small groups because it was easier for them to talk that way. Deb Core From teaching_composition-admin Wed Jun 7 15:38:00 2000 Received: from marnier.ucs.usl.edu (root@ucs-gw.usl.edu [130.70.40.2]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA03469 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:37:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from bottom.usl.edu (bottom.usl.edu [130.70.49.155]) by marnier.ucs.usl.edu (8.9.1/8.9.1/ucs-mx-host_1.4) with SMTP id PAA26963 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 15:37:56 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <393EB275.65C2@louisiana.edu> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 15:37:09 -0500 From: denise rogers Reply-To: dmr2899@louisiana.edu Organization: University of Louisiana at Lafayette X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #114 - 1 msg References: <200006071454.JAA22138@greenhouse.eppg.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > To what extent should writing instructors insist that quiet students > participate in class discussion? In my composition class, I usually find that breaking the ice by having students work together on a body of questions gets even the more quiet ones talking. I also am a fan of the panel discussion, but I structure it the way one of my teachers did (Brian Wilke, co-author of Literature of the Western World): Everyone is assigned a panel (or signs up for a panel) that will be presented at some time during the semester. All students in the class are given a day or two to consider a yes/no question (for example, "Should a director of the play _Macbeth_ have the ghost on stage?" (as opposed to treating the ghost as a figment of Macbeth's imagination). 4-5 panelists sit up front, prepared to answer the question. Round 1: Everyone answers the question "yes" or "no" (no maybes--this will ruin the fun, and believe me, students end up enjoying these). Round 2: Each student can explain the answer he or she gave in no more than two or three sentences. Round 3: Students can say more about their point of view, challenge someone else's view, respond in support of someone else's view, or respond in any other way (this can go on for some time). About this time, the folks in the "audience" are using raring to get their two cents worth in. Round 4: The discussion is opened up to the rest of the class. Often, those "silent" students become quite vocal, if not the first time we do the panel, then later. And they often make very good panelists. > > Is it ethical to insist that students who are introverts must behave as > extroverts? I see my class as one that prepares students to succeed in other classes and in the work place. Is it ethical to suggest to students that demands to communicate will not be placed on them in other situations? I want to provide a place in which students feel they can talk. I would also like to raise the issue that some students don't talk because of the composition of the class. When I taught at the university in northwest Arkansas, where there were very few African-American students, the students felt intimated by their minority status and would not talk in class. Get them out of class, and it was a different story. Sometimes panel discussions would break the ice. One of the best evaluations I got from a student came from an African-American student who said, "This was the first class at this university I felt comfortable talking in." > > Is it ethical to allow students who are introverted to remain quiet and > passive and voice-less in class? I think it's okay for everyone to have some time in classes where they don't feel pushed to class. Thinking time is a good idea (we teachers tend to get in a panic if we don't get an answer right away). > > Is requiring reluctant students to speak aloud in class a kind of > pedagogical torture, a way of trying alter students' personalities? No more than any other social activity would be. Some people who are painfully shy would consider it torture to talk in class; others might see the class as a forum to overcome the problem. I usually discuss it with the student if it gets to be a problem. > > Given that students have differing learning styles, that some students > learn best by observing rather than participating, by listening rather than > speaking, for instance, is it ethical to insist that students change their > preferred ways of being in class (of being in the world)? Most universities offer more than one section of any given class. One the first day of class, I always let my students know the kind of person I am and what my expectations are (and I try to address as many different styles of learning as I can). I remind them that they have choices. One of those choices is to select a different section of a class if they have a sense that mine may not be comfortable for them. But I am not as concerned with their comfort as I used to be due to the fact I've realized that I can't make the classroom comfortable for everyone. Also, I don't assume that anyone's personality or learning style is static. Perhaps that student is ready for a change in style, or perhaps he or she wants to experiment. And, also, I can't always know what the reason for the silence is. It may be "I want to be quiet in the world," but it may also be, "I didn't get enough sleep last night," or it might be "I hate having to take this class," or something else. Students who have problems with authority are sometimes quiet rather than noisy. I think the best thing we can do for the student coming into the class is be as honest as possible about our expectations, and remind students that they have choices, which result in consequences. Denise Rogers From teaching_composition-admin Wed Jun 7 17:08:27 2000 Received: from mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.52]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05735 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:08:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.76.90.188]) by mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000607220746.PYBS2120.mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net@worldnet.att.net> for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:07:46 +0000 Message-ID: <393ED606.FAB5A65C@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 18:08:55 -0500 From: "Jean L. Schulte" Reply-To: schulte@worldnet.att.net Organization: Duquesne University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] overcoming shyness 101 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I'd like to add a new line to this mix--how about what we should do with the extroverts? Should we alter their personalitites? Is that unethical? Or is it less ethical to let extroverts dominate classroom dialogue? I don't distribute a personality assessment quiz to my students and I don't intend to do so, but I think we all are familiar with those students who never talk in class voluntarily, and we are all too familiar with those that are quick to share opinions, to put it politely. I just had an odd teaching experience: my first time teaching an off-term required core composition course, it's typically in the fall, but in the spring, there's a mix of students who failed the past fall and new folks. The students who failed must've come in with chips on their shoulders, and they made the classroom quite unbearable for a while--they bullied quieter people, (this was gendered, actually--the "bullies" were young men, and the "bullied" were young women), and they often expressed opinions in language that was unfit for social interaction. Then they'd claim to not understand what the problem was when I'd tell them they had one. Only by working with them, the bullies, did they realize that what they did not only shut up the quieter students, and made me upset, but it kept the class from getting to the materials at hand and they pushed us all back further--not a good thing for those who'd failed the course. What helped? The same thing that hurt us--going online for synchronous class chats. We had occasionally gone into WebCT chatrooms for in-class discussions. For a while, it went well. Surprisingly so--in fact, the quieter folks typed merrily away, enabling them to participate in class discussions unlike in the traditional classroom. Then the bullying started. So I stopped the chats, and made it known that I wouldn't even consider having any more chats until I saw clear improvements. They all worked on this problem, and by the last month of class, we were chatting again. They all indicated to me on the teaching evals. that this experience helped them--and that they'd learned how to interact with a variety of people, and felt that they'd learned more than just the subject materials. In the end, this experience was rewarding for me, despite the speedbumps midway through. So, I'd like to expand the dialogue--is it fair or unfair to alter the personalities of the extroverts? In my case, I'd side with yes--it would've been unethical not to have done so. And in the end, the quieter students did start to speak up, perhaps because they felt more respected. What do you think? Jean -- Jean Schulte, PhD Candidate, English schulte@att.net schulte@duq.edu Adjunct Faculty--Duquesne University From teaching_composition-admin Wed Jun 7 17:15:41 2000 Received: from mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.52]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05873 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 17:15:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.76.90.188]) by mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000607221511.QAKC2120.mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net@worldnet.att.net> for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 22:15:11 +0000 Message-ID: <393ED7C3.A2F3817F@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 18:16:21 -0500 From: "Jean L. Schulte" Reply-To: schulte@worldnet.att.net Organization: Duquesne University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] class participation Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Ok . . . next question--what do you all think about grading class participation? What counts as participation? How much point value do you assign to it? How do you document it? My department requires us to devote 25% of our final grade to participation--that seems like a lot to me, but I find ways to incorporate other activities into "participation." For you, then, is participation more than verbal communication? Can you assess for listening thoughtfully and give points for that? I'd really like to hear others' insights on these issues, thanks!! Jean -- Jean Schulte, PhD Candidate, English schulte@att.net schulte@duq.edu Adjunct Faculty--Duquesne University From teaching_composition-admin Wed Jun 7 20:18:28 2000 Received: from mailhub.iastate.edu (mailhub.iastate.edu [129.186.1.102]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA09176 for ; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:18:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from portal (aswan.truserve.com [208.142.211.160]) by mailhub.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id UAA04277; Wed, 7 Jun 2000 20:18:14 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000607200829.00964370@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu> X-Sender: ewardle@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 07 Jun 2000 20:16:33 -0500 To: schulte@worldnet.att.net, "teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com" From: Elizabeth A Wardle Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] overcoming shyness 101 In-Reply-To: <393ED606.FAB5A65C@worldnet.att.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Good question, Jean. I'd like to agree with you that it is sometimes unethical not to find ways to quiet (not silence) those who are too outgoing/overbearing. I've had trouble with this in the past, since I give a participation grade in my course and some people take that to mean that have unlimited license to talk freely whenever they want. I still have not determined how best to keep a balance of people talking. The best way (as someone else said) is to split often into small groups. Other things I've found useful include: dividing the class in half and appointing the overbearing people as discussion "leaders" (which I explain means facilitating discussion, not doing all the talking) Going around the room and asking each person's opinion Having people write responses and then pass them around the room, with each person writing a response to those who have written beforehand (thus a silent and written discussion). After about 20 minutes I have people share what they've been discussing. Sometimes having something to pass from speaker to speaker--like a ball--works and can be funny. This way, the person speaking decides who gets to speak next. The students often do a good job of keeping the ball away from those who are dominneering. There are many ways to facilitate fair discussion and I think it is worth the work to make sure everyone has a space in which to talk. At times this requires me to be a little more hard nosed than I normally would be. But I consider it keeping the space safe for everyone. Quieter students usually comment later and say they appreciate it when I leave room for them by keeping certain people from dominating. Elizabeth At 06:08 PM 6/7/00 -0500, Jean L. Schulte wrote: >I'd like to add a new line to this mix--how about what we should do with >the extroverts? Should we alter their personalitites? Is that >unethical? Or is it less ethical to let extroverts dominate classroom >dialogue? > >I don't distribute a personality assessment quiz to my students and I >don't intend to do so, but I think we all are familiar with those >students who never talk in class voluntarily, and we are all too >familiar with those that are quick to share opinions, to put it >politely. I just had an odd teaching experience: my first time >teaching an off-term required core composition course, it's typically in >the fall, but in the spring, there's a mix of students who failed the >past fall and new folks. The students who failed must've come in with >chips on their shoulders, and they made the classroom quite unbearable >for a while--they bullied quieter people, (this was gendered, >actually--the "bullies" were young men, and the "bullied" were young >women), and they often expressed opinions in language that was unfit for >social interaction. Then they'd claim to not understand what the >problem was when I'd tell them they had one. Only by working with them, >the bullies, did they realize that what they did not only shut up the >quieter students, and made me upset, but it kept the class from getting >to the materials at hand and they pushed us all back further--not a good >thing for those who'd failed the course. What helped? The same thing >that hurt us--going online for synchronous class chats. > >We had occasionally gone into WebCT chatrooms for in-class discussions. >For a while, it went well. Surprisingly so--in fact, the quieter folks >typed merrily away, enabling them to participate in class discussions >unlike in the traditional classroom. Then the bullying started. So I >stopped the chats, and made it known that I wouldn't even consider >having any more chats until I saw clear improvements. They all worked >on this problem, and by the last month of class, we were chatting >again. They all indicated to me on the teaching evals. that this >experience helped them--and that they'd learned how to interact with a >variety of people, and felt that they'd learned more than just the >subject materials. In the end, this experience was rewarding for me, >despite the speedbumps midway through. > >So, I'd like to expand the dialogue--is it fair or unfair to alter the >personalities of the extroverts? In my case, I'd side with yes--it >would've been unethical not to have done so. And in the end, the >quieter students did start to speak up, perhaps because they felt more >respected. > > >What do you think? > >Jean > > >-- >Jean Schulte, PhD Candidate, English >schulte@att.net >schulte@duq.edu >Adjunct Faculty--Duquesne University > > > >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > >If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat >your information. Elizabeth A. Wardle Rhetoric & Professional Communication Program Department of English Iowa State University of Science and Technology ewardle@iastate.edu www.public.iastate.edu/~ewardle/ From teaching_composition-admin Thu Jun 8 08:39:12 2000 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA25828 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 08:39:12 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.vt.edu (gkar.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.40]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA05220 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:39:11 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.49.166] by gkar.cc.vt.edu (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) with ESMTP id <0FVU006W78L61V@gkar.cc.vt.edu> for teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 09:39:10 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 09:42:42 -0400 From: Paul Heilker Subject: [Teaching_Composition] synthetic response #1 X-Sender: pheilker@mail.vt.edu (Unverified) To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Good Morning! Goodness, what a rich discussion. Thanks to all who have participated. Rather than clutter your mailboxes with responses to each of you individually, I'll offer a synthetic rejoinder instead. First, a confession of sorts: as Kathy pointed out, most of our first questions were purposefully (indeed, *archly*) composed as either/or constructions. We did so in an effort to spur folks to speak. Such polarized questions often prompt people to point out the shrillness and weaknesses of the positions expressed and to look for more effectively and carefully nuanced ones, as many of you did (thank you!). Second, a clarification: while we are pleased that the discussion here has brought up a number of attendant issues--like whether students should be required to participate in peer reviews (emurray)--and encouraged us to discuss pedagogical alternatives to whole-class discussion--like e-mail lists (Susan), small groups (Deb), and panels (Denise)--we would like to keep our discussion here focused on our ostensible subject, which is facilitating effective *whole-class* discussion. So here's a thread we can weave with as we move on: How do we move from peer reviews, small groups, panels, e-mail lists and the like to whole-class discussion? How can we take what students learn/do in these alternative fora and apply it to make whole-class discussion sessions more productive? Third, an invitation: while we have not "forgotten" the cultural issues that impinge upon students performance in class discussion sessions (we were saving them for later, Edye), we might as well begin addressing them now. Indeed, we can move beyond race and ethnicity to consider other cultural factors that keep students from participating in class discussion sessions: Given that success in many academic settings still requires students to perform well in rhetorical situations defined by young, aggressive/competitive, anglo, male, upper-middle class, heterosexual values, how can we help students who, because of their age, race, ethnicity, gender, class, and/or sexual orientation, would rather, as Edye puts it, "drop out of school and save face than to speak up in a classroom situation"? We think here of Denise's comment: "I see my class as one that prepares students to succeed in other classes and in the work place. Is it ethical to suggest to students that demands to communicate will not be placed on them in other situations?" PH From teaching_composition-admin Thu Jun 8 14:49:45 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (law-f269.hotmail.com [209.185.130.185]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id OAA02497 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 14:49:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 19151 invoked by uid 0); 8 Jun 2000 19:49:09 -0000 Message-ID: <20000608194908.19150.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 32.100.64.12 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 08 Jun 2000 12:49:08 PDT X-Originating-IP: [32.100.64.12] From: "Mary Boland" To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: thoughts on Paul's synthesis response... Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 15:49:08 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Hi all, Some thoughts in response to Paul's post: Paul writes: >First, a confession of sorts: as Kathy pointed out, most of our first >questions were purposefully (indeed, *archly*) composed as either/or >constructions. We did so in an effort to spur folks to speak. Such >polarized questions often prompt people to point out the shrillness and >weaknesses of the positions expressed and to look for more effectively >and >carefully nuanced ones, as many of you did (thank you!). I can definitely see the possibilities of this approach for the right group of people. In the present case, we have a group of professional or preprofessional people already interested in thinking critically about these issues. But I'm hesitant to use this technique with my first year writing students as a means to get conversation going. I've found that my most "college-prepared" students have been drilled in the fine art of argument via the five paragraph theme and debate-style classroom presentations. These students believe that it is their job to stake a position and fight for it to the death. To admit the possibilities arising from someone else's perpectives is to admit the inadequacies of one's own positions. Because aggressive argumentation is the style of presentation that these students have been taught is valued in college and because they consider themselves good college students, they really come on with verbal guns blazing. It's not suprising to me that the majority of these students are white males from upper middle class backgrounds. All of which is to say that a large number of the students in my classes arrive ready to polarize any topic because they think that that's what college requires. If I present them with binaries, they will pick a side with the intention of arguing down the other side. This is known as "winning." Usually these students are politically and socially aligned with conservative mainstream sensibilities and take positions consistent with those values, which raises additional concerns for me about who is getting heard, who is voiceless, and so on. So my own approach is to avoid binaries in the classroom. If anything, I've become queen of the gray areas -- pushing for continual group analyses of how our langage uses construct certain perspectives and what that language may fail to admit or consider. This has helped make room for other perspectives and other voices in the classroom and has reduced the level of aggressiveness. By the way, the construction of silent students as those who choose not to speak has been troubling me. More often than not, I think the silent student is more usefully understood as the "silenced" student or the "unheard" student. And I'm not so sure I want to understand that as the unheard student's problem. At least not in the deficit sense... Mary Boland slightduck@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From teaching_composition-admin Thu Jun 8 17:06:01 2000 Received: from mailhub.iastate.edu (mailhub.iastate.edu [129.186.1.102]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA05361 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:06:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from portal (hygeia.truserve.com [208.142.209.86]) by mailhub.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id RAA11609; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 17:05:56 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000608170030.00977a20@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu> X-Sender: ewardle@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 17:06:00 -0500 To: Paul Heilker , teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com From: Elizabeth A Wardle Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] synthetic response #1 In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 09:42 AM 6/8/00 -0400, Paul Heilker wrote: >Second, a clarification: while we are pleased that the discussion here has >brought up a number of attendant issues--like whether students should be >required to participate in peer reviews (emurray)--and encouraged us to >discuss pedagogical alternatives to whole-class discussion--like e-mail >lists (Susan), small groups (Deb), and panels (Denise)--we would like to >keep our discussion here focused on our ostensible subject, which is >facilitating effective *whole-class* discussion. Geez, I sort of feel like I'm in school now, and I'm the one who's just been silenced--with the oft-heard, "students, you are getting off task. What I wanted you to talk about was...." Thought that was an interesting comment Paul made, especially in light of our very recent (and I suppose off task) comments about silencing students in discussion. I meant to end my comments here, but I might just add one more, in order to be difficult (just like our own students can be). We've had lots of total silence on this listserv. This conversation was just getting interesting (to me at least) when Paul told us we were off the topic. I haven't done a scientific study, but it seems like comments have dwindled off again after that. What do we do when this happens in our classrooms--when our students are really taking off but not in the direction we want, so we admonish them to get back on the topic--and then they won't talk at all. Any thoughts? Elizabeth Elizabeth A. Wardle Rhetoric & Professional Communication Program Department of English Iowa State University of Science and Technology ewardle@iastate.edu www.public.iastate.edu/~ewardle/ From teaching_composition-admin Thu Jun 8 19:00:35 2000 Received: from mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.52]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA07209 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 19:00:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.68.150.238]) by mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000609000000.GAXC2120.mtiwmhc27.worldnet.att.net@worldnet.att.net> for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 00:00:00 +0000 Message-ID: <394041D6.891F6E4E@worldnet.att.net> Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:01:10 -0500 From: "Jean L. Schulte" Reply-To: schulte@worldnet.att.net Organization: Duquesne University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] new twist Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Mary's comments are quite interesting to me! Thanks! I noted earlier the gendered "bullying" that took place in a recent comp 101 class I taught. I believe you may be right, in that students are schooled in argument, and not in the classical sense, but in the Springerian sense. I stress to my students that "argument" is not so much taking a position and defending it to the death. There's nothing wrong with focusing on the counterargument--in fact, I require them to do so in their essays. That makes for informed research and for a more critically aware position on the issue at hand. We look at some good samples of such writing--King comes to mind, certainly there are others. But, it doesn't help when (now that I'm thinking about it) I once had to use a reader called _Crossfire_ for that course! Does this thread on gender and disucssion styles/argument relate in some key ways to "whole class discussion" and ways to encourage all students, no matter what their backgrounds (ok, so we can include class, race, etc. here)? Jean -- Jean Schulte, PhD Candidate, English schulte@att.net schulte@duq.edu Adjunct Faculty--Duquesne University From teaching_composition-admin Thu Jun 8 21:00:38 2000 Received: from merlin.ilstu.edu (merlin.ilstu.edu [138.87.4.8]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA09469 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 21:00:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gawain.ilstu.edu (gawain.ilstu.edu [138.87.4.50]) by merlin.ilstu.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id VAA12028; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 21:00:42 -0500 (CDT) Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 20:59:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Susan Antlitz To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com cc: seantli@ilstu.edu Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] synthetic response #1 In-Reply-To: <4.2.0.58.20000608170030.00977a20@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > At 09:42 AM 6/8/00 -0400, Paul Heilker wrote: > > >Second, a clarification: while we are pleased that the discussion here has > >brought up a number of attendant issues--like whether students should be > >required to participate in peer reviews (emurray)--and encouraged us to > >discuss pedagogical alternatives to whole-class discussion--like e-mail > >lists (Susan), small groups (Deb), and panels (Denise)--we would like to > >keep our discussion here focused on our ostensible subject, which is > >facilitating effective *whole-class* discussion. > Hmmm. My point was basically that whole class discussion can't be isolated from everything else that goes on as part of the class. Using a variety of different types of interactive forms gets the interactivity going, and when a whole class discussion takes place, it may work more smoothly because students have had previous opportunitis to get used to each other or find out what views others students have. A lot of fostering good discussion is setting the right conditions; creating a class with high levels of interaction in a variety of forms is one way of sending students a big message that their contributions are a core part of the class. So, one good technique I've seen others use is to make references to out of class or small group discussions when the class does have a collective discussion. Pay attention to any shared writing or smaller discussions that take place, and watch and listen for points that could be a springboard for wider discussion. Bringing up a point a student or group of students previously made and using it as a point of departure for continuing the discussion does two things: it puts the focus of the discussion on what students have said, and invites everyone to continue that discussion. In otherwords, bring as much shared class context into the discussion as possible; make references to previous discussions or previous readings or assignemnts when possible, so that students are continuing to build on those dialogues even as they create new ones. Now that I've shown that I'm defintiely not quiet, I think I'll kick back and listen. Susan From teaching_composition-admin Thu Jun 8 21:55:25 2000 Received: from imo-d03.mx.aol.com (imo-d03.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.35]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id VAA10688 for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 21:55:22 -0500 (CDT) From: IMartin532@aol.com Received: from IMartin532@aol.com by imo-d03.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.10.) id z.24.6150da5 (3866) for ; Thu, 8 Jun 2000 22:54:44 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <24.6150da5.2671b674@aol.com> Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 22:54:44 EDT Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: The quiet or introverted student To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 104 It's been my experience (over 30 years of teching) that providing a warm and friendly environment helps quiet students to participate. If students are told at the very beginning of the semester that there are no stupid questions and that the teacher needs student responses to know whether or not he/she is getting his/her point across, students are more likely to participate in discussions. In addition, if you point out that if a student has a question, the chances are that at least half of the class has the same question but is too frightened to ask it, the student will begin to ask questions. Of course, it is extremely important to respond to questions in a positive manner. If students feel that their questions are important and will be answered, they will participate. If their comments during a discussion are received as valuable contributions (even if they statements are incorrect, the professor can respond in an inclusive way), they will begin to participate in class. I think this is far preferable to calling on students who are too shy or frightened to participate. From teaching_composition-admin Fri Jun 9 00:51:44 2000 Received: from mail.kwom.com (root@mail.kwom.com [206.185.16.5]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id AAA14086 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 00:51:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kwom.com (pm3-1-37.kwom.com [206.185.17.37]) by mail.kwom.com (8.9.2/8.8.8) with ESMTP id AAA23527 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 00:49:54 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <39408651.10F1A112@kwom.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 00:53:25 -0500 From: Kafkaz Reply-To: Kafkaz@kwom.com Organization: College of DuPage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 CC: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] synthetic response #1 References: <4.2.0.58.20000608170030.00977a20@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elizabeth A Wardle wrote: > Geez, I sort of feel like I'm in school now, and I'm the one who's just > been silenced--with the oft-heard, "students, you are getting off task. > What I wanted you to talk about was...." Gosh, I spend *one* day digging in the garden--even manage to rake the better part of my right forearm with rose thorns (owie--thanks for asking)--and I come back to find all of this! Interesting. Had to grin at your response, Elizabeth, 'cause that's pretty much what I thought, too. Why bother chatting our way to some foregone conclusion simply to please the teacher, who has (and students always do figure this out, eventually) been keeping that foregone conclusion tucked neatly in her pocket the whole time? What could be more maddening than a "discussion" that isn't? My student self (pretty well indistinguishable from my teacher self on a good day) would pretty much always choose either to opt out of that nominal "discussion" entirely, or simply to ignore teacher's (pre)destination in favor of happily continuing on our thrilling journey toward all sorts of pit stops, detours, and unpredestined answers we might never discover if the conversation ends--or *must* end in a certain way. If teacher has *the* answer, she can bloody well either share it at the outset (in which case we can all set about interrogating that telltale "the," which should prove loads of fun), or use *it* not *us* to keep her warm at night. So there. Goodness. Anyway, yeah. Announcing that the discussers are doing it all wrong must certainly be one of the fastest ways to close down a discussion. (Thanking someone for obediently rising to the bait might well do it, too, but I'm spun of more resilient stuff than that. ) I wonder whence the urge to evaluate "participation" anyway. What gains points? What doesn't? Does pitching in but leading the thing (creatively, interestingly, provocatively) astray mean teacher will duly deduct participation points? Does listening earn points? How is listening evaluated, exactly? Body language must come into play, too, since we know how much of communication transpires nonverbally, so should teacher be drawing up a rubric for that, as well? Plus ten points for leaning forward; plus twelve for leaning forward with a grin; maybe a bonus for all of the above *and* a twinkle in the eye? Minus thirty for crossing arms over the chest; minus forty for doing that "I'm almost asleep but I'm trying hard to fight it" head-bob thing I used to do in church as a kid; and "forget about it; you're so deep into the negative numbers that you're beyond redemption" for refusal to remove ear phones, or actually being so rude as to answer the buzzing cellular or return the apparently pressing page? Must every single thing that transpires in a classroom setting be translated into points and grades? And why is whole class discussion so important, anyway? Perhaps teacher needs some evidence that her lectures are as brilliantly inspiring as she hopes they are, hmm? If whole group discussions really are so crucial to success in the course, then being fully present to them, in whatever form that might take, ought to result in better performance on essays, tests, or whatever other more tangible things students are learning. If participating successfully in group discussion *is* the tangible thing in question, then whatever the rubric will be probably ought to be worked out in class, and with the assistance of a Communications or Speech prof. (We often do invite a Speech teacher in before class presentation time, or at the very least consult with one prior to making such an assignment.) Ah, I feel better now, 'cept for that nasty scratch. Anyway, I wanted to continue down the absorbing trails some others have begun blazing by asking about this idea of "altering students' personalities" that I've seen referred to several times. While I do think education inevitably influences our personalities, in both positive and negative ways, I can't imagine setting about teaching with the express purpose of altering personalities. In the case of the rude students, it seems to me that what the teacher did was help them consider the causes and effects of their behavior, realize that creating a nonthreatening environment would be best for all, and investigate ways to reroute their energies in more positive directions. That's wonderful, and often difficult. I could also see helping more "shy" or reserved students realize how best to take advantage of the strengths of their personalities. Someone mentioned that we must prepare students to speak publicly, for that is what life will call upon them to do, but I dunno about that. Many of the colleagues I most admire, for instance, actually speak very seldom, but they always choose both their moments and their words with great care. That's a wonderful quality worth nurturing. Something really presumptious about the idea of trying to transform a mostly reticent person like that into a chatterbox. Similarly, the chatterboxes and social butterflies have specific skills we can all value even if we don't share them. The world desperately needs people willing to be the catalysts for discussion, so that's a quality worth nurturing, as well. But, expect that everyone will have every quality in equal measure? Seems like a hell of a lot to ask, to me. Too much, really. Plus, it may be that we display our various qualities differently depending on the setting. Most folks who know me well actually think of me as pretty reserved--even wondered aloud how in heck I'd ever manage to speak in front of a group when I announced my intention to be a professor--but I actually enjoy public speaking, facilitating, teaching, presenting, and all those other "cope with a crowd" activities that this profession entails, though I'd still rather stay home to write or read than go to a cocktail party. (How in the world does one *both* sip from a dripping glass and balance one of those ridiculous little plates? Why are there no *real* snacks like, say, Doritos? Am I really expected to feign interest in the CEO's wife's garden when I'd far rather be digging in my own, thorns notwithstanding? And what in heavens does the invitation's advice to come in "dressy casual" wear really *mean* anyhow? Would that be expensive jeans or a rattty tafetta gown? Some mysteries, I suspect, are best plumbed by others.) And I doubt you'll find me running for public office any time soon--hear tell that involves perfect loads of command appearances at cocktail parties and the like. In any case, I do think we should offer students many opportunities and much support in recognizing and developing new skills as well as current strengths, but the "if you don't eat your meat, you can't have any pudding; how can you have any pudding if you don't eat your meat?" approach seems, as a friend of mine from another list is wont to put it, "sadistic." Not every student will behave in exactly the same way, or develop the perfectly academic personality (whatever that might be) *and that's okay.* Kathy at C.O.D. -- Kathy A.Fitch Assistant Professor of English College of DuPage http://www.cod.edu http://personal.kwom.com/Kafkaz/kfitch/ http://personal.kwom.com/Kafkaz/ptweb/ From teaching_composition-admin Fri Jun 9 08:47:22 2000 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id IAA26347 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 08:47:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.vt.edu (gkar.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.40]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA01663 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:47:21 -0400 (EDT) Received: from [128.173.48.160] by gkar.cc.vt.edu (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) with ESMTP id <0FVW00EWB3MUSL@gkar.cc.vt.edu> for teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:47:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 09:50:56 -0400 From: Paul Heilker Subject: [Teaching_Composition] starting over X-Sender: pheilker@mail.vt.edu (Unverified) To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I want to apologize to Elizabeth, Kathy, and anyone else I upset with my last posting. I blew it, and I am sorry. I don't have any predetermined agenda for the discussion; I am not trying to be the teacher here; and I certainly did not want to silence anyone. My asking folks to focus on whole-class discussion was my unfortunate and ham-handed way of trying to be helpful. I'll be more careful in the future. The irony of flubbing so badly as I tried to facilitate a discussion about how to facilitate discussion is painful, which will serve as a useful reminder. And given how often I've urged teachers and students to embrace the exploratory essay as a means to expand the ways we can think, the further irony of having blocked the essayistic flow of our discussion, the "thrilling journey toward all sorts of pit stops, detours, and unpredestined answers," as Kathy put it, borders on the excruciating. Suffice it to say that I've learned an awful lot in two days. I hope we can start over then, and look ahead, rather than behind. Where would you like to go? PH From teaching_composition-admin Fri Jun 9 09:47:01 2000 Received: from wolftree.ULT (wolftree.webct.com [140.239.69.11]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA27962 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 09:47:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from TrentBatson (webct174.webct.com [140.239.69.174]) by wolftree.ULT with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Internet Mail Service Version 5.5.2448.0) id MP3FHQ95; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:03:32 -0400 Message-ID: <009101bfd221$90c2c320$ae45ef8c@ULT> From: "Trent Batson" To: References: Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] starting over Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:46:58 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600 Paul: very clever of you to pretend to be chagrined when in fact you pulled a very sneaky move there, SEEMING to squelch conversation while all the time knowing that's the best way to fan the flames of discourse. I'm very impressed. What a good discussion leader! I'll have to remember this ploy. And such a seemingly sincere apology! (Hey, I'm joking, really, and don't mean to start sounding sarcastic). Trent ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul Heilker" To: Sent: Friday, June 09, 2000 9:50 AM Subject: [Teaching_Composition] starting over > I want to apologize to Elizabeth, Kathy, and anyone else I upset with my > last posting. I blew it, and I am sorry. > > I don't have any predetermined agenda for the discussion; I am not trying > to be the teacher here; and I certainly did not want to silence anyone. > > My asking folks to focus on whole-class discussion was my unfortunate and > ham-handed way of trying to be helpful. I'll be more careful in the future. > > The irony of flubbing so badly as I tried to facilitate a discussion about > how to facilitate discussion is painful, which will serve as a useful > reminder. > > And given how often I've urged teachers and students to embrace the > exploratory essay as a means to expand the ways we can think, the further > irony of having blocked the essayistic flow of our discussion, the > "thrilling journey toward all sorts of pit stops, detours, and > unpredestined answers," as Kathy put it, borders on the excruciating. > Suffice it to say that I've learned an awful lot in two days. > > I hope we can start over then, and look ahead, rather than behind. > > Where would you like to go? > > PH > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. From teaching_composition-admin Fri Jun 9 10:26:11 2000 Received: from merlin.ilstu.edu (merlin.ilstu.edu [138.87.4.8]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA29486 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:26:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gawain.ilstu.edu (gawain.ilstu.edu [138.87.4.50]) by merlin.ilstu.edu (8.9.2/8.9.2) with ESMTP id KAA23395; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:26:17 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 10:25:11 -0500 (CDT) From: Susan Antlitz To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com cc: seantli@ilstu.edu Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] starting over In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Well, "mistakes" are often the best learning oportunities. I choose to see it as your way of dramatizing an important issue relating to discussions-- you planned it that way, right ;) Anyway, it sparked some ideas-- or provided me the opportunity of writing them down. Here goes (I promise I'll be quiet after this, really) : One of my own tendencies is to use everything, somehow tying it to the main discussion. What might be considered a "tangent" can be the very thing that breathes life into a class members understanding of a particular topic or issue. In a writing class we value the process of ideas leading to more and different ideas. If a conversation is messy and changes focus frequently, it's usually exciting. But, in a class discussion, is there a certain amount of focus that needs to be maintained? How does that focus or scope get defined? Is that something contingent on the assignment at hand (ie, a fairly broad, mostly self-directed paper topic will allow for a less uniform discussion, while a more focused assignment will necessitate a more focused discussion?) Or does a discussion even need to be related to paper topics or other classwork at all? If so, how closely; if not, are there any limits? Can you imagine, in your own classrooms, the point at which you'd consider the "tangent" to be too much away from the focus of the discussion? In cases where the teacher (or other students) might think things are getting a little off track, sometimes what is needed is just asking people to articulate the connections they see. Let's say, for example, that our discussion somehow got onto the topic of nuclear physics while many people still wanted to discuss whole class discussions. These two topics seem pretty divergent-- would the better option be to say "Halt disscussion! Back to the topic!" or to find ways to make the second topic apply to the first (in this case, probably metaphorically, but who knows)? I'd opt for the second option. It requires some mental dexterity to keep making connections, but I think that's exactly the type of thinking that can be useful to students in their own writing-- it's often what they've had the least experience with. Susan On Fri, 9 Jun 2000, Paul Heilker wrote: > I want to apologize to Elizabeth, Kathy, and anyone else I upset with my > last posting. I blew it, and I am sorry. > > I don't have any predetermined agenda for the discussion; I am not trying > to be the teacher here; and I certainly did not want to silence anyone. > > My asking folks to focus on whole-class discussion was my unfortunate and > ham-handed way of trying to be helpful. I'll be more careful in the future. > > The irony of flubbing so badly as I tried to facilitate a discussion about > how to facilitate discussion is painful, which will serve as a useful > reminder. > > And given how often I've urged teachers and students to embrace the > exploratory essay as a means to expand the ways we can think, the further > irony of having blocked the essayistic flow of our discussion, the > "thrilling journey toward all sorts of pit stops, detours, and > unpredestined answers," as Kathy put it, borders on the excruciating. > Suffice it to say that I've learned an awful lot in two days. > > I hope we can start over then, and look ahead, rather than behind. > > Where would you like to go? > > PH > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat your information. > From teaching_composition-admin Fri Jun 9 11:22:33 2000 Received: from mail.kwom.com (root@mail.kwom.com [206.185.16.5]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA00865 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:22:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kwom.com (pm3-1-04.kwom.com [206.185.17.4]) by mail.kwom.com (8.9.2/8.8.8) with ESMTP id LAA14532; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:20:36 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <39411A27.A7218535@kwom.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 11:24:09 -0500 From: Kafkaz Reply-To: Kafkaz@kwom.com Organization: College of DuPage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Trent Batson CC: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] starting over References: <009101bfd221$90c2c320$ae45ef8c@ULT> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Trent Batson wrote: > Paul: very clever of you to pretend to be chagrined when in fact you pulled > a very sneaky move there, SEEMING to squelch conversation while all the time > knowing that's the best way to fan the flames of discourse. I'm very > impressed. What a good discussion leader! I'll have to remember this ploy. > And such a seemingly sincere apology! (Hey, I'm joking, really, and don't > mean to start sounding sarcastic). Yeah, I thought of that, too, Trent--"Hey, this guy's playing me like a fiddle!" Sigh. It is hard being so transparent. And no, I won't be risking my little stash of vending machine quarters by taking any of you I might happen to meet at conferences on in games of midnight poker. Anyway, Paul made me think about how best to handle things when a class has gone from "happily astray" to "hopelessly amok." Sometimes, even the topics and strategies that work out beautifully with one group flop miserably with another. What to do, then, when there's something simply uncomfortable about the classroom atmosphere? Or when, as Susan says, the conversation devolves into something almost impossible to tie back into the topic at hand? Or when students sit silently in their uniform rows waiting for the familiar lecture/notes format that won't be forthcoming? Paul reminded me of all the times I've gone into a class to say, "Hey, this doesn't seem to be going so well from my perspective. Here's what I think about why and what we might do about it. What do you think?" If students agree that that things could be better, they'll often have plenty of ideas to share. If they disagree, they'll say that, as well. Both sorts of response can be enlightening. Not as easy to predict which sort will come as one might think, either. Could be, then, that classroom assessment often works better as a teaching/learning tool than points or grades do. Rather than grade students' participation, I'm more inclined to solicit their feedback about how classroom activities, including whole-group discussion, are helping or hindering their progress. Even really simple techniques like one-minute papers or muddiest point musings can help us monitor and tend the environment. Sometimes, I even take the time to compile a list of the most frequently asked questions or the most common concerns, then address them in class, and/or write up my responses to post to our online space. As someone else observed, we have deliberately to create areas in which to think and talk about how we are learning together. There's always the class and then the meta-class, I guess. I think most students are happy, even relieved, to be let in on the design and goals of a course, and invited to help shape them, but it can take awhile for them to feel comfortable and authorized to move around in the meta-sphere. Kathy at C.O.D. -- Kathy A.Fitch Assistant Professor of English College of DuPage http://www.cod.edu http://personal.kwom.com/Kafkaz/kfitch/ http://personal.kwom.com/Kafkaz/ptweb/ From teaching_composition-admin Fri Jun 9 11:42:15 2000 Received: from mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.51]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01074 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 11:42:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.79.45.89]) by mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000609164145.QNLJ9011.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@worldnet.att.net> for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:41:45 +0000 Message-ID: <39412CA0.E0F4EBEA@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 12:42:57 -0500 From: "Jean L. Schulte" Reply-To: schulte@worldnet.att.net Organization: Duquesne University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Tangents Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Interesting point Susan made about tangents--I find that in my online discussions, many more tangential discussions do occur. I think it's because students aren't passively waiting for me to form the disucssion threads/topics. They jump to it instead. I just re-read the batch of student evals I received for this past term--one thing of note was the repeated line about how in chat classes (these were synchronous discussions, took place online during regular class time) they felt more able to pose a discussion point and that sometimes smaller groups would break off into their own threads, rejoining the more general conversation later. I have tracked this in the transcript of my classes, actually, it's kind of neat to see this. It's not a teacher-student, teacher-student conversation anymore. What I do with this information is bring the recapitulation of the points back to the classroom within the walls (you didn't think I met online every day, now? even though students would probably like that!) and that way I can revisit points that might have gotten a little lost in the shuffle, or give credit to the quieter students who typed in a good point. And since students are too busy typing to take notes during chat-classes, this is a good thing to do for them in that respect. I always bring the chat-class info somehow into the regular classroom discussion, and I think it benefits us all in many ways. Without going online, I think this multi-threaded learning environment can still be created in the traditional classroom, right? Sometimes students tell me as they're writing their research essays that the tangents are what made them interested in their topics. Connecting the tangents themselves, they've learned to apply the class discussion to their own interests. Sounds good to me! -- Jean Schulte, PhD Candidate, English schulte@att.net schulte@duq.edu Adjunct Faculty--Duquesne University From teaching_composition-admin Fri Jun 9 12:03:50 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (law-f19.hotmail.com [209.185.131.82]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA01267 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:03:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 78738 invoked by uid 0); 9 Jun 2000 17:03:21 -0000 Message-ID: <20000609170321.78737.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 32.100.43.66 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:03:21 PDT X-Originating-IP: [32.100.43.66] From: "Mary Boland" To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Jean's new twist... Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 13:03:21 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed First-- Paul's apology to the group reminds me of exactly why I love this field so much... it's filled with people willing to be reflective and HUMAN!! Thanks, Paul... But the main reason I write: Jean's new twist appeals to me as a subject worth pursuing... I think gender and social expectations play a huge role in who speaks and who gets heard. This has been an area of particular concern to me because I think that all sorts of exclusionary practices get bound up in linguistic practices because social roles are created in and thru language. I'm thinking here of the doublebind that sociolinguists identify for women: the public forum is defined by masculine discourse styles. Women, however, are generally socialized in what might be called feminine styles. Women who bring more feminine presentation styles to the public forum often go unheard. Women who develop masculine styles of presentation are dismissed for being inappropriate. From here my thoughts begin to fly ... I find myself thinking back to some glass ceiling articles from the early or mid nineties that discussed how women were more and more becoming middle management people, but then getting stuck... why? their tendencies to be less directive, more collaborative worked well at the middle level to make their workers productive, but it was presumed that they didn't have the toughness, directness and decisiveness to be "leaders" at the upper management level. And I find myself thinking about the reports on how women who go to single sex schools are more likely to pursue careers in more traditionally masculine fields... like the sciences or math. Bringing this back to the classroom -- I also find myself thinking about the resentment and anger some of my men students have shown in response to the presence of assertive women. Of course, I know that I'm here painting these pictures in broad strokes and I don't want to generalize about all men or all women. But I do think there's a problem here that is worked into the very material of our language use and discourse expectations. Anyway -- as I see it, my job isn't just to teach women or any other group of students who are excluded from the public forum how to battle their way into it. It's also to teach the more "mainstream" students how to listen to and HEAR these "others." I try to do this by making our classrooms a study of how language makes social meaning -- i ask my students to consider how the rhetorical is located in the social AND how the social is located in the rhetorical. I guess, ultimately, I hope that when some of these linguistic social dynamics are denaturalized, that students will care enough about one another to think about how they can change them. But I don't want to preach to my students. I want to create a collaborative group of language investigators whose intellectual work may bring us to new understandings about things we've taken for granted. Does that make sense? As for the benefits of on-line discussion lists, etc. I think these forums can provide places for many students to join the conversation. But -- I also want them to be present in the classroom, and not just by way of "i'm interested" body language... Referring in class to what a student has said on-line and using that to spark a conversation is one way to include voices. But I also like to ask students to look at transcripts of conversations -- to analyze how people talk on-line, and consider what's diff't betw. class discussion and virtual discussion styles. (kind of self-ethnography). Often this is a time when students realize that some people who never talk in class talk a lot on line. And then the question of why comes up... okay -- i'm probably talking too much here when I should be writing my diss. but it really is fun to think about these things with others... Looking forward to hearing more... Mary Mary Boland slightduck@hotmail.com >From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com >Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >Subject: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #126 - 1 msg >Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 19:00:44 -0500 (CDT) > > >Send Teaching_Composition maillist submissions to > teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the web, visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com >You can reach the person managing the list at > teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > >(When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >"Re: Contents of Teaching_Composition digest...") > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. new twist (Jean L. Schulte) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:01:10 -0500 >From: "Jean L. Schulte" >Reply-To: schulte@worldnet.att.net >Organization: Duquesne University >To: "teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com" > >Subject: [Teaching_Composition] new twist > >Mary's comments are quite interesting to me! Thanks! I noted earlier >the gendered "bullying" that took place in a recent comp 101 class I >taught. I believe you may be right, in that students are schooled in >argument, and not in the classical sense, but in the Springerian sense. >I stress to my students that "argument" is not so much taking a position >and defending it to the death. There's nothing wrong with focusing on >the counterargument--in fact, I require them to do so in their essays. >That makes for informed research and for a more critically aware >position on the issue at hand. We look at some good samples of such >writing--King comes to mind, certainly there are others. But, it >doesn't help when (now that I'm thinking about it) I once had to use a >reader called _Crossfire_ for that course! > >Does this thread on gender and disucssion styles/argument relate in some >key ways to "whole class discussion" and ways to encourage all students, >no matter what their backgrounds (ok, so we can include class, race, >etc. here)? > >Jean > >-- >Jean Schulte, PhD Candidate, English >schulte@att.net >schulte@duq.edu >Adjunct Faculty--Duquesne University > > > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > >--__--__---- > >End of Teaching_Composition Digest ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From teaching_composition-admin Fri Jun 9 12:13:11 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (law-f256.hotmail.com [209.185.130.172]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA02262 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 12:13:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 10237 invoked by uid 0); 9 Jun 2000 17:12:37 -0000 Message-ID: <20000609171237.10236.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 32.100.43.66 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Fri, 09 Jun 2000 10:12:37 PDT X-Originating-IP: [32.100.43.66] From: "Mary Boland" To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: classroom atmosphere Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 13:12:37 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed okay, i couldn't resist one more comment... I think IMartin532 has a good point about encouraging rather than forcing and the need for a welcoming classroom atmosphere. In addition to what the teacher can do in this regard, I've found that it really helps to make sure that everyone in the class knows everyone else's name. I sat thru I can't recall how many "small" classes in college with a whole roomful of strangers who remained strangers for 14 weeks. This made it very hard for me to want to speak up. Mary Mary Boland slightduck@hotmail.com >From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com >Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >Subject: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #128 - 1 msg >Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 21:55:37 -0500 (CDT) > > >Send Teaching_Composition maillist submissions to > teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the web, visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com >You can reach the person managing the list at > teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > >(When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >"Re: Contents of Teaching_Composition digest...") > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: The quiet or introverted student (imartin532@aol.com) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >From: IMartin532@aol.com >Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 22:54:44 EDT >Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: The quiet or introverted student >To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >It's been my experience (over 30 years of teching) that providing a warm >and >friendly environment helps quiet students to participate. If students are >told at the very beginning of the semester that there are no stupid >questions >and that the teacher needs student responses to know whether or not he/she >is >getting his/her point across, students are more likely to participate in >discussions. In addition, if you point out that if a student has a >question, >the chances are that at least half of the class has the same question but >is >too frightened to ask it, the student will begin to ask questions. Of >course, it is extremely important to respond to questions in a positive >manner. If students feel that their questions are important and will be >answered, they will participate. If their comments during a discussion are >received as valuable contributions (even if they statements are incorrect, >the professor can respond in an inclusive way), they will begin to >participate in class. I think this is far preferable to calling on >students >who are too shy or frightened to participate. > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > >--__--__---- > >End of Teaching_Composition Digest ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From teaching_composition-admin Fri Jun 9 13:13:47 2000 Received: from mailhub.iastate.edu (mailhub.iastate.edu [129.186.1.102]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03438 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 13:13:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: from portal (aqabah.truserve.com [208.142.211.166]) by mailhub.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA25735; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 13:13:28 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000609130503.009735b0@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu> X-Sender: ewardle@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 13:13:35 -0500 To: "Mary Boland" , teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com From: Elizabeth A Wardle Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Jean's new twist... In-Reply-To: <20000609170321.78737.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Wow, this conversation really seems to be taking off. Which, I think, is a great example of how good things can get after they get "bad" when we are willing to be, as Mary puts it, reflective and human. I think the greatest motivator for our students to speak is for them to see us as human, to know that we are listening and might change in response to what they have to say. I"m not sure who said it earlier, but they were right when they said it helps to come into our classrooms and say, "Look, I don't feel good about how things are going" or "I'm sorry that I totally blew it yesterday" and then open it up for their feedback. I find my students are always willing to give me ideas for how to be a better teacher to them--and they usually do this in very gracious ways. Although some people suggest that I lose my "authority" and my students' "respect" when I ask them for ideas on how I can improve, I actually find just the opposite. I think my students respect me more for being real with them. They always mention it on evaluations, too--things like, "This class was good b/c the teacher wanted to be a better teacher and listened to our suggestions." Why do they think that makes a good teacher? For the same reasons we like that in our teachers. We want a human being up there, who has experiences like ours and doesn't know everything. And the result is that our students will talk more in classes where we are human and reflective. They may not talk with the whole group, but they will talk more with us. And that usually spills over more into talking with each other--more so if they know each other's names! P.S. For a future conversation, I will add that there are always one or two people in my classroom who tend to think that "human" and "reflective" corresponds to pushover. That can be dealt with--and once it is, they tend to open up and talk more, too. But that's another email conversation for later. Elizabeth At 01:03 PM 6/9/00 -0400, Mary Boland wrote: >First-- > >Paul's apology to the group reminds me of exactly why I love this field so >much... it's filled with people willing to be reflective and HUMAN!! >Thanks, Paul... > >But the main reason I write: > >Jean's new twist appeals to me as a subject worth pursuing... > >I think gender and social expectations play a huge role in who speaks and >who gets heard. This has been an area of particular concern to me because >I think that all sorts of exclusionary practices get bound up in >linguistic practices because social roles are created in and thru >language. I'm thinking here of the doublebind that sociolinguists >identify for women: the public forum is defined by masculine discourse >styles. Women, however, are generally socialized in what might be called >feminine styles. Women who bring more feminine presentation styles to the >public forum often go unheard. Women who develop masculine styles of >presentation are dismissed for being inappropriate. > > From here my thoughts begin to fly ... I find myself thinking back to > some glass ceiling articles from the early or mid nineties that discussed > how women were more and more becoming middle management people, but then > getting stuck... why? their tendencies to be less directive, more > collaborative worked well at the middle level to make their workers > productive, but it was presumed that they didn't have the toughness, > directness and decisiveness to be "leaders" at the upper management level. > >And I find myself thinking about the reports on how women who go >to single sex schools are more likely to pursue careers in more >traditionally masculine fields... like the sciences or math. > >Bringing this back to the classroom -- I also find myself thinking about >the resentment and anger some of my men students have shown in response to >the presence of assertive women. > >Of course, I know that I'm here painting these pictures in broad strokes >and I don't want to generalize about all men or all women. But I do think >there's a problem here that is worked into the very material of our >language use and discourse expectations. > >Anyway -- as I see it, my job isn't just to teach women or any other group >of students who are excluded from the public forum how to battle their way >into it. It's also to teach the more "mainstream" students how to listen >to and HEAR these "others." I try to do this by making our classrooms a >study of how language makes social meaning -- i ask my students to >consider how the rhetorical is located in the social AND how the social is >located in the rhetorical. > >I guess, ultimately, I hope that when some of these linguistic social >dynamics are denaturalized, that students will care enough about one >another to think about how they can change them. > >But I don't want to preach to my students. I want to create a >collaborative group of language investigators whose intellectual work may >bring us to new understandings about things we've taken for granted. > >Does that make sense? > >As for the benefits of on-line discussion lists, etc. I think these >forums can provide places for many students to join the conversation. But >-- I also want them to be present in the classroom, and not just by way of >"i'm interested" body language... > >Referring in class to what a student has said on-line and using that to >spark a conversation is one way to include voices. But I also like to ask >students to look at transcripts of conversations -- to analyze how people >talk on-line, and consider what's diff't betw. class discussion and >virtual discussion styles. (kind of self-ethnography). Often this is a >time when students realize that some people who never talk in class talk a >lot on line. And then the question of why comes up... > >okay -- i'm probably talking too much here when I should be writing my >diss. but it really is fun to think about these things with others... > >Looking forward to hearing more... > >Mary > >Mary Boland >slightduck@hotmail.com > > > > > >>From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com >>Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >>To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >>Subject: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #126 - 1 msg >>Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 19:00:44 -0500 (CDT) >> >> >>Send Teaching_Composition maillist submissions to >> teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >> >>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the web, visit >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com >>You can reach the person managing the list at >> teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com >> >>(When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >>"Re: Contents of Teaching_Composition digest...") >> >> >>Today's Topics: >> >> 1. new twist (Jean L. Schulte) >> >>--__--__-- >> >>Message: 1 >>Date: Thu, 08 Jun 2000 20:01:10 -0500 >>From: "Jean L. Schulte" >>Reply-To: schulte@worldnet.att.net >>Organization: Duquesne University >>To: "teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com" >> >>Subject: [Teaching_Composition] new twist >> >>Mary's comments are quite interesting to me! Thanks! I noted earlier >>the gendered "bullying" that took place in a recent comp 101 class I >>taught. I believe you may be right, in that students are schooled in >>argument, and not in the classical sense, but in the Springerian sense. >>I stress to my students that "argument" is not so much taking a position >>and defending it to the death. There's nothing wrong with focusing on >>the counterargument--in fact, I require them to do so in their essays. >>That makes for informed research and for a more critically aware >>position on the issue at hand. We look at some good samples of such >>writing--King comes to mind, certainly there are others. But, it >>doesn't help when (now that I'm thinking about it) I once had to use a >>reader called _Crossfire_ for that course! >> >>Does this thread on gender and disucssion styles/argument relate in some >>key ways to "whole class discussion" and ways to encourage all students, >>no matter what their backgrounds (ok, so we can include class, race, >>etc. here)? >> >>Jean >> >>-- >>Jean Schulte, PhD Candidate, English >>schulte@att.net >>schulte@duq.edu >>Adjunct Faculty--Duquesne University >> >> >> >> >> >>--__--__-- >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >>http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> >>--__--__---- >> >>End of Teaching_Composition Digest > >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > >If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat >your information. Elizabeth A. Wardle Rhetoric & Professional Communication Program Department of English Iowa State University of Science and Technology ewardle@iastate.edu www.public.iastate.edu/~ewardle/ From teaching_composition-admin Fri Jun 9 13:23:46 2000 Received: from mailhub.iastate.edu (mailhub.iastate.edu [129.186.1.102]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA03586 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 13:23:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from portal (aqabah.truserve.com [208.142.211.166]) by mailhub.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAA27084 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 13:23:42 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000609131344.0094fb40@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu> X-Sender: ewardle@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 13:23:46 -0500 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com From: Elizabeth A Wardle Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Grading participation? In-Reply-To: <20000609171237.10236.qmail@hotmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed I can't resist one more thing, either. As for grading participation, here is my solution. It is human and fallible, but so far I like it. At the beginning of the semester I have students set goals for themselves, not just about writing about also about participating, collaborating, attending, etc. Then I have them self-reflect in writing at the end of the semester and tell me what participation grade they should get in the class and why. Before they write it we talk about general things like what it means to do the bare minimum (come to class and be prepared) and what it means to go above and beyond. Usually by then we have lots of concrete examples (ie, "if you had your reading questions done on time every day, that is the bare minimum. If in addition, you went into extra detail on you reading questions b/c you wanted to learn more, that is above and beyond."). Then I tell them that in their reflective letter to me they should explain anything and everything they want to. They should consider this their chance to talk to me privately w/o getting interrupted. They can tell me whatever they want, explain their goals for themselves, what they were pleased with, etc. What I end up with is different with every person. I've had very eloquent reflections from introverts who explained how they had grown in confidence over the semester and, even though they didn't speak much, speaking at all was a big accomplishment for them. I've also had very eloquent letters from people who totally screwed around and admit it. I don't tell them that they are assigning themselves a grade, I tell them this is their opportunity to help me decide on a fair grade. But I almost always give them the participation grade they say they deserve, unless they are just totally dishonest or unreflective (ie, the kid who said "I didn't read anything but that shouldn't count against me b/c you can't learn to write from reading a book anyway."). I like this self-assessment and they seem to, also. I also think it helps me to be a lot fairer with this very tricky grade--participation is not an easy thing to judge. This way, I just take attendance, keep track of who turns stuff in on time, and am freed from giving points to every little activity. They are appraising themselves. Elizabeth At 01:12 PM 6/9/00 -0400, Mary Boland wrote: >okay, > >i couldn't resist one more comment... > >I think IMartin532 has a good point about encouraging rather than forcing >and the need for a welcoming classroom atmosphere. >In addition to what the teacher can do in this regard, I've found that it >really helps to make sure that everyone in the class knows everyone else's >name. I sat thru I can't recall how many "small" classes in college with >a whole roomful of strangers who remained strangers for 14 weeks. This >made it very hard for me to want to speak up. > >Mary > > >Mary Boland >slightduck@hotmail.com > > > >>From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com >>Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >>To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >>Subject: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #128 - 1 msg >>Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 21:55:37 -0500 (CDT) >> >> >>Send Teaching_Composition maillist submissions to >> teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >> >>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the web, visit >> http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >> teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com >>You can reach the person managing the list at >> teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com >> >>(When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >>"Re: Contents of Teaching_Composition digest...") >> >> >>Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Re: The quiet or introverted student (imartin532@aol.com) >> >>--__--__-- >> >>Message: 1 >>From: IMartin532@aol.com >>Date: Thu, 8 Jun 2000 22:54:44 EDT >>Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: The quiet or introverted student >>To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >> >>It's been my experience (over 30 years of teching) that providing a warm and >>friendly environment helps quiet students to participate. If students are >>told at the very beginning of the semester that there are no stupid questions >>and that the teacher needs student responses to know whether or not he/she is >>getting his/her point across, students are more likely to participate in >>discussions. In addition, if you point out that if a student has a question, >>the chances are that at least half of the class has the same question but is >>too frightened to ask it, the student will begin to ask questions. Of >>course, it is extremely important to respond to questions in a positive >>manner. If students feel that their questions are important and will be >>answered, they will participate. If their comments during a discussion are >>received as valuable contributions (even if they statements are incorrect, >>the professor can respond in an inclusive way), they will begin to >>participate in class. I think this is far preferable to calling on students >>who are too shy or frightened to participate. >> >> >> >>--__--__-- >> >>_______________________________________________ >>Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >>http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >> >> >>--__--__---- >> >>End of Teaching_Composition Digest > >________________________________________________________________________ >Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com > > >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > >If you no longer wish to recieve this mailing please go to >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition to updat >your information. Elizabeth A. Wardle Rhetoric & Professional Communication Program Department of English Iowa State University of Science and Technology ewardle@iastate.edu www.public.iastate.edu/~ewardle/ From teaching_composition-admin Fri Jun 9 15:46:01 2000 Received: from swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net [207.217.120.123]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id PAA06317 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 15:46:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ncsu.edu (sdn-ar-003ncraleP247.dialsprint.net [158.252.90.9]) by swan.prod.itd.earthlink.net (8.9.3-EL_1_3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id NAB00880 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 13:45:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <39415711.1FBCB6C@ncsu.edu> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 16:44:02 -0400 From: Chris Anson Reply-To: chris_anson@ncsu.edu Organization: Chris Anson X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Discussion-Based Teaching References: <4.2.0.58.20000609131344.0094fb40@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This has been an interesting discussion so far. We haven't seen many refs. to helpful books and articles on discussions, so I thought I'd toss this one into the mix. I've been impressed with Brookfield's work for some time, especially _Becoming a Critically Reflective Teacher_, which resonates a lot with recent work on the scholarship of teaching and on Schon's process of reflective practice. At the POD conference in Split Rock, PA, last fall, Brookfield led a really engaging session in which we tried out one of his egalitarian discussion strategies in small groups, and then talked about the experience. Here's the full reference for his book on discussion-method teaching: Brookfield, Stephen. Title: Discussion as a way of teaching : tools and techniques for democratic classrooms / Stephen D. Brookfield, Stephen Preskill. Published: San Francisco, Calif. : Jossey-Bass Publishers, c1999. Edition: 1st ed. Subject(s): College teaching. Discussion--Study and teaching. Forums (Discussion and debate) -- Chris M. Anson Professor of English Director, Campus Writing and Speaking Program Box 8101 (OR) 131G Tompkins North Carolina State University Raleigh, NC 27695-8105 (919) 513-2577 From teaching_composition-admin Fri Jun 9 16:12:42 2000 Received: from mail.kwom.com (root@mail.kwom.com [206.185.16.5]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id QAA07397 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:12:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kwom.com (pm3-2-08.kwom.com [206.185.17.72]) by mail.kwom.com (8.9.2/8.8.8) with ESMTP id QAA29652; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 16:10:38 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <39415DB8.A38CCE3C@kwom.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 16:12:38 -0500 From: Kafkaz Reply-To: Kafkaz@kwom.com Organization: College of DuPage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Elizabeth A Wardle CC: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Grading participation? References: <4.2.0.58.20000609131344.0094fb40@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Elizabeth A Wardle wrote: > I can't resist one more thing, either. > > As for grading participation, here is my solution. It is human and > fallible, but so far I like it. At the beginning of the semester I have > students set goals for themselves, not just about writing about also about > participating, collaborating, attending, etc. Then I have them self-reflect > in writing at the end of the semester Ooh, yes! Reflective self-assessment is a wonderful means of bringing students into that "metasphere" (reflecting on styles of learning and types/amounts of progress) in a way that both enhances their learning *and* extends the conversations always swirling throughout the class. As a closing assignment in English 103, our FYC research course, I always ask students to write an essay, in whatever style they wish on "the making of the research project." To write them, they draw on *everything*--trips to the library, journals, fits and starts and do it all overs, conference sessions, research logs and journals, group work, class discussions, nights spent worrying or eating their way through composing a few pages--the whole bit. Besides being by turns hilarious, heartwarming, and painful to read, those closing essays give me my firmest, clearest sense not only of how students have grown as writers and thinkers, but also how I can best assist future students in *their* growth. Interestingly, too, those closing reflective essays often turn out to be quite long--a relatively effortless five to eight pages from students once firmly convinced that anything over three counts as torture, and from students who've only just finished working their way through the writing of twelve to fifteen page research projects with all the ups and extras like proposals and annotated bibs. Amazing thing, for I do specify that while I will read and consider the essays, I won't grade them. Anyway, I'm with you, Elizabeth. There's nothing the least bit weak about confessing our discomfort, distress, or errors to students, or about soliciting their feedback. If anything, it takes a great deal of strength and confidence not only to ask those sorts of questions, but to listen carefully and generously to the answers. Paul, for instance, is clearly a most generous listener--something to admire and emulate. Kathy at C.O.D. (Wondering if any one else writes along with students, including the self-reflections, throughout a course? I *try*. Hot as blazes here--I'm off for one of those frozen coffee concoctions.) -- Kathy A.Fitch Assistant Professor of English College of DuPage http://www.cod.edu http://personal.kwom.com/Kafkaz/kfitch/ http://personal.kwom.com/Kafkaz/ptweb/ From teaching_composition-admin Fri Jun 9 18:15:03 2000 Received: from mailhub.iastate.edu (mailhub.iastate.edu [129.186.1.102]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA09775 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 18:15:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from portal (moonstone.truserve.com [208.142.209.44]) by mailhub.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA25616; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 18:15:00 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000609181031.0095dac0@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu> X-Sender: ewardle@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 18:15:09 -0500 To: Kafkaz@kwom.com From: Elizabeth A Wardle Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] Grading participation? Cc: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com In-Reply-To: <39415DB8.A38CCE3C@kwom.com> References: <4.2.0.58.20000609131344.0094fb40@ewardle.mail.iastate.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed At 04:12 PM 6/9/00 -0500, Kafkaz wrote: >Interestingly, too, those closing >reflective essays often turn out to be quite long--a relatively effortless >five to eight pages from students once firmly convinced that anything over >three counts as torture, and from students who've only just finished >working their way through the writing of twelve to fifteen page research >projects >with all the ups and extras like proposals and annotated bibs. Yes, I've found this, too. Students can write books in their reflective essays. They laugh when I tell them past students have written up to 15 pages, then they end up doing it, too. I think it's a great way to get them to see that writing does not have to be painful and torturous. Plus I *hope* (but don't really know) that this will start them on their way to being more reflective people We talk about why it's good to reflect--that often you don't even know what you know til you reflect on it and put it in words. And often in their reflections they concur (and I don't think it's just a brown nosing move) and say that they hadn't realized such and such a thing til I asked them to reflect and write it down. To bring this back (connect :)) it to the topic at hand: I find that having them reflect in writing before class discussions is also a good way to get things going. If they reflect about the reading or their writing or whatever, they are often more ready to talk in discussion. Basically, I am avoiding grading my students' business proposals, which is why I am talking so much today. Back to work. Elizabeth Elizabeth A. Wardle Rhetoric & Professional Communication Program Department of English Iowa State University of Science and Technology ewardle@iastate.edu www.public.iastate.edu/~ewardle/ From teaching_composition-admin Fri Jun 9 18:53:30 2000 Received: from mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.46]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id SAA10059 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 18:53:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.76.90.197]) by mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000609235255.LRDQ1339.mtiwmhc21.worldnet.att.net@worldnet.att.net> for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 23:52:55 +0000 Message-ID: <394191AF.F505B5B4@worldnet.att.net> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 19:54:08 -0500 From: "Jean L. Schulte" Reply-To: schulte@worldnet.att.net Organization: Duquesne University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] discussion methods/books, etc. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks for that tip, the books sound great. Guess I've been approaching discussion based classroom from a theoretical standpoint, not a praxis-oriented one. So, that's a blind spot I have. I'd love to hear more suggestions from people. But, I do have a suggestion or two: I have found a lot of good ideas for building discussion, checking what students actually get out of the discussion, etc. from _Classroom Assessment Techniques: A Handbook for College Teachers_ by Thomas Angelo and K. Patricia Cross. It's a really good book to use in a discussion group among teachers, too. But for classroom practices, I've also enjoyed reading bell hooks--especially _Teaching to Transgress_. -- Jean Schulte, PhD Candidate, English schulte@att.net schulte@duq.edu Adjunct Faculty--Duquesne University From teaching_composition-admin Fri Jun 9 19:52:07 2000 Received: from mail.kwom.com (root@mail.kwom.com [206.185.16.5]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id TAA11262 for ; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:52:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kwom.com (pm3-1-41.kwom.com [206.185.17.41]) by mail.kwom.com (8.9.2/8.8.8) with ESMTP id TAA05656; Fri, 9 Jun 2000 19:50:16 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <39419199.C7DC4FE0@kwom.com> Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 19:53:55 -0500 From: Kafkaz Reply-To: Kafkaz@kwom.com Organization: College of DuPage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: schulte@worldnet.att.net CC: "teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com" Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] CATs Online References: <394191AF.F505B5B4@worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Jean L. Schulte" wrote: > I have found a lot of good ideas for building discussion, checking what > students actually get out of the discussion, etc. from _Classroom > Assessment Techniques: A Handbook for College Teachers_ by Thomas > Angelo and K. Patricia Cross. Yes, and there are also plenty of excellent websites devoted to CATs. One of the best, I think, is SIU Edwardsville's at http://www.siue.edu/~deder/assess/catmain.html Anybody who's interested might also want to have a look at our Assessment Web at http://www.cod.edu/outcomes/ I've also gathered some assessment info to serve our part-time English faculty at http://personal.kwom.com/Kafkaz/ptweb/assess.htm Kathy at C.O.D. -- Kathy A.Fitch Assistant Professor of English College of DuPage http://www.cod.edu http://personal.kwom.com/Kafkaz/kfitch/ http://personal.kwom.com/Kafkaz/ptweb/ From teaching_composition-admin Sat Jun 10 11:21:45 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (law-f186.hotmail.com [209.185.131.249]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA02193 for ; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 11:21:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 98153 invoked by uid 0); 10 Jun 2000 16:21:13 -0000 Message-ID: <20000610162113.98152.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 32.100.64.66 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sat, 10 Jun 2000 09:21:13 PDT X-Originating-IP: [32.100.64.66] From: "Mary Boland" To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #142 - 1 msg Date: Sat, 10 Jun 2000 12:21:13 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Okay, I'll add to the recommended reading list: For anyone interested in issues of gender and conversation, try Evelyn Ashton-Jones article, "Collaboration, Conversation, and the Politics of Gender" is very useful. It's in Phelps and Emig's, *Feminine Principles and Women's Experience in American Composition and Rhetoric,* U of Pittsburgh Press, 1995. Mary Mary Boland slightduck@hotmail.com >From: teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com >Reply-To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com >Subject: Teaching_Composition digest, Vol 1 #142 - 1 msg >Date: Fri, 9 Jun 2000 18:53:41 -0500 (CDT) > > >Send Teaching_Composition maillist submissions to > teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com > >To subscribe or unsubscribe via the web, visit > http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition >or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > teaching_composition-request@mailman.eppg.com >You can reach the person managing the list at > teaching_composition-admin@mailman.eppg.com > >(When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than >"Re: Contents of Teaching_Composition digest...") > > >Today's Topics: > > 1. discussion methods/books, etc. (Jean L. Schulte) > >--__--__-- > >Message: 1 >Date: Fri, 09 Jun 2000 19:54:08 -0500 >From: "Jean L. Schulte" >Reply-To: schulte@worldnet.att.net >Organization: Duquesne University >To: "teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com" > >Subject: [Teaching_Composition] discussion methods/books, etc. > >Thanks for that tip, the books sound great. Guess I've been approaching >discussion based classroom from a theoretical standpoint, not a >praxis-oriented one. So, that's a blind spot I have. I'd love to hear >more suggestions from people. But, I do have a suggestion or two: I >have found a lot of good ideas for building discussion, checking what >students actually get out of the discussion, etc. from _Classroom >Assessment Techniques: A Handbook for College Teachers_ by Thomas >Angelo and K. Patricia Cross. It's a really good book to use in a >discussion group among teachers, too. But for classroom practices, I've >also enjoyed reading bell hooks--especially _Teaching to Transgress_. > > >-- >Jean Schulte, PhD Candidate, English >schulte@att.net >schulte@duq.edu >Adjunct Faculty--Duquesne University > > > > > >--__--__-- > >_______________________________________________ >Teaching_Composition maillist - Teaching_Composition@mailman.eppg.com >http://mailman.eppg.com/mailman/listinfo/teaching_composition > > >--__--__---- > >End of Teaching_Composition Digest ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From teaching_composition-admin Sun Jun 11 10:12:25 2000 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00351 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 10:12:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.vt.edu (gkar.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.40]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA03781 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 11:12:25 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pheilker.vt.edu ([128.173.53.139]) by gkar.cc.vt.edu (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) with ESMTP id <0FVZ00I18WWNTW@gkar.cc.vt.edu> for teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 11:12:24 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 11:14:44 -0400 From: Paul Heilker Subject: [Teaching_Composition] "listening skills" X-Sender: pheilker@mail.vt.edu To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Message-id: <4.3.1.1.20000611105044.00a80100@mail.vt.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii I was struck by Mary's comment that "my job isn't just to teach women or any other group of students who are excluded from the public forum how to battle their way into it. It's also to teach the more 'mainstream' students how to listen to and HEAR these 'others.'" Our Dean recently told me that employers are now voicing concerns about our graduates "lack of listening skills." While employers have long complained about their new hires' lack of reading, writing, and speaking skills, this lament seems to be new. Specifically, employers are unhappy with college graduates' inability to hear what is being said in a meeting, to listen to what is being said, and then add their own relevant/germane/worthwhile/meaningful rejoinders when the time comes. As an English and composition person, I am pretty well-versed in teaching reading and writing skills; and as a student of rhetoric, I am also pretty good at teaching speaking skills. But listening skills? Hmmmmm. How *do* we teach students to listen, to hear what others are saying? PH From teaching_composition-admin Sun Jun 11 10:27:14 2000 Received: from mrhat.citlink.net (mrhat.citlink.net [207.173.229.15]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00493 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 10:27:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from citlink.net ([170.215.215.161]) by mrhat.citlink.net (Post.Office MTA v3.5.3 release 223 ID# 0-66929U100000L100000S0V35) with ESMTP id net for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 10:28:25 -0500 Message-ID: <3943D9DD.348FCF8F@citlink.net> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 11:27:38 -0700 From: Rebecca Moore Howard Reply-To: rehoward@syr.edu Organization: Syracuse University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] listening skills References: <200006111512.KAA00377@greenhouse.eppg.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > How *do* we teach students to listen, to hear what others are saying? One strategy that works well for me is to *demand* that they listen. I ask a question and either wait for an answer or call on someone. Once that student has spoken, I call on another student and ask, "What's your reaction to what she just said?" Often the response is "what?" (Shades of *Pulp Fiction*. . . . .) So I ask the first student to repeat what she said. When she does, she usually turns to the other student to talk. Now she's no longer talking to me; she's talking to her classmate, who is listening. That classmate, having now heard what was said, often responds simply, "I agree." But I don't leave it at that. I ask things like "What part of it do you agree with?" "Why do you agree?" And then I turn to the rest of the class and invite further comments. Almost always there are some. They're no longer performing for me in a Q&A session; now they're listening and talking to each other. Meanwhile, I have to monitor myself very carefully to make sure I'm not evaluating their contributions. I absolutely must NOT say things like, "Very interesting" or "good answer." That junk puts them in the performance mode; moreover, they often (correctly) take it as a sign that the teacher isn't really listening, either. Instead of being an evaluator, I'm a facilitator--and also a participant. I chime in with my own opinion from time to time, and I'm careful to say, once in a while, that it's only my opinion, not something that they are required to espouse as their own. In addition to avoiding the evaluator role, I also have to be careful not to embarrass my students. I challenge them sometimes, pushing them to be more reflective or more analytical, but I work hard not to push them to where they're going to be reluctant to speak up. This isn't a one-time dose that cures the listening problem; it's a strategy that I use regularly. Sometimes students really hate it at first: they hate being called upon, and they hate having to listen instead of doze. But it doesn't take long before they're really engaged, and by the end of the semester, they think it's the best thing about the class (which of course may speak ill of my other teaching strategies. . . . .). Becky Howard Syracuse U From teaching_composition-admin Sun Jun 11 11:22:02 2000 Received: from mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.50]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA01722 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 11:22:01 -0500 (CDT) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.76.91.246]) by mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000611162132.GVUK1605.mtiwmhc25.worldnet.att.net@worldnet.att.net> for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:21:32 +0000 Message-ID: <3943CAE7.525CC293@worldnet.att.net> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 12:22:48 -0500 From: "Jean L. Schulte" Reply-To: schulte@worldnet.att.net Organization: Duquesne University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] listening Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There actually is a book out there on listening skills (hey, ok, I'm sure there are many!) and here's the info: Brownell, Judi. _Listening: Attitudes, Principles and Skills_. I'd used it when I taught communications skills core curriculum courses at Robert Morris College--they have students take a five course core and this is the one book that they use in each of those classes, they build various chapters into each course. But, I think that there's something to be said for creating a standard for students to follow sans book--what was said before about demanding listening is right on track, as is setting a good example (I often hear students tell me on evals. that they appreciated the way I always took time to answer their questions, and treated their thoughts/views/points as important). Kathy--any good assessment exercises to encourage/check on their listening skills/what they're retaining? Jean Schulte, PhD Candidate, English schulte@att.net schulte@duq.edu Adjunct Faculty--Duquesne University From teaching_composition-admin Sun Jun 11 12:01:11 2000 Received: from imo-d10.mx.aol.com (imo-d10.mx.aol.com [205.188.157.42]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id MAA01995 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 12:01:10 -0500 (CDT) From: LERUTH@aol.com Received: from LERUTH@aol.com by imo-d10.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v27.10.) id i.6c.1e699b (3987); Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:00:39 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <6c.1e699b.26751fb6@aol.com> Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:00:38 EDT Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] "listening skills" To: Paul.Heilker@vt.edu, teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 3.0 for Windows 95 sub 52 That is a good question. We must first remember that listening has a lot to do with not only hearing what is said, but hearing and interpreting/understanding what is said. Interpreting and understanding something often times varies from person to person. For example, one person says the same thing to two different people, and those "listeners" may have two different opinions or interpretations about what was said. So, teaching how to listen is not teaching what you understand to be correct, but showing the student how to formulate a valid, justifiable interpretation of what was said and responding to it accordingly. The employers also need to be mindful that just because someone doesn't respond the way they see fit doesn't mean that person is not listening; that person may have interpreted/understood the comment different than what the employer intended. Not to be confrontational, but maybe the employers need to better their communications skills. English majors are trained to "interpret" and often find different meanings in all sorts of texts. Yes, these interpretations are opinion-based, but backed by theory and a valid argument, at least they should be. Why wouldn't that be used for all forms of communication? SJ From teaching_composition-admin Sun Jun 11 15:17:09 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (law-f208.hotmail.com [209.185.130.118]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA06234 for ; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 15:17:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 50623 invoked by uid 0); 11 Jun 2000 20:16:33 -0000 Message-ID: <20000611201633.50622.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 32.100.64.100 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Sun, 11 Jun 2000 13:16:33 PDT X-Originating-IP: [32.100.64.100] From: "Mary Boland" To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: hearing... Date: Sun, 11 Jun 2000 16:16:33 EDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed I think running the class as a "language study" class has made an enormous difference in the level of listening going on bc it requires that we all think about how meaning is made & negotiated -- how our own histories and social locations help determine how we hear each other and how we respond. In other words, students have to listen to themselves and consider how their own words and voices affect others. Sometimes, to foreground the idea that words matter (and that we should pay attention to them), I'll start a class by simply writing my first and last names on the board and the course number. Then I'll ask students what they think they should call me. This leads to the question of why they think they should call me a certain thing, what expectations that enacts, and how those expectations will help set up future classroom dynamics. I'll also ask what they expect me to call them and what that signifies...Then we collaborately decide what we will call each other in relation to the type of classroom we want to foster... I also try to make sure that everyone in the class knows everyone else's name. I figure students are more likely to talk and listen to one another if they know one other. When we initially introduce ourselves I take copious notes so i can try to name everyone by the next session. The next class, I give it a whirl. Then I ask someone else to give it a try. If that student misses, I have her pick someone else to be "it" and that person must start the naming from the beginning. This leads to a lot of repetition and a lot of laughs. Usually by the third class everyone knows everyone else and some of the shyness is lifted. I've also been lucky enough to have had small writing classes (15-20) so I can run the class seminar style. I always try for seminar classrooms, but if I don't get one, we form the old circle...I've noticed though, that a seminar table seems more serious and grown up to students than the circle of desks. Mary Mary Boland slightduck@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From teaching_composition-admin Mon Jun 12 10:17:52 2000 Received: from mail.kwom.com (root@mail.kwom.com [206.185.16.5]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA00586 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:17:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from kwom.com (pm3-1-36.kwom.com [206.185.17.36]) by mail.kwom.com (8.9.2/8.8.8) with ESMTP id KAA15747; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:15:45 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <3944FF5D.49A7C357@kwom.com> Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 10:19:21 -0500 From: Kafkaz Reply-To: Kafkaz@kwom.com Organization: College of DuPage X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: schulte@worldnet.att.net CC: "teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com" Subject: Re: [Teaching_Composition] listening References: <3943CAE7.525CC293@worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit "Jean L. Schulte" wrote: > Kathy--any good assessment exercises to encourage/check on their > listening skills/what they're retaining? > > Yeah, Jean--there really are tons. You could start with an ERIC database search, which will yield several bibs on listening skills, or try a general web search on "listening rubrics," "teaching listening" or "assessing listening skills" (much of what you will find will flow from K-12 and 2nd Language teaching), but it may be that Communications Across the Curriculum (CAC) resources do a better job of encompassing the interests and concerns we've been exploring. For CAC info, one good place to begin is SIU Carbondale's site at http://www.siu.edu/departments/cac/ Good to tour around in, with lots of good info and links to more--be sure not to miss their CAC guide for teachers: http://www.siu.edu/departments/cac/guide/index.html#read Seems like how you choose to approach this will depend on whether your main concern is *grading* listening/discussion/collaboration or *teaching/learning about* them. I'm always hesistant about mentioning my enthusiasm for assessment because I think most people still do hear "grading" in that, where I think of it as a teaching/learning/classroom research activity. Not that the two must always be mutually exclusive, but I do think the emphasis matters. Kathy at C.O.D. -- Kathy A.Fitch Assistant Professor of English College of DuPage http://www.cod.edu http://personal.kwom.com/Kafkaz/kfitch/ http://personal.kwom.com/Kafkaz/ptweb/ From teaching_composition-admin Mon Jun 12 12:51:40 2000 Received: from VAX1.BEMIDJI.MSUS.EDU (VAX1.BEMIDJI.MSUS.EDU [199.17.176.1]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA03535 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:51:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [209.191.193.41] by VAX1.BEMIDJI.MSUS.EDU with ESMTP for teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:51:39 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 12:51:56 -0500 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com From: M C Morgan Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: hearing... Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" On 6/11/00, Mary Boland wrote regarding [Teaching_Composition] Re: hearing...: >I think running the class as a "language study" class has made an >enormous difference in the level of listening going on bc it >requires that we all think about how meaning is made & negotiated -- >how our own histories and social locations help determine how we >hear each other and how we respond. In other words, students have >to listen to themselves and consider how their own words and voices >affect others. > A minor, morning epiphany for me: To me, it's Mary's understanding of the class as "language study," as something other (more?) than a skills course that makes teaching writing, thinking, and hearing (ultimately inseparable) possible. What I mean is that it doesn't look like we actually teach "listening skills" (or "writing skills" or any other kill set) directly. Instead, perhaps, students learn to write, listen, and hear in the course of doing whatever it is we're doing, in the course of studying language. What business might be asking for is better listeners (not skills, but people); and we can teach - and students can learn - listening thorough discussion. michael -- Dr. M C Morgan * Assoc. Prof English * Director of Composition Bemidji State University * Bemidji * MN 56601 mcmorg@vax1.bemidji.msus.edu * 218.755.2814 http://cal.bemidji.msus.edu/english/morgan/ From teaching_composition-admin Mon Jun 12 23:37:12 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (f204.law7.hotmail.com [216.33.237.204]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA17797 for ; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:37:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 79939 invoked by uid 0); 13 Jun 2000 04:36:37 -0000 Message-ID: <20000613043637.79938.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 38.193.106.195 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Mon, 12 Jun 2000 21:36:36 PDT X-Originating-IP: [38.193.106.195] From: "Shelley Reid" To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Re: [Teaching_Composition] Date: Mon, 12 Jun 2000 23:36:36 CDT Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed Whoa -- stay off e-mail for a few days, and suddenly the whole conversation has taken off. As an acclaimed introvert who's silent publicly everywhere *except* the classroom and e-mail, I've found many of these comments to be really interesting, and am itching to respond to a few. (Forgive the long and asyncronous post!) First, I'd like to track quite voluntarily back to an original topic of conversation *even though* its designation as the Proper Topic now makes it truly passe for anyone in the know. ;) Jean wrote: " I find ways to incorporate other activities into "participation." For you, then, is participation more than verbal communication? Can you assess for listening thoughtfully and give points for that? I'd really like to hear others' insights on these issues, thanks!!" I do keep a class-participation segment of the grade as part of all my classes, mostly as a way of signalling students the seriousness of my commitment to the idea that learning has to be a minds-on, engaged process. But I count lots of different things as participation: speaking in full discussion, posting to e-mail, providing written comments to peers, contributing to formal and informal small-group discussions, asking questions, etc. I'm still working on ways to make such evaluations "fair" or "objective"; I like the idea posted here recently about including students' self-evaluations in that judgment. I've found, too, that my own shyness is at its worst in situations where I don't know "the rules," or where conversation goes by so quickly that I don't have time to put together a "good answer." So I try to vary classes to provide my "shy" students time and structure, such as writing for 5 minutes and then having people read what they've written, or setting up a day's discussion with the "rule" that everyone needs to sign up for one paragraph of the reading to say *something* about, or that everyone will say *something* at least twice (using student volunteers to call on students who haven't spoken recently). Second, Mary wrote about the pitfalls of arguing: " I've found that my most "college-prepared" students have been drilled in the fine art of argument via the five paragraph theme and debate-style classroom presentations. … Because aggressive argumentation is the style of presentation that these students have been taught is valued in college and because they consider themselves good college students, they really come on with verbal guns blazing. It's not suprising to me that the majority of these students are white males from upper middle class backgrounds…. All of which is to say that a large number of the students in my classes arrive ready to polarize any topic because they think that that's what college requires. " I read an article last year (and I *cannot* find it right now, but I'll keep looking and post back with the info when I do) citing a study at Grinnell College in which students were interviewed about the kinds of critical thinking and discussing and learning that they do/did in college. The results reinforced the deadliness of this kind of arguing: students (from first to fourth year) noted again and again that they thought that they shouldn't enter a discussion unless they already knew the "facts" of their position, that they couldn't "speak" on an issue that they weren't personally involved with in their lives (white students felt unable to talk about racism, e.g.), that they entered a "discussion" only to try to persuade others to agree with them. So discussion was only rarely entered with an interest in learning more or an openness to changing one's mind. I don't have any solutions (neither, unfortunately, did the authors of the Grinnell study), and indeed find developing alternate discussion patterns even more difficult in my writing classes (which are designed primarily to focus on persuasive writing) than I have in my lit classes. (And in my lit classes, when we have weeks of good exploratory discussion but then I expect essays to be more cohesively persuasive, students -- perhaps rightly -- accuse me of unfairly switching standards on them.) I've found creative ways to *use* students' familiarity with argument culture (talk shows, courtroom dramas) to develp critical thinking, but still have trouble getting *beyond* those strategies, and would welcome suggestions. And third, very briefly: Susan writes about tangents that " In cases where the teacher (or other students) might think things are getting a little off track, sometimes what is needed is just asking people to articulate the connections they see. Let's say, for example, that our discussion somehow got onto the topic of nuclear physics while many people still wanted to discuss whole class discussions. These two topics seem pretty divergent-- would the better option be to say "Halt disscussion! Back to the topic!" or to find ways to make the second topic apply to the first (in this case, probably metaphorically, but who knows)?" A colleague of mine whose class I visited last fall used a strategy so simple and workable that I immediately began thinking of ways to use it. She drew a (large) box in the corner of the chalkboard, and when a student presented a question or idea that seemed to leap beyond the immediate issue, she scribbled a note about it in this Tangent Box. The student and her idea were thus recognized and recorded, the discusison moved on smoothly, and the students got an unobtrusive, in-process mini-lesson about idea-generation & topic focus. At the end of class, the instructor drew us back to the Tangent Box, noted ideas that could be used for essays or discussion topics for the next class, and invited additional responses to the ideas therein. It's not as nifty as letting a dozen different threads go along in a chat or listserv, but for a "traditional classroom" set-up, it's a neat trick. Enough. :- ) Time to let someone else speak for a while. shelley E. Shelley Reid English Department Oklahoma State University Stillwater, OK 74078-4069 esreid@hotmail.com ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com From teaching_composition-admin Wed Jun 14 09:27:00 2000 Received: from sable.cc.vt.edu (sable.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.30]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id JAA08043 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:27:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mail.vt.edu (gkar.cc.vt.edu [128.173.16.40]) by sable.cc.vt.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA28929 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:26:56 -0400 (EDT) Received: from pheilker.vt.edu ([128.173.49.11]) by gkar.cc.vt.edu (Sun Internet Mail Server sims.3.5.2000.03.23.18.03.p10) with ESMTP id <0FW50001LESR8J@gkar.cc.vt.edu> for teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:26:55 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:29:20 -0400 From: Paul Heilker Subject: [Teaching_Composition] listening/hearing/modelling X-Sender: pheilker@mail.vt.edu To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Message-id: <4.3.1.1.20000614094857.00a7d1a0@mail.vt.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 4.3.1 Content-type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Thanks to all who offered suggestions on how to help students listen to and hear each other. You reminded of something I do so often in my own teaching I had forgotten about it--I try to model the kinds of listening/hearing behaviors I would like my students to engage in: I try to summarize what the previous speaker has said before I respond to it, or ask another student to respond to it, or ask a follow-up question. And I ask my students to do the same--to summarize and/or respond to what the previous student has said before they launch into their own contributions. But I am torn about the idea of modelling. I regularly go back and forth as I debate with myself about what and how much I can and should model during class discussions. What I am getting at here, I guess, is the question of advocacy in the classroom, the question of "indoctrinating students." While I want to model open-mindedness and the willingness to listen carefully to alternative positions and change my mind as a result of that input, I also find myself wanting to model active commitment to one's values. [I am trying hard to avoid dichotomous, binary, either/or questions here, but I am finding it difficult. Bear with me--or please work around me. Don't let me get in your way.] What I guess I would like some advice about, then, is the following: To what extent should we teachers make our own political views explicitly known during class discussions? And why should we do so? Under what circumstances should we endeavor to hide our political views during class discussions? And why? Whenever I consider these questions, I hear the voice of one of our former GTAs who, after considering she could glean on the issue, lamented that "sometimes it seems as if the only person in the class who shouldn't have a voice is the teacher." PH From teaching_composition-admin Wed Jun 14 10:37:58 2000 Received: from mailhub.iastate.edu (mailhub.iastate.edu [129.186.1.102]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA09513 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:37:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from cmohrb (dial52.ppp.iastate.edu [129.186.97.52]) by mailhub.iastate.edu (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id KAA15704 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:37:55 -0500 Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.20000614103418.009a3e20@cmohrb.mail.iastate.edu> X-Sender: cmohrb@cmohrb.mail.iastate.edu (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.2.0.58 Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 10:38:19 -0500 To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com From: Carol A Mohrbacher Subject: [Teaching_Composition] listening and hearing Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed Hi everyone, I have been enjoying this latest conversation about listening and hearing. I have a problem with an international student, who doesn't seem to hear what is being said by either his classmates or me. Perhaps, some of you have suggestions. K.C. (pseudonym) is a senior from China. He is in my Business Communication class. He comes late, is aggressive, has asked to be moved to another project group, and now that he has been moved, he is still unsatisfied. He doesn't always seem to know what the group is doing (they have been working on a major project for 2 weeks) and complains that they sometimes talk of other things that aren't related to the project. This was also his complaint about the last group. I have tried to explain that sometimes people need to speak of other things in order to establish a relationship, but that his group is progressing nicely, so he shouldn't worry. He doesn't accept this rationale. This morning, I handed back a major assignment and midterm grades. K.C. hit the roof. While the groups worked, I tried to explain to him why he received a C on the major assignment and a C for a midterm grade. He didn't hear my rationale. This was typical. Also, his voice got louder and louder, until he finally shouted, "It makes no difference what I do, you will still give me a low grade, so I just won't work anymore." To him a C is an F. Even though I explained that it means "average," he will not accept the idea. In evaluating international student work, I do allow for some language problems; however K.C.'s work is very incoherent at times. I suspect that some of this is due to language problems, but there are other problems that indicate carelessness--missing words and letters, spelling errors, missing periods, random capitalization, paragraphing problems, scratching out with pen, and wrinkled and torn submissions. I sent K.C. an email that listed some points from this morning's conversation, hoping that his reading skills are better than his listening skills. I framed the message in a way in which I thought he could save face. Additionally, I suggested that further communication should be through email. Can you help me? Both his group and I am frustrated. K.C. only seems to hear what he wants. Thanks--Carol Carol Mohrbacher 459 Ross Hall Iowa State University Ames, Iowa Office: 515 294-9097 Savoir est pouvoir From teaching_composition-admin Wed Jun 14 11:37:09 2000 Received: from mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net (mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net [204.127.131.51]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with ESMTP id LAA10904 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:37:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from worldnet.att.net ([12.79.46.188]) by mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net (InterMail vM.4.01.02.39 201-229-119-122) with ESMTP id <20000614163638.SZUJ9011.mtiwmhc26.worldnet.att.net@worldnet.att.net> for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 16:36:38 +0000 Message-ID: <3947C2F6.6557F5E5@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 14 Jun 2000 12:37:58 -0500 From: "Jean L. Schulte" Reply-To: schulte@worldnet.att.net Organization: Duquesne University X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.7 (Macintosh; I; PPC) X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com" Subject: [Teaching_Composition] Our own voices Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; x-mac-type="54455854"; x-mac-creator="4D4F5353" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Paul asks a really great question, way to circle back to encouraging discussion--by including our own voices/views in the classroom! I can relate to this issue, as it has directly impacted me as a teacher. I remember having this debate about keeping our views out of the classroom with some colleagues, who indicated to me that it's not appropriate for us to "brainwash" students by exposing our views on things--politics, current events, social problems, etc. So, one term, I tried to keep myself, my views, that is, out of the classroom. And I ended up having the worst term ever! The students wrote on evals. that they thought I never really liked them, never got into the classes, seemed remote, and too well prepared--if that makes sense! I think what they meant was that I seemed "scripted" and not at all personal. And I still maintained my practices of having individual office visits to help them with papers, etc., so they did have contact with me. I felt terrible about this, like I'd cheated them and myself. From then on, I decided I really couldn't keep myself/views out of the classroom, and at times during a discussion, I may ask students, once they've shared what they think about the issues at hand, if they'd like to know my views, too. Sometimes, inviting them to discuss with you is a good thing--especially if the issues are complicated or polarizing. Other times, it's interesting to just share your views without asking them if they care to hear them, to get the discussion ball rolling. But I think that creating this honest environment in the classroom is vital. And as bell hooks says in _Teaching to Transgress_ confession is two-way, that is, if we require students to share their thoughts, so should we. Otherwise, the power relationship is unbalanced. This also brings up issues of authority in the classroom, don't you think? We need to guide them toward better critical thinking and practices, but we don't do that by being overbearing or by being pushovers? Jean -- Jean Schulte, PhD Candidate, English schulte@att.net schulte@duq.edu Adjunct Faculty--Duquesne University From teaching_composition-admin Wed Jun 14 11:45:43 2000 Received: from hotmail.com (law-f32.hotmail.com [209.185.131.95]) by greenhouse.eppg.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id LAA11064 for ; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 11:45:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (qmail 52837 invoked by uid 0); 14 Jun 2000 16:45:01 -0000 Message-ID: <20000614164501.52836.qmail@hotmail.com> Received: from 32.100.64.66 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Wed, 14 Jun 2000 09:45:01 PDT X-Originating-IP: [32.100.64.66] From: "Mary Boland" To: teaching_composition@mailman.eppg.com Subject: [Teaching_Composit